Ketogenic diet

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Replies

  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 5,958 Member
    edited September 2017
    Yes? No? Why?

    It depends...
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
    jdlobb wrote: »
    I don't know why it's so complicated for people to just try different things or modify their plans to work for themselves, and accept that others do the same and get different results.

    I eat 80g of Carbs a day or less. When I increase that I feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic. Other people would feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic if they ONLY ate 80g of carbs a day.

    There is no single "recipe" for being successful on a diet. Run identical studies with diets on different groups of people and you will likely get different, and possibly contradictory, findings.

    If you see a diet that sounds like it would work for you, try it. If it doesn't work for you. Stop it and try something different.

    It's really not that freakin' difficult to understand that different diets effect different people in different ways.

    This statement is directed as much as the "CICO ONLY FOREVER AND ALWAYS" people as it is at "KETO IS MAGIC" people.

    I'll say it again, and say it a thousand more times in my life probably.

    To lose weight the only thing you need to do is eat a calorie deficit.
    To be healthy you need to do a lot MORE than just eat a calorie deficit.

    What that "more" is, varies WIDELY from person to person.

    Not sure what you don't understand about CICO, but it not a way of eating, it is a math formula for gaining, losing, or maintaining weight. Unless you know of a way to gain weight while eating in a calorie deficit?
  • J72FIT
    J72FIT Posts: 5,958 Member
    All diets boil down to energy balance when it comes to weight loss or gain. CICO...
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    jdlobb wrote: »
    I don't know why it's so complicated for people to just try different things or modify their plans to work for themselves, and accept that others do the same and get different results.

    I eat 80g of Carbs a day or less. When I increase that I feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic. Other people would feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic if they ONLY ate 80g of carbs a day.

    There is no single "recipe" for being successful on a diet. Run identical studies with diets on different groups of people and you will likely get different, and possibly contradictory, findings.

    If you see a diet that sounds like it would work for you, try it. If it doesn't work for you. Stop it and try something different.

    It's really not that freakin' difficult to understand that different diets effect different people in different ways.

    This statement is directed as much as the "CICO ONLY FOREVER AND ALWAYS" people as it is at "KETO IS MAGIC" people.

    I'll say it again, and say it a thousand more times in my life probably.

    To lose weight the only thing you need to do is eat a calorie deficit.
    To be healthy you need to do a lot MORE than just eat a calorie deficit.

    What that "more" is, varies WIDELY from person to person.

    CICO describes how weight loss happens. But I've never seen someone who acknowledges that argue that people shouldn't also pay attention to what helps them, as an individual, meet their calorie goal.

    It's people who advocate for the reality of CICO that you'll also see letting people know that they can skip breakfast if they don't want it, but that they should eat breakfast if it helps them meet their goals. Same with things like IF or eating more protein/fewer carbohydrates or making more meals at home or whatever.

    It's acknowledging the reality of how people actually gain and lose weight that makes it possible for us to understand that different dietary strategies will work for different people because they're all just ways to make it easier for us to hit our calorie goal, the thing that truly matters.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    jdlobb wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    jdlobb wrote: »
    I don't know why it's so complicated for people to just try different things or modify their plans to work for themselves, and accept that others do the same and get different results.

    I eat 80g of Carbs a day or less. When I increase that I feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic. Other people would feel bloated, hungry, and lethargic if they ONLY ate 80g of carbs a day.

    There is no single "recipe" for being successful on a diet. Run identical studies with diets on different groups of people and you will likely get different, and possibly contradictory, findings.

    If you see a diet that sounds like it would work for you, try it. If it doesn't work for you. Stop it and try something different.

    It's really not that freakin' difficult to understand that different diets effect different people in different ways.

    This statement is directed as much as the "CICO ONLY FOREVER AND ALWAYS" people as it is at "KETO IS MAGIC" people.

    I'll say it again, and say it a thousand more times in my life probably.

    To lose weight the only thing you need to do is eat a calorie deficit.
    To be healthy you need to do a lot MORE than just eat a calorie deficit.

    What that "more" is, varies WIDELY from person to person.

    Not sure what you don't understand about CICO, but it not a way of eating, it is a math formula for gaining, losing, or maintaining weight. Unless you know of a way to gain weight while eating in a calorie deficit?

    CICO is the GOAL, not the means. There are countless ways of successfully achieving and sustaining a calorie deficit.

    This is true, and I largely agreed with your post, but saying CICO is what matters for weight loss does not imply that one should not think about strategies that works for them to lower calories.

    I find it easier to eat fewer calories (and just am happier) eating a diet lower in carbs and higher in fat than, say, MFP's defaults. I also find it easier to limit my sweets more than some do, but not cut them entirely out (as some do). I also find it extremely important to not graze and to eat larger meals (2-3) vs. snacking. On the other hand, rules that help some (like not eating after 7) would not work with my lifestyle, as I routinely eat dinner at 9-10. I also think it's best for me to build all meals around protein and vegetables.

    Point is that whatever my personal rules, I am losing weight through CICO. CICO is what ultimately matters for weight loss. When I am saying that, I am not saying do not change your diet in any way or mindlessly cut everything by a percentage or never experiment to see if things might make it easier. The only people who claim CICO means anything like that are anti CICO (for whatever reason) who seem to me making up a strawman, IME.
    Simply saying "Just eat less calories" is about the single most unhelpful and pointless piece of diet advice imaginable.

    I disagree, because what works differs from person to person, and being told rules that don't work for everyone (like mine for me, above) is NOT helpful. Knowing you just need to figure out how to get a deficit is helpful and assumes the person is smart enough to figure out what works for them without nonsense about having to do stuff they may not find helpful.
  • MelodiousMermaid
    MelodiousMermaid Posts: 380 Member
    Yes, for these reasons:

    1) It is something that I am doing that works with foods I like (produce/legumes/seeds/meats/[limited for now] dairy) that I can see being able to sustain the vast majority of the time that also makes me feel great and functional. Good, high-quality fuel.

    2) I know that after a while, I will have the opportunity to increase my carb intake at least somewhat and enjoy more of the higher carb produce items that have caused me trouble on occasion.

    3) Now that I've been on it a while, I know that if I choose to fall off the wagon at a special event (perhaps 2-4x/year), I will only experience a temporary setback and I will be able to get back into things pretty easily. I suppose this is interrelated to #1, but in my eyes it's a bit different, as my relationship with food has a pretty rocky past. The freedom is liberating, mentally and physically.

    A recommendation for you: Seek out information to learn more about it. Search for LC/Keto threads and see what experiences/issues others are having. There has been a pretty consistent history of issues with non-LC/K users on open forums, though, so take things with a grain of salt and see what is going to be the best match for you now and going into the future. Then rock whatever you choose! Best of luck on your journey!
  • jdlobb
    jdlobb Posts: 1,232 Member
    hsmith0930 wrote: »
    bweath2 wrote: »

    since a calorie is a unit of energy its would be the same if you burned say 20,000 BTUs of propane vs natural gas. sure the heat may be a little different(one may feel warmer than the other to you) but its still burning at that amount of btus. you dont lose weight faster on keto either. its mostly water weight at first. how do you know you also maintained muscle? did you get a dexa scan or something similar before and during the weight loss phase?. you may feel better doing keto and thats fine, but saying CICO is bull is bull. if you lost energy lifting doing a certain diet it could be you werent getting enough calories or you werent eating enough of a certain macro. low carbs for a lot of people will make their lifting and other activities suffer,for some it may give them more energy but it still comes down to CICO .

    This relects my belief on CICO:
    "Newton’s first law of thermodynamics states that the energy of an isolated system is constant. In other words, in a laboratory, or “isolated system,” 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda are, in fact, the same. I’m not saying Newton was wrong about that. It’s true that when burned in a laboratory setting, 1,000 calories of broccoli and 1,000 calories of soda would indeed release the same amount of energy.

    But sorry, Mr. Newton; your law of thermodynamics doesn’t apply in living, breathing, digesting systems. When you eat food, the “isolated system” part of the equation goes out the window. The food interacts with your biology, a complex adaptive system that instantly transforms every bite.” -Dr. Mark Hyman

    How does Hyman conclude that the "complex adaptive system" of my body will get a different amount of energy from 1,000 calories of soda and 1,000 calories of broccoli? What exact transformation is he saying will take place?

    It's all about hormonal responses to food. Fiber is not used as energy IN THE BODY. However, it IS counted in the calorie counts. It does not trigger insulin to circulate and pick it up to either shuffle off to be used right away, store in the liver, or stored in fat cells. Sugar, however, DOES make insulin spike. The insulin then has to figure out where the sugar should go. If the liver is full, and the body has no immediate need of energy, the sugar will be stored in fat cells.

    Because different Macronutrients are broken down and used differently in the body, they do not "burn" equally. Fiber doesn't burn the same way protein burns. Sugar doesn't burn the same way fat burns. They elicit different hormonal responses and thus are treated differently in the body. CAN you eat a surplus of calories on a low carb/ketogenic diet and gain weight? Yes. Calories still matter. However, a lot of people can eat a lot more calories on a low carb diet and still lose weight than if they were eating a standard high carb diet.

    no, see, this is the kind of thing I have to woo from that side.

    Diet will affect how your insulin behaves, but this has a much greater impact on how hungry you are, and thus how likely you are to overeat in response, than it does on the actual behavior of how your body treats the calories you feed into it.

    If somebody is getting better weight loss results eating more calories on a Keto diet than on a higher carb diet I would posit that they were probably underestimating the calories they were consuming on the higher carb diet, which is very easy to do.

    I was able to increase my calorie goals when I cut carbs not because I was suddenly burning more calories, but because I find it easier to accurately weigh and track fat and protein dense foods than carb dense foods, and I"m far less likely to "graze" or "snack" if I'm actively shunning carbs.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    CICO just describes what's going on inside the body...

    Yes, but it sort of can be a goal too. The goal would be:

    CI=CO

    or

    CI>CO

    or

    CI<CO

    Depending on your desired outcome, of course.