June 2017 Running Challenge

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  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    cburke8909 wrote: »
    @mobycarp I was thinking 8:00 as 10k pace. I was thinking bike and elliptical trainer for cross training with swimming on days I can. Yesterday when I did the intervals it did make perfect sense to me to warm up with about 2 miles and cool down with 2 miles. It was a good enough pace yesterday that I was sucking big time by my last interval and less with the first two. The First Plan definitely has a higher goal outcome, if done with the pace they require. I am first and foremost looking to finish my first marathon, I think a sub four hour result is realistic and a 3hour and 30 minute result would mean I trained perfectly and raced perfectly.(Not the likely scenario but it's always good to have a dream.) If I am still thinking about another marathon after October.(I may be cured of that mentality by then but we know that's not going to happen) I will have enough additional input as to who I am and how I run to choose a plan better for me. For now I am taking in all this advice and sticking mainly to this plan. Thanks you are all terrific!!! Having input from all of you gives me confidence in moving forward.

    Just to put things in perspective, a 3:30 marathon implies an average pace of 8:00 per mile, for 26.2 miles. This is not realistic if 8:00 is a reasonable estimate of your 10K pace.

    A 4:00 marathon implies an average pace of 9:10 per mile. Call it 9:00 per mile to allow for less than perfect tangents. Given a half run at an average pace of 8:30, a sub-4 marathon may well be possible for you.

  • cburke8909
    cburke8909 Posts: 990 Member
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    @MobyCarp I kind of knew that a 3:30 is not realistic. I'm thinking that goal would more realistically take more than a year of training (perhaps 2 years) and it would not be my first marathon. After I run my first, I'll have a better idea of how far away I am from that goal. I think I can do it, who knows after the first marathon I may not want to.
  • NikolaosKey
    NikolaosKey Posts: 410 Member
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    Hello fellow runners!

    6/1: 8.7k -w/u, Tempo Run, c/d-
    6/2: 10.3k -again Tempo-
    6/4: 7.1k - urban running
    6/6: 14.1k -Long run-
    6/7: 7.3k -Easy run-
    6/8: 1.5k -treadmill as w/u for strength training-
    6/10: 9k -urban running-
    6/12: 5k -2.5k run, 0.66km swim, 2.5k run-
    6/13: 11k - beach run-
    6/14: 3k -as wu and cd for strength training-
    6/16: 10k -urban run-
    6/17: 7.5k -easy run-
    6/20: 10.1k -painfull run-
    6/21: 11.3k -2k w/u, 7.2k Tempo, 2.1k c/d-
    6/22: 9.6k -Intervals-
    6/24: 10.3k -easy run-
    6/25: 15.2k -Long run-
    6:28: 10.9k -2.6k w/u, 6.6k fartlek, 1.7k c/d-

    Aim: 161.9k/161k

    Stay free of injuries!
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    6/01 - 7.02 miles @ 9:53
    6/03 - 10k Race - 50:56 - 8:14
    6/03 - 5k Race - 27:06 - 8: 35 (back to back with 10k, 7 mins rest between)
    6/05 - 6.51 miles @ 10:31
    6/06 - 6.02 miles @ 9:39
    6/07 - 6.02 miles @ 9:30
    6/08 - 7.01 miles @ 9:37
    6/10 - 15 miles @ 10:46
    6/11 - 9.01 miles @ 10:36 - 90+ degree weather, ran slow to compensate
    6/12 - 8.01 miles @ 10:38 - 90+ degree weather, ran slow to compensate
    6/13 - Thinderstorms forced rest day
    6/14 - 10 miles @10:50 w/ 894' evevation - very humid could not maintain pace
    6/14 - 5 miles @11:06 - second run later in day when not as hot
    6/15 - 9 miles @ 10:58
    6/16 - 12 miles @ 10:46
    6/17 - Rest day
    6/18 - forced rest day due to thunderstorms :frowning:
    6/19 - 13 miles - "long run with fast finish"
    6/20 - 8 miles - moderate run - Low zone 2
    6/21 - 6.55 miles @ 9:43 pace
    6/22 - 2.5 miles @ Zone high zone 2, then 4 miles zone 3 and 4
    6/23 - Planned rest
    6/24 - unplaned rest
    6/25 - 19 miles easy pace
    6/26 - 6.11 miles recovery pace
    6/27 - 6.55 miles @ Avg 9:24 pace
    6/28 - 7 miles@ 9:32 pace

    Summer Goal: Get my marathon pace below 9 minutes.
    Official Marathon PR: 4:11:28

    Next Races (more as I find them):

    07/28/17 - Liberty Mile - 1 mile race just to see what a short run really is :)
    10/14/17 - Stop, Drop, and Run - Fireman style obstacle course - 5km

    05/06/18 - Pittsburgh Marathon - aiming for sub four hours.

    So went for a run, and then looked at my charts afterword. Take a look:

    pchd0mn7b0p1.png

    My pace is faster than the average reported, but that makes since since if you look at the elevation and pace chart, that first mile is killer. :) That is the "trail run" section, which is a groomed trail, but not at all level. I like running it though it is a nicer atmosphere than the roads that make up the rest of the route.

    And I noticed something else. I am routinely covering 6.5 miles in an hour. At the beginning of this running season, I was struggling to do 6 miles in an hour. So I guess that means I am doing something right. :smiley:
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    ctlaws44 wrote: »
    Jogging in place?! This was my hill intervals, I know I was going slow but MFP is just being rude now.

    We really need a LOL reaction for posts like this. :smiley::lol:
  • BettyM1017
    BettyM1017 Posts: 616 Member
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    @KatieJane83 Awesome race report and pics! Love the unique medal. Cherish it!
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    STRAVA vs RUNKeeper

    So here is Strava:
    fn3b7zoakyjl.png

    Same run in RunKeeper:
    ioqadgtn3nc4.png

    Time on the clock was one hour seven mins roughly (did not track seconds), and I never stopped. So that is close enough to RunKeeper to call it a match.

    Apple Workouts matches RunKeeper pretty close.

    Again, it is right around 7 minutes missing from Strava. Seems like it is always 7ish minutes. I did not have Strava installed so could not use it to track this run. I may track a future run with Strava and see if it loses the 7 minutes or not.

    I am using tapiriik.com for syncing. So as a test I deleted the run from Strava, exported the run from RunKeeper and then imported it into Strava. Now Strava reports:

    wt5la2tb2pt2.png

    So, that might mean there is a syncing issue. Need more testing.

  • Mari33a
    Mari33a Posts: 1,093 Member
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    01/06 3.26 miles
    06/06 3.76 miles
    07/06 3.77 miles
    12/06 3.79 miles
    13/06 3.77 miles
    14/06 4 miles
    16/06 3.62 miles
    18/06 3.82 miles
    19/06 4.10 miles
    20/06 4.26 miles
    21/06 4.01 miles
    22/06 5.01 miles
    23/06 4.03 miles
    28/06 5.14 miles


    exercise.png

  • BettyM1017
    BettyM1017 Posts: 616 Member
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    June 28 – 10 miles Long Run

    Total: 97.35 miles/100 miles

    Upcoming Race:
    July 21 - St. Pete Beach Series, Race #2, 5K
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    @PastorVincent interesting info. It does look like a sync issue tapiriik.com, I never heard of that site before.

    I forgot that runkeeper doesn't automatically sync with Strava.... That's one of the things I like about using my Garmin and GC, it's directly linked to Strava, runkeeper and mapmyrun, so there's no third party app in betweeb.

    I'm kick g and geeking out over the testing you're doing. It's awesome.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    Lady runners. My wife's birthday is coming up in a couple weeks. She's just getting into running. I was thinking about getting her an Oiselle gift card so sje can try their stuff. Good idea?
  • lporter229
    lporter229 Posts: 4,907 Member
    edited June 2017
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    girlinahat wrote: »
    @lporter229 one thing I have been learning from swimming more is that most of us try and swim too fast. The trick is to slow your stroke down, and you'll go further for less effort.

    Slow down and you won’t get out of breath either. Have you heard of the SWOLF score? It’s a way of training where you add the distance travelled to the number of strokes to get there. So if it takes 25 strokes to do 25m, you have a score of 50. The lower the score the better. My tomtom gives me an actual swolf score (although I don’t think it can measure properly…)

    @girlinahat - Huh, I have never heard of SWOLF. What is a good score to strive for? I know that it usually takes me 14-15 strokes to swim the length of the 25m pool (I count when I swim because I have a numbers compulsion kind of thing going on), but I suspect that I am counting every other stroke as I breath. I will pay closer attention next time to be sure. If this is the case, I guess my SWOLF score would be 53-55.

  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    MobyCarp wrote: »
    girlinahat wrote: »
    cburke8909 wrote: »
    @MobyCarp @PastorVincent and @girlinahat that's the plan she listed. The reason for additional run is because it's lack of runs makes me less than 100% confident in the plan. I like the three workouts quality but I think at least one more easy day of running makes more sense. I would even think 2 easy runs a week wouldn't hurt. I think the designer of the plan is emphasizing recovery and rest, which can come from those intentional slow paced runs. The plan suggests two additional workouts a week.

    But it's a plan that has been tested AS IS. It may make more sense to you to add in an extra easy workout, but isn't the whole point of the plan that you SHOULDN'T add in an extra run? if you add in runs, you are no longer following the plan.

    I would follow it as it is set for a period of say 6-8 weeks and see what improvements you can get. Add in easy runs after that if you are not seeing improvement

    It's an interesting plan, with an interesting story behind hit. The first thing that struck me was, this is not a plan that was used for first time marathon runners. It is a plan that was used by experienced, established distance runners who were substantially cross-training in other sports. I question how well it would work for people who have not already established a record of consistent marathon finishes.

    The next thing that I found interesting was the target paces, which are all based off a 10K race pace. If I take my two most recent 10K races and round the pace up to the nearest half minute, that gives me some numbers I can work with and think about. Long run, 10K pace + 60 to 75 seconds per mile. That's a range between what I was targeting for MP and the fast end of my easy range. Okay, I get that for a plan that generally wants faster paces.

    Long tempo, 10K pace + 30 to 35 seconds. A bit slower than the T pace that features prominently in my plan, so I'm guessing "long tempo" means 7 to 10 miles. Mid tempo, 10K pace + 15 to 20 seconds. Right around my T pace. Short tempo, 10K pace. I'm not sure where the break between short and mid tempo should be on runs of 3 to 6 miles.

    Then we get to the intervals. 1600m at 10K pace - 35 to 40 seconds. That puts me under a 6 minute mile. I don't think I have 3 reps of 1600m at that pace. 1200m, 10K pace - 40 to 45 seconds. Essentially my mile race pace. Like running 1200s at R pace. When 600s at R were as much as I could handle yesterday. 800m and 400m paces are a little faster. I might pull out all the stops and hit the target for 400m. I'm not going to hit it for 8 intervals in a row on the first day of training, even if I take full recovery.

    Wow. This target is for runners who are very, very good. It's for runners who are better at short distances than I am, relative to their 10K race pace.

    I note that the plan also encourages 40-45 minutes of cross training on two other days. Since I'm not much of a cyclist and I'm not a swimmer, I have to think in terms of running. Say the cross training is the equivalent of easy running, for cardio purposes. The plan as a whole would be roughly equivalent to a 5 day a week running plan, except replacing two of the easy days with training for the cycling or swimming legs of a tri.

    Yeah, it makes sense in the context of the population of athletes it was developed for. The volume of very fast speed work on Tuesdays looks really aggressive to me, and I think I'd go nuts without the mental release of easier running on Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, or Friday.

    I also noticed that the article was posted in 2006 and describes a program that started in autumn 2003. There's been more than a decade for people to try this and similar ideas and see how it's gone for a larger population of runners than the original group. I suppose people must have tried it; I wonder what the results have been, beyond that initial study? Dr. Google found a contrary opinion of the FIRST Training plan. I don't necessarily agree with everything the critical article says, but it does make some good points.

    I'd be interested to read what @Stoshew71 thinks about the FIRST training plan. He's done a lot more research on training methods than I have.

    Modifying plans are quite common. You cannot expect than any canned plan will work for everyone as is. In fact, you cannot expect than any canned plan is the most appropriate for YOU (whoever "YOU" happends to be).

    The best plans are ones that includes coaching so the coach can provide a custom plan for your current fitness and goals and then tailor it as you report back improvements or concerns on a regular basis. This would also assume the coach would be constantly asking you relevant questions on a very regular basis. Questions like what is your resting heart rate now? What is your current sleep habits like? Any recent stressors? How do you feel while you are doing "x" workout? how do you feel after doing "x" workout? I know Moby is constantly talking to his coach and his coach constantly provides feedback and plan modifications based upon Moby's feedback and honestly answering all of his coach's questions. That's a very good thing to have. Short of that, then you have to have enough knowledge on how to make any canned plan work for you.

    Any plan that concentrates too much on the long run and building the long run mileage in poor proportion to the rest of your week is a poor plan. I know there are a bunch of popular canned plans that do this (i.e. Hal Hidgeons) that I do not agree with. Many of these plans will have your long run represent 40 and even up to 50% of your weekly mileage. Doing this on a regular basis is a recipe for injury. I seen too many of my running friends in my running group follow a plan like Hal's only to end up in a boot (or some other ailment) after they finish their marathon. I am constantly asked how can I keep up my high mileage all year long and not get injured? I always say, there is a formula to it.

    Paces. Threshold or tempo paces should not be based upon 10K time unless your 10K finish represent it. Your true threshold pace can only be measured in a lab on a treadmill with tubes connected to you and I believe they prick your finger for blood. At least the self-test machines will prick your finger for blood. But this pace will be represented in a perfect indoor environment on a treadmill. So even that is at best an estimate. many factors factor in when it comes to your Threshold pace. Is it hot out? if so? how hot? add 30 seconds for every 5 degrees above 60. Hills? Increase your pace by a factor. Didn't get much sleep in the last 3 days? Add a little bit to the pace. Work has you stressed out because of a deadline? You get the point. You can estimate threshold pace by HR (about 80-88% of maximum HR) or a "comfortably hard" if going by effort. It's not quite past your ventilator threshold (the point you begin to breath very labored). The last characteristic says that your threshold pace should be maintained for about an hour I a race environment. Very inexperienced runners, it's probably closer to 40 minutes while elites are actually closer to the 60 minute point. So if it takes you about 50-55 minutes to run a 10K, then 10K pace can be a good estimation of your threshold or T pace for your tempo runs or cruise intervals.

    I know Jack Daniels has paces for I (interval) and R (repeats) based upon your 1 mile pace. I would have to look them up.

    Personally, a first time marathon should be concerned with 3 things. Being able to meet the distance (time on your feet), improve your tempo pace (threshold workouts), and using fat for energy (long slow runs- and some of them fasted or near fasted). If your marathon has hills, maybe it's not a bad idea to include some in your training.

    I and R track workouts would be better once you have experience with the other things I mentioned above or if your goal is for shorter races.

  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    @PastorVincent interesting info. It does look like a sync issue tapiriik.com, I never heard of that site before.

    I forgot that runkeeper doesn't automatically sync with Strava.... That's one of the things I like about using my Garmin and GC, it's directly linked to Strava, runkeeper and mapmyrun, so there's no third party app in betweeb.

    I'm kick g and geeking out over the testing you're doing. It's awesome.

    @MNLittleFinn - Yea, I can MANUALLY sync them without a third party app, but automagic is non-existent. I much prefer automagic, so I plan to test more and see if I can figure out what is going on.
  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    PastorVincent wrote: »
    MNLittleFinn wrote: »
    @PastorVincent interesting info. It does look like a sync issue tapiriik.com, I never heard of that site before.

    I forgot that runkeeper doesn't automatically sync with Strava.... That's one of the things I like about using my Garmin and GC, it's directly linked to Strava, runkeeper and mapmyrun, so there's no third party app in betweeb.

    I'm kick g and geeking out over the testing you're doing. It's awesome.

    @MNLittleFinn - Yea, I can MANUALLY sync them without a third party app, but automagic is non-existent. I much prefer automagic, so I plan to test more and see if I can figure out what is going on.

    Either way, this has been interesting for me to read about. I kind of take for granted that Garmin automatically syncs them.... looking forward to seeing what your testing results in.
  • mk2fit
    mk2fit Posts: 730 Member
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    Thank you @Stoshew71, @PastorVincent and @shrcpr for the welcome. My husband went golfing today so I got in a fairly long 8.21 mile run. All cylinders firing and everything feeling great!

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