Plant based diet

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  • Cecily55
    Cecily55 Posts: 15 Member
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    Sassia wrote: »
    I suppose it depends on whether you mean a vegan/plant based diet or a whole food plant based (WFPB) diet. I am vegan but getting closer to WFPB. I've been vegan for years and had no difference in how I felt, but when I eat exclusively WFPB for a few days I do.

    Absolutely. You can be technically vegan and still eat junk food. I am certainly not following a WFPB diet for ethical reasons, but that doesn't keep me from reaping the health benefits of eating WFPB. I would cheerfully eat a huge porterhouse steak, but the aftereffects just wouldn't be worth it.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,102 Member
    edited June 2017
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    Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?

    I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.
  • tapwaters
    tapwaters Posts: 428 Member
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    I went vegan a long long time ago -- very easy. I went whole foods plant based many times -- slightly harder. Whole foods plant based has some of the best peer-reviewed science behind it being one of the healthiest ways for humans to eat.

    I have been having a hard time with maintenance, so I am giving it another go. Feel free to add me, my diary is open to friends :) You can see what vegan and WFPB looks like.
  • apullum
    apullum Posts: 4,838 Member
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    On the chips discussion: https://www.peta2.com/news/vegan-potato-tortilla-chips/

    Sun chips! Earth balance chips! Doritos! Pop chips! There are sweet potato chips sitting right in front of me this very minute. Nothing in them but sweet potatoes, canola oil, and salt--they're vegan! If you're vegetarian, then most chips would be fine. People use the term "plant based" to encompass all sorts of different diets, from eating mostly plants and a small amount of animal products, to being vegan. It's not clear what OP meant by it.

    Don't even get me started on sweets. I eat chocolate every day. Equal Exchange makes some excellent vegan dark chocolate. The point is that plant based does not mean no sweets or salty snacks, unless that's how the individual chooses to eat.

    OP, I found when I stopped eating meat that I really did have to re-learn how to cook. I grew up in a meat and potatoes family. I had never eaten most vegetables! Even things that seem simple to me now, like substituting soy crumbles for beef in a taco recipe, had to be learned. I'm glad I did it, though. I'm really happy with how I eat now and I wouldn't want to go back to eating meat.
  • jenilla1
    jenilla1 Posts: 11,118 Member
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    Plum5027 wrote: »
    Vegan does not equal plant based diet

    LOL.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    apullum wrote: »
    On the chips discussion: https://www.peta2.com/news/vegan-potato-tortilla-chips/

    Sun chips! Earth balance chips! Doritos! Pop chips! There are sweet potato chips sitting right in front of me this very minute. Nothing in them but sweet potatoes, canola oil, and salt--they're vegan! If you're vegetarian, then most chips would be fine. People use the term "plant based" to encompass all sorts of different diets, from eating mostly plants and a small amount of animal products, to being vegan. It's not clear what OP meant by it.

    Don't even get me started on sweets. I eat chocolate every day. Equal Exchange makes some excellent vegan dark chocolate. The point is that plant based does not mean no sweets or salty snacks, unless that's how the individual chooses to eat.

    OP, I found when I stopped eating meat that I really did have to re-learn how to cook. I grew up in a meat and potatoes family. I had never eaten most vegetables! Even things that seem simple to me now, like substituting soy crumbles for beef in a taco recipe, had to be learned. I'm glad I did it, though. I'm really happy with how I eat now and I wouldn't want to go back to eating meat.

    I had an Equal Exchange bar yesterday with lemon, ginger, and black pepper. It was amazing!
  • tapwaters
    tapwaters Posts: 428 Member
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    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    I only bothered with the first two...your first link doesn't have anything to do with meat consumption...it's about obesity.

    The second link says this at the end...
    "Overall, summary associations were weak in magnitude (i.e. most less than 1.20), processed meat definitions and analytical comparisons were highly variable across studies, and isolating the independent effects of processed meat intake is difficult, given the likely influence of confounding by other dietary and lifestyle factors. Therefore, the currently available epidemiologic evidence is not sufficient to support a clear and unequivocal independent positive association between processed meat consumption and CRC."

    The vast majority of studies around meat are correlation studies and they typically ignore other aspects of diet and overall lifestyle. One can eat quite healthfully eating meat...the problem with the SAD is that it includes a lot of meat and very little veg and fruit...it's a *kitten* diet and that's what most of the correlation studies are looking at, but just saying it's the meat.

    The vast body of research on all aspects of health that look at the effects of red meat and processed meat all point in the same direction: it's not healthy, increases the risks of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and certain kinds of cancers, and is one of the greatest factors included within the SAD that makes people unhealthy.

    Many of the studies narrow it specifically to just meat's impact, another in the '40's put people on a near junk-food vegan diet and their heart health still improved, likely owing to the lack of red meat.

    You can say correlation doesn't mean causation -- and you'd be right -- but the vast body of research says the less meat a person eats the healthier they will be.
  • Ready2Rock206
    Ready2Rock206 Posts: 9,488 Member
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    Plum5027 wrote: »
    Vegan does not equal plant based diet

    I have a co-worker who is a vegetarian and claims to be practically vegan. She doesn't like vegetables. I have no idea what she eats other than chocolate and I think lentils. But it definitely is not vegetables.
  • apullum
    apullum Posts: 4,838 Member
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    janejellyroll wrote: »
    I had an Equal Exchange bar yesterday with lemon, ginger, and black pepper. It was amazing!

    I love that one! I really didn't expect to enjoy it so much since the flavor combination sounds weird to me.
  • Secondhalf35
    Secondhalf35 Posts: 113 Member
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    I'm going to have plant foods most days without denying myself fish and eggs Will be reducing eggs. Once I have my own kitchen I'll be able to start my healthier journey. I'll have my own kitchen July/August. I'm looking forward to feeling healthier and well. Thank you everyone
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    Wtn_Gurl wrote: »
    TheWJordinWJordin wrote: »
    Hard to do for long term. This means no doritos - ever.

    Doritos is not worth all the trouble that being fat does to someone. I can tell you from experience, that now that im eating a whole food plant based diet, Cheetos and Doritos are NOT something i even think about or desire. New foods are attractive to me and i want them.

    What if vegetables are not new to you? I don't quite get the point about new foods unless you assume people are eating a poor diet now (and at some point they will not be new).

    I love trying new things, but love many non new to me things too, and not all the new things are going to be super nutrient dense (although some will be).
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,876 Member
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    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    tapwaters wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?

    I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.

    That's not what the peer-reviewed science says. Most peer-reviewed scientific studies show the absence of animal products is what is majorly beneficial.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193060/
    http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2010/09000/Processed_meat_and_colorectal_cancer__a.2.aspx
    http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TBMJ_UK_TrendMD-0
    http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/5/e001072.short
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070955
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414881?version=meter at null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/217599
    http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/43/10/2556.short

    I mean, I could go on.

    So I went through the studies one by one, yep too much time on my hands.

    First study Discusses obesity in Saudi Arabia. The only mention of meat was that those who ate more meat were more likely to be obese. I always find this silly. If you are obese, you consume more calories overall. This includes, you guessed it, meat. Those who eat more generally eat more of everything. This same study mentions that those who ate more vegetables were not less likely to be obese. In a culture where vegetables are part of day to day cooking this is to be expected because, again, if you are obese you eat a lot of everything including vegetables.

    The rest discuss Association between red and processed meat and several outcomes. One review mentions the association for colorectal cancer is there, but quite weak overall. The rest shows association with worse outcomes for those who consumed the highest amount compared to those who consumed the lowest amount of red and processed meat, and white meat showed reduced mortality risk.

    The study showing overall meat consumption association showed modest link not controlled for BMI. I'm wary of modest associations because of confounding factors. This shows clearly in that study, that the choices made in the highest quintile of red meat consumers contained more processed meats and less white meat, they also tended to have lower physical activity level and higher energy intake. There is your link. People who are not as interested in the healthfulness of their lifestyle tend to have slightly shorter lives.

    Basically, a bunch of weak links for all kinds of bad stuff for red and processed meat, and reverse links for white meat. White meat is not exactly plant-based, and weak links are not exactly easy to attribute to meat consumption. A meat eater can be just as healthy as a plant-based eater, all things equal.

    That's pretty much what I figured which is why I stopped at 2...thanks for reading all of them.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 32,102 Member
    edited June 2017
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    cwolfman13 wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    tapwaters wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?

    I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.

    That's not what the peer-reviewed science says. Most peer-reviewed scientific studies show the absence of animal products is what is majorly beneficial.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193060/
    http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2010/09000/Processed_meat_and_colorectal_cancer__a.2.aspx
    http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TBMJ_UK_TrendMD-0
    http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/5/e001072.short
    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070955
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414881?version=meter at null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
    http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/217599
    http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/43/10/2556.short

    I mean, I could go on.

    So I went through the studies one by one, yep too much time on my hands.

    First study Discusses obesity in Saudi Arabia. The only mention of meat was that those who ate more meat were more likely to be obese. I always find this silly. If you are obese, you consume more calories overall. This includes, you guessed it, meat. Those who eat more generally eat more of everything. This same study mentions that those who ate more vegetables were not less likely to be obese. In a culture where vegetables are part of day to day cooking this is to be expected because, again, if you are obese you eat a lot of everything including vegetables.

    The rest discuss Association between red and processed meat and several outcomes. One review mentions the association for colorectal cancer is there, but quite weak overall. The rest shows association with worse outcomes for those who consumed the highest amount compared to those who consumed the lowest amount of red and processed meat, and white meat showed reduced mortality risk.

    The study showing overall meat consumption association showed modest link not controlled for BMI. I'm wary of modest associations because of confounding factors. This shows clearly in that study, that the choices made in the highest quintile of red meat consumers contained more processed meats and less white meat, they also tended to have lower physical activity level and higher energy intake. There is your link. People who are not as interested in the healthfulness of their lifestyle tend to have slightly shorter lives.

    Basically, a bunch of weak links for all kinds of bad stuff for red and processed meat, and reverse links for white meat. White meat is not exactly plant-based, and weak links are not exactly easy to attribute to meat consumption. A meat eater can be just as healthy as a plant-based eater, all things equal.

    That's pretty much what I figured which is why I stopped at 2...thanks for reading all of them.

    And thanks to both of you, @amusedmonkey and @cwolfman13 for picking up the meat discussion I foolishly started. I haven't eaten any ( intentionally, anyway ;) ) since 1974, so I'm not very up on current research. But I do know a bunch of healthy, active people my age and older who eat quite a bit of it . . . but they eat plenty of veggies, too.
  • Cecily55
    Cecily55 Posts: 15 Member
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    All things in moderation, including moderation. It's the moderation part I struggle with.

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