Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
CICO/Thermodynamics/Insulin- discuss!!
Options
Replies
-
RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Make up your mind.6 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Put on muscle without doing anything?
I've actually seen complaints from people using the juice complaining they aren't gaining much, while not able to do much. And the regular forum users (not here on MFP) inform them they still need to workout hard to see results.
If in a diet, there will almost always be available room in the liver and muscles for more glucose storage.
Muscle glucose is only going to be available to the working muscle BTW - that's not available for general energy source, can't be put back into the bloodstream.
While the hormones can indeed effect where they are put, and where pulled from while present (insulin) - in the face of deficit eating - it really doesn't matter enough in the course of a day.
Just as some blogs have done using research study numbers, you can go through the day and figure out what's being used when, for 2 difference eating diets, and the end result is the same when the day is done.
Personal adherence during that day may indeed be a factor, but those factors don't apply to all equally.
Only with huge extremes of lots of protein compared to very little protein and lots of fat, is TEF a decent factor.
edited to add - define significant in terms of thyroid issues and lowered metabolism. Because there are survey's of people to show just how minor it is. Now, their TDEE because they are tired not wanting to move - sure.5 -
stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Make up your mind.
About what?1 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
So you're suggesting that muscle mass is simply constructed due to increased testosterone and diminished due to lack of testosterone? It plays a factor, but a statistically minor one.
Same with thyroid. I am sans thyroid and lose/gain very similar to anyone else - the primary driver to metabolism being muscle mass. Clinical evidence shows that thyroid hormone impacts Resting Energy Expenditure (REE) by ~5% over population and this is among people with no thyroid and no supplementation. This amounts to 80 kcals/day out of a 1600 kcal/day budget.
Hormonal shifts result in increased cellular uptake (water weight), but this is very short term and an essential defensive measure. While this may impact your weight it has little to do with changes to body fat %.6 -
RAD_Fitness wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Make up your mind.
About what?
Whether it's drugs or diet.
0 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
Except, the primary way to maintain muscle and maximise fat loss is adequate protein alongside strength training. And that is stressed quite a lot.
For the vast majority of the population, including those with specific aesthetic goals that will achieved through some sort of strength straining then nutrient partitioning, hormone levels (which, incidentally, is also often addressed by the recommendation to take diet breaks and eat at maintenance for one or two weeks) and macros beyond hitting protein and enough fat for nutrient absorption then we get to majoring in the minors.
There's not many wanting to get a physique for bikini or bodybuilding competitions. There's not many who want to look like a fitness model. Most people just want to be a healthy weight and look good, to them, in their clothes.
Do you really think 50 year old Joe or Josephine Blogs wants to be drowned in the minors you're so obsessed with?
I'm obsessed with helping people succeed.
Hormones is not a "minor".
And I'm not even sure what you're saying in the second paragraph so I can't even respond.
So tell me. A 300lb female comes to you because she's been told by her doctor she needs to get control of her weight. It's the kick up her backside she needed but is overwhelmed and doesn't know where to start. She's always been overweight, grew up in a family where everyone is obese. What is your advice? Exactly as you would give it, not a vague synopsis but exactly what you would say at that initial consultation.
Going to quote myself because I genuinely want to know the answer from @RAD_Fitness
Still waiting.8 -
VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
Except, the primary way to maintain muscle and maximise fat loss is adequate protein alongside strength training. And that is stressed quite a lot.
For the vast majority of the population, including those with specific aesthetic goals that will achieved through some sort of strength straining then nutrient partitioning, hormone levels (which, incidentally, is also often addressed by the recommendation to take diet breaks and eat at maintenance for one or two weeks) and macros beyond hitting protein and enough fat for nutrient absorption then we get to majoring in the minors.
There's not many wanting to get a physique for bikini or bodybuilding competitions. There's not many who want to look like a fitness model. Most people just want to be a healthy weight and look good, to them, in their clothes.
Do you really think 50 year old Joe or Josephine Blogs wants to be drowned in the minors you're so obsessed with?
I'm obsessed with helping people succeed.
Hormones is not a "minor".
And I'm not even sure what you're saying in the second paragraph so I can't even respond.
So tell me. A 300lb female comes to you because she's been told by her doctor she needs to get control of her weight. It's the kick up her backside she needed but is overwhelmed and doesn't know where to start. She's always been overweight, grew up in a family where everyone is obese. What is your advice? Exactly as you would give it, not a vague synopsis but exactly what you would say at that initial consultation.
Going to quote myself because I genuinely want to know the answer from @RAD_Fitness
Still waiting.
Don't hold your breath......1 -
stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Make up your mind.
About what?
Whether it's drugs or diet.
The whole point I am making is that hormones are not a minor factor, but a major factor in body composition. The drugs were brought on when it seemed as though ninerbuff seemed to imply that not only do I, but others I work with use other things than just food to get to a low bf %.6 -
Yes that's true, but it sounds more like you're insisting that everyone in the general population is bereft of correct hormone levels. The general population just needs to do CICO to lose weight, not try to manipulate their hormones. There are people that have hormonal issues, but then they need to discuss that with their endocrinologist and get a on plan to balance that out.RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.
Lol, who said I'm affiliated with anyone doing competitions? I've competed and have first hand experience of all the shenanigans that competitors do to get ready for a comp. You gonna be honest here? Did you use anything supplement or drug wise to get ready for competition or did you just do it with just food and exercise? Because again realize that the majority of people in the general population aren't looking to look like a competitor and don't need to manipulate their hormones to just lose some weight.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
Again it sounds like you are insisting that the general population has a problem with hormone regulation. The majority don't and don't need to worry about this.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Oh I'm not implying it. I'm betting on it. Again be honest: Did you ONLY USE FOOD to get in competition shape? I doubt it. And I don't really care cause I have yet to see anyone (even a natural) do it with only food and nothing else.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »RAD_Fitness wrote: »
Of course hormones matter. But you're speaking of the general population. I betting you're more on the level of concern with COMPETITION since you compete. And if we're being honest in competition, there are no competitors I know of who just use FOOD ONLY to prep for a contest and low body fat %. Supplements and other drugs are definitely implemented into their diets.RAD_Fitness wrote: »Firstly, I'm not trying to bash anyone for how you've lost your weight. That's the last thing I want anyone to see this as.
But just because you lose a lot of weight doing something, doesn't mean what you did was efficient or the best way. And losing a lot of weight and doing a little research doesn't instantly make you a Nutrition expert.
I just hate how on here it's ALL about CICO when there are a lot more things that effect FAT LOSS.
Edited: to explain what I mean by there are a lot more things that effect fat loss; hormone levels (testosterone, estrogen, insulin, growth hormone), stress levels, types of food you're eating (macro split)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Firstly, just because your friends doing competitions are on drugs, doesn't mean everyone is.
Secondly, hormones play more of a role than anything in terms of fat loss and muscle gain. They literally change the way your body works for the good or for the bad depending on what they're doing. They literally effect CICO to the point people can have a lot of trouble losing any weight at all and to the point where muscle gain is pretty much inevitable. They change the way your body absorbs nutrients, it's literally the most important part in determining our body composition.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
Make up your mind.
About what?
Whether it's drugs or diet.
The whole point I am making is that hormones are not a minor factor, but a major factor in body composition. The drugs were brought on when it seemed as though ninerbuff seemed to imply that not only do I, but others I work with use other things than just food to get to a low bf %.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »CynthiasChoice wrote: »It's harder to overeat on Keto foods than it is on ho-ho's and nachos, IMO. Keto foods are very satisfying and I naturally want to stop after a reasonable serving. But ho-ho's and nachos? Back in the day, I could easily eat 4 servings without ever feeling satisfied. Well maybe not ho-ho's - those are disgusting - but donuts or cookies:)
I'm not keto and I've never had a hoho in my life and occasionally have nachos...
Just because one is not keto does not mean they're just eating *kitten*...I seem to see this from keto people a lot...this odd assumption that if you're not eating keto then you're just eating nothing but highly processed and refined carbs...it's utterly ridiculous.
The ho-ho's and nachos reference came from the post prior to mine from supaflyrobby1. I didn't say a Keto diet was superior or that those not on Keto were eating only "junk" food. I'm not even a "Keto person" and as another poster pointed out, my term "Keto foods" is strange. I agree. Further, my use of IMO should really have been "in my own experience" as VintageFeline points out. So many errors in so few words! lol! I'll make an effort to be more precise in future comments.
Rewrite: In my own personal experience, it's easier for me to eat moderately when I'm eating foods that contain primarily protein and fat, and it's difficult for me to eat moderately when I'm eating foods that contain high glycemic load carbs and fat. I'm sure there are lots of people like me, and lots of people who don't share my experience. I have no desire for us all to be the same and I don't seek to convert anyone.
Point is, for those like me that tend to binge on things like nachos and donuts, following a low carb diet facilitates compliance with a calorie restricted diet. I prefer to focus my attention on what will help me comply. Focusing only on CICO spelled disaster for me in the past because I hadn't yet discovered that it's not in my best interest to satisfy my cravings for carbs until I hit my calorie limit for the day. I would end up hungry and cranky and so miserable that I ended up abandoning my plan. Once I experienced how eating sufficient protein and fat could turn off my appetite, compliance was easy and sustainable.
We are not all the same, thank God. Some people manage very well focusing on CICO regardless of what their macro balance is. Others like me need to fine tune their macros in order to comply with a calorie deficit happily.5 -
Again it sounds like you are insisting that the general population has a problem with hormone regulation. The majority don't and don't need to worry about this.RAD_Fitness wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Lol, I want to see someone sitting on their *kitten* eating no protein who has "pretty much inevitable" muscle gain because of hormones that did not come out of a syringe.
Well that it exactly what I am saying. Guys or girls are on drugs are able to put on muscle essentially without doing anything. Same goes the opposite when guys or girls are low on test, they will have a lot of trouble putting on muscle mass. Same goes for your thyroid hormone, if you have a issue with your thyroid, it doesn't matter what mfp says it thinks your calories burned are, they can be significantly lower. I am not saying CICO is not true because of your hormones, I am saying, hormones effect where excess calories get stored (muscle or fat) and where additional calories are taken from (muscle or fat) to a large extent.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That has been my impression too. And of course that's as silly as saying that your neurons are the most important thing for running because your legs don't work properly if your brain doesn't send the signals to your leg muscles so you don't look like the guy from QWOP. Technically correct but not something any healthy person has to waste even a single thought on as those things work fine subconsciously.4 -
I know I'm labouring the point but I asked what advice @RAD_Fitness would give my theoretical 300lb newb on page 1. Then twice again on page 3. If someone thinks they want to help people with better advice than the rest of us have because of factoring in hormones and nutrient partitioning then I want to know what that looks like in practice. What specific advice are you giving that morbidly obese individual who comes from a morbidly obese family with little knowledge of human physiology or what a well rounded diet looks like?
I'm interested to know. Because you are so vehement in your assertion we are all giving out terrible advice but I have yet to see you putting into practice by way of detailed answer how to implement the use of nutrient partitioning or exactly how we figure out what our hormones are doing and how to maximise their functioning to help weight loss.10 -
In denouncing CICO early in the article, Dr. Fung creates this strawman: "So, eating a calorie reduced, low fat, high carbohydrate diet, insulin levels stay high, but calories comes down." I stopped reading there with the assumption that Dr. Fung then demolishes his strawman and goes on about insulin regulation.
That wasn't the first strawman he created in that article, either. He is a credentialed doctor and he is trained in understanding and treating pancreatic production of insulin, but he's talking down to us and that grates on me.
5 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »In denouncing CICO early in the article, Dr. Fung creates this strawman: "So, eating a calorie reduced, low fat, high carbohydrate diet, insulin levels stay high, but calories comes down." I stopped reading there with the assumption that Dr. Fung then demolishes his strawman and goes on about insulin regulation.
That wasn't the first strawman he created in that article, either. He is a credentialed doctor and he is trained in understanding and treating pancreatic production of insulin, but he's talking down to us and that grates on me.
It's interesting that you should mention Dr. Fung's "credentials", especially when you consider that a quick check on PubMed reveals that he has authored exactly ZERO articles in the peer reviewed medical literature on Nephrology or anything else for that matter. This is a common tactic of quacks. They will shout it to the mountaintops in glorified blogs or in books they might author, but they are unwilling to subject their conclusions to the rigors of scientific evidence which can be properly evaluated for efficacy and validity. There is a common phrase in scientific research which states that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". It's up to him to provide this or he can go back to signing books at Barnes and Noble.3 -
I can't post ALL of my clients obviously, but this is one who was featured in our local paper. And in the article, he states that all I did for him to lose weight was have him learn how to moderate food and get some form of exercise in. Got him from 355lbs down to 265lbs in a year and he's kept it off since then.
No need of "manipulating" hormones as mention by RAD_fitness. Again, CICO works just fine if applied correctly.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
13 -
I can't post ALL of my clients obviously, but this is one who was featured in our local paper. And in the article, he states that all I did for him to lose weight was have him learn how to moderate food and get some form of exercise in. Got him from 355lbs down to 265lbs in a year and he's kept it off since then.
No need of "manipulating" hormones as mention by RAD_fitness. Again, CICO works just fine if applied correctly.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
But do you really care about helping people be successful? Because sure he lost 90lbs but 90lbs of what? Were his hormones such that all that wasn't muscle?7 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Rewrite: In my own personal experience, it's easier for me to eat moderately when I'm eating foods that contain primarily protein and fat, and it's difficult for me to eat moderately when I'm eating foods that contain high glycemic load carbs and fat. I'm sure there are lots of people like me, and lots of people who don't share my experience. I have no desire for us all to be the same and I don't seek to convert anyone.
I think there are lots of people like you in this. I am (to some extent, I also find foods that include more fiber and whole food carbs like potatoes and sweet potatoes and legumes quite easy to eat moderately and some foods that are primarily fat, like cheese, harder to eat moderately). More significantly, since I don't eat just one kind of food, I also find it easy enough to eat moderately when I eat MOSTLY foods that have protein, fiber, and some fat (I find fat in a food doesn't make it more filling, but fat in my overall diet makes me more satisfied). If I also include, in smaller amounts, some foods that would be less filling on their own (like a little cheese or a little ice cream or some chocolate), that doesn't affect how filling my overall diet is. It might be different if I were trying to keep a huge deficit, of course.Point is, for those like me that tend to binge on things like nachos and donuts, following a low carb diet facilitates compliance with a calorie restricted diet.
Well, bingeing is really a separate thing from not finding food filling, and I think will differ from binger to binger, although for some bingers putting foods off-limits can be harmful.
To the extent you mean to be talking about foods being filling or not, and these foods not being filling, or simply avoiding these foods, AGAIN, following a low fat diet would have the same effect, or following simply a nutrition conscious diet, as you aren't going to be eating lots of nachos or donuts within a limited number of calories if focusing on getting nutrition. There's nothing special about low carbing here. (I low carb, but I eat nachos and donuts about as often as I did before low carbing, which is almost never. For me the calories from those foods aren't really worth it. If I loved them, I'd find a way to fit them in, of course.)Focusing only on CICO spelled disaster for me in the past because I hadn't yet discovered that it's not in my best interest to satisfy my cravings for carbs until I hit my calorie limit for the day.
Well, first, from what you said above, it's NOT carbs you were craving, but foods that are a mix of certain kinds of carbs and fat. I hate that people act as if all carbs are the same and the usual so called junk food is all "carbs" when it's as much fat.
Beyond that, this idea of "only focusing on CICO" meaning ignoring the effect of foods on you, satiety, nutrition is a strawman. I do CICO to lose, and also tend to low carb, because I prefer eating that way, and don't eat a lot of low nutritent foods because I find it easier when I do not. That doesn't mean CICO is wrong or doesn't work or isn't what I'm doing (or what people keto-ing are doing).
The main thing is that there ARE differences between people in what helps them keep a deficit or eat at maintenance when that's appropriate, so that's why CICO is the right answer -- each person then gets to figure out what works for them to eat the right amounts vs. thinking the solution for everyone is low carb or whatever.
NOTHING about CICO means ignore macros or nutrition. That seems to be something that you created as a strawman. It does mean there's no correct macro breakdown that's best for weight loss in general or that everyone needs to follow.5
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 388 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.2K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 918 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions