Ketogenic diet

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  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    bweath2 wrote: »
    @psuLemon Agreed. I can be quite nit picky. Outside of very extreme dietary conditions (starvation, very low protein, etc.) BMR will stay pretty consistant based on LBM. And as far as that study goes, I don't know anyone who is trying to lose weigt and consumes 25% of their calories from HFCS, so it's irrelevant.
    @stevencloser Yes, outside of extreme conditions your body will not eat muscle. However I have watched people go on very low protein diets(because it was promoted as healthy) ans lose the majority of their muscle).
    The effect of diet on CO and fat loss I was refering to is mainly due to how different macro ratios can affect the energy level that you feel. 2000 cals of high carb makes me feel like watching Netflix. 2000 cals on keto makes me feel like cage fighting, and makes me fidgetty.
    @lemurcat12 I appreciate such a thorough response. Totally agree. For most dieters it's better to simplify. The tricks tend not to work. Even if the cinnamon, cayenne pepper, and green tea do increase metabolism, it will be a slight change and you will probably subconsciously eat a little more to compensate. Very well put about CICO. Different diets can make the CI easier to adhere to for each individual. And different diets will increase or decrease the CO for each individual because of how it makes them feel, subconscious movement, etc. And I agree that the study is irrelevant, because no dieter would ever drink that much Coke. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

    The RDA to not become deficient in a normal person is a measly ~50ish grams. 200 calories. 10% of calories for a 2000 a day person. And the way RDA works is that that has a safety buffer so the actual amount you'd need is likely a good bit lower. Even on a low protein diet, which was nowhere ever promoted as healthy on a large scale as far as I've seen, you'd get that much. You'd have to get consistently something like no more than 10-20 grams of protein a day to actually have your muscles waste away like that. That's not a diet, that's stupidity.
  • atjays
    atjays Posts: 798 Member
    bazooka2 wrote: »
    I just came off of it for several reasons. It was great at first and I dropped over 3 lbs in a week but my BMs were almost nonexistent and I had to give it up. The diet restrictions were too much for me as well.

    When I came off of it I was real careful about my calories, eating what I was before I started eating keto, but I still endied up gaining back most of what I lost. It's not for me and doubt I'll do it again. Plus I've been pretty successful with a balanced diet. (25 lbs lost so far :smile: )

    (My first post btw. Hi everyone)

    BMs were likely due to no fiber in your diet and not eating enough. Also, everyone has that "great" first week, it's just your body losing water. That's precisely why everyone claims each diet fad as extraordinary. You literally can do any diet (eat less) and drop lbs the first week.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    Two things, though today is not my best day since I'm flaring the brain fog is strong:

    Didn't Hall show that raised EE for keto diets lasted only 3 weeks while the body switched over to producing ketones?

    Didn't Hall also show that when controlling for calories and protein, CO would be the same or better for higher carb diets?

    I'm not following how a keto diet "raises" CO?

    Protein is thermogenic, fat is the least thermogenic macro, and most here on MFP do have similar if not higher protein intakes to those following keto.

    You are correct. Fat loss was the same and there was a short trrm increase in EE due to the increased oxygen requirement to initially produce ketos.

    There was debate if some of that was also due to transient increase in neat. But you cant control everything.

    Aren't transient increases with NEAT likely individual rather than diet-specific, though?

    I think that was brought out in over-feeding studies, IIRC, or is true with the case of hard gainers.

    Help me out here, something I read is niggling at the back of my brain, there's just a subset of people who move more under certain stimulus.

    Semi-related: this just came up in my news feed not long ago and it's a great read on everything you ever wanted to know about NEAT: http://ajpendo.physiology.org/content/286/5/E675

    That is indeed a great read! Highly recommend! @WinoGelato

    I became very interested in NEAT and was sure it was the way for me, moving forward, to combat adaptive thermogenesis. Reading this only strengthened my position.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    inflammation causes a LOT of water retention. I have RA and if I have inflammation I tend to swell a lot which is mainly water weight. I know its not real weight gain as my clothes dont fit much different and it does go down usually the next day. sometimes it takes a few days.I eat a lot of carbs too. when I did lower carb I didnt seem to see any difference in inflammation.

    I have PsA and I'm flaring today. The scale was up, and sure enough, I had to buckle my Fitbit on a different hole. Everything is puffy.

    I eat all the carbs, they have nothing to do with inflammation for me whatsoever.

    I was low carbing when I first had my disease, but wasn't aware that's what I was dealing with and didn't know as much about it as I do now. I also still had a menstrual cycle, and I'd venture to say that probably gave me more issues with inflammation that I noticed than anything else back then.

    All I noticed from my PsA back then was pain.

    Now that I'm in menopause, any bit of water bloat is unusual, so it stands out.
  • CharlieBeansmomTracey
    CharlieBeansmomTracey Posts: 7,682 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    inflammation causes a LOT of water retention. I have RA and if I have inflammation I tend to swell a lot which is mainly water weight. I know its not real weight gain as my clothes dont fit much different and it does go down usually the next day. sometimes it takes a few days.I eat a lot of carbs too. when I did lower carb I didnt seem to see any difference in inflammation.

    I have PsA and I'm flaring today. The scale was up, and sure enough, I had to buckle my Fitbit on a different hole. Everything is puffy.

    I eat all the carbs, they have nothing to do with inflammation for me whatsoever.

    I was low carbing when I first had my disease, but wasn't aware that's what I was dealing with and didn't know as much about it as I do now. I also still had a menstrual cycle, and I'd venture to say that probably gave me more issues with inflammation that I noticed than anything else back then.

    All I noticed from my PsA back then was pain.

    Now that I'm in menopause, any bit of water bloat is unusual, so it stands out.

    thats what Im saying that eating high carb v low carb for me didnt seem to make any difference in inflammation or swelling. my legs have been swelling in the evening,I know some of it is due to my RA but they are back down to normal and its not severe,and I drink lots of water too.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    inflammation causes a LOT of water retention. I have RA and if I have inflammation I tend to swell a lot which is mainly water weight. I know its not real weight gain as my clothes dont fit much different and it does go down usually the next day. sometimes it takes a few days.I eat a lot of carbs too. when I did lower carb I didnt seem to see any difference in inflammation.

    I have PsA and I'm flaring today. The scale was up, and sure enough, I had to buckle my Fitbit on a different hole. Everything is puffy.

    I eat all the carbs, they have nothing to do with inflammation for me whatsoever.

    I was low carbing when I first had my disease, but wasn't aware that's what I was dealing with and didn't know as much about it as I do now. I also still had a menstrual cycle, and I'd venture to say that probably gave me more issues with inflammation that I noticed than anything else back then.

    All I noticed from my PsA back then was pain.

    Now that I'm in menopause, any bit of water bloat is unusual, so it stands out.

    thats what Im saying that eating high carb v low carb for me didnt seem to make any difference in inflammation or swelling. my legs have been swelling in the evening,I know some of it is due to my RA but they are back down to normal and its not severe,and I drink lots of water too.

    Yeah, I was agreeing with you and then sort of took off on a ramble. I kind of didn't get the tone right. I'm rather brain foggy today too! Sorry about that.
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    I'm not sure I read this because it was way back, but the initial CO increase may have to do with the starvation response, as a ketogenic diet mimics starvation. That initial CO increase is a possible evolutionary adaptation to push starving humans to look for food.
  • CharlieBeansmomTracey
    CharlieBeansmomTracey Posts: 7,682 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »
    inflammation causes a LOT of water retention. I have RA and if I have inflammation I tend to swell a lot which is mainly water weight. I know its not real weight gain as my clothes dont fit much different and it does go down usually the next day. sometimes it takes a few days.I eat a lot of carbs too. when I did lower carb I didnt seem to see any difference in inflammation.

    I have PsA and I'm flaring today. The scale was up, and sure enough, I had to buckle my Fitbit on a different hole. Everything is puffy.

    I eat all the carbs, they have nothing to do with inflammation for me whatsoever.

    I was low carbing when I first had my disease, but wasn't aware that's what I was dealing with and didn't know as much about it as I do now. I also still had a menstrual cycle, and I'd venture to say that probably gave me more issues with inflammation that I noticed than anything else back then.

    All I noticed from my PsA back then was pain.

    Now that I'm in menopause, any bit of water bloat is unusual, so it stands out.

    thats what Im saying that eating high carb v low carb for me didnt seem to make any difference in inflammation or swelling. my legs have been swelling in the evening,I know some of it is due to my RA but they are back down to normal and its not severe,and I drink lots of water too.

    Yeah, I was agreeing with you and then sort of took off on a ramble. I kind of didn't get the tone right. I'm rather brain foggy today too! Sorry about that.

    lol its ok. I get like that too dont feel bad
  • kokonani
    kokonani Posts: 507 Member
    I say no. Tried it, would never go back. I enjoy carbs way too much. Eating keto means your meals will be much smaller (due to the high calories in the amount of fat you consume). It always left me feeling hungry and never satiated from eating fat. I feel fuller on higher carbs.
  • KetoPhillip
    KetoPhillip Posts: 70 Member
    Yes for me! Ive lost 35lbs so far. :)
  • bweath2
    bweath2 Posts: 147 Member
    edited September 2017
    stevencloser wrote: »
    bweath2 wrote: »
    @psuLemon Agreed. I can be quite nit picky. Outside of very extreme dietary conditions (starvation, very low protein, etc.) BMR will stay pretty consistant based on LBM. And as far as that study goes, I don't know anyone who is trying to lose weigt and consumes 25% of their calories from HFCS, so it's irrelevant.
    @stevencloser Yes, outside of extreme conditions your body will not eat muscle. However I have watched people go on very low protein diets(because it was promoted as healthy) ans lose the majority of their muscle).
    The effect of diet on CO and fat loss I was refering to is mainly due to how different macro ratios can affect the energy level that you feel. 2000 cals of high carb makes me feel like watching Netflix. 2000 cals on keto makes me feel like cage fighting, and makes me fidgetty.
    @lemurcat12 I appreciate such a thorough response. Totally agree. For most dieters it's better to simplify. The tricks tend not to work. Even if the cinnamon, cayenne pepper, and green tea do increase metabolism, it will be a slight change and you will probably subconsciously eat a little more to compensate. Very well put about CICO. Different diets can make the CI easier to adhere to for each individual. And different diets will increase or decrease the CO for each individual because of how it makes them feel, subconscious movement, etc. And I agree that the study is irrelevant, because no dieter would ever drink that much Coke. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

    The RDA to not become deficient in a normal person is a measly ~50ish grams. 200 calories. 10% of calories for a 2000 a day person. And the way RDA works is that that has a safety buffer so the actual amount you'd need is likely a good bit lower. Even on a low protein diet, which was nowhere ever promoted as healthy on a large scale as far as I've seen, you'd get that much. You'd have to get consistently something like no more than 10-20 grams of protein a day to actually have your muscles waste away like that. That's not a diet, that's stupidity.

    I don't give a whole lot of weight to anything the USDA says, including their RDA. Luise Light, former USDA Director of Nutrition Research writes extensively about why their guidelines should not be trusted.
    I especially diagree with the RDA of protein/day. I don't believe it is nearly enough to meet the body's amino acid needs (at a healthy level) let alone maintain any degree of muscle mass. Haven't read any studies on it, but I have observed the negative effects of low protein in others.
    For one example: A few years ago parents went on some kind of macronutrient diet, with the only meat being a small piece of fish maybe once/week. Lots of rice, legumes and veggies though. My mom lost weight and looked like she did before gaining weight. But I watched my dad's fairly muscular frame waste away and now he looks quite thin...I would almost say frail.
  • Heather4448
    Heather4448 Posts: 908 Member
    No. I love oatmeal. I mean, really... it's so good.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    bweath2 wrote: »
    stevencloser wrote: »
    bweath2 wrote: »
    @psuLemon Agreed. I can be quite nit picky. Outside of very extreme dietary conditions (starvation, very low protein, etc.) BMR will stay pretty consistant based on LBM. And as far as that study goes, I don't know anyone who is trying to lose weigt and consumes 25% of their calories from HFCS, so it's irrelevant.
    @stevencloser Yes, outside of extreme conditions your body will not eat muscle. However I have watched people go on very low protein diets(because it was promoted as healthy) ans lose the majority of their muscle).
    The effect of diet on CO and fat loss I was refering to is mainly due to how different macro ratios can affect the energy level that you feel. 2000 cals of high carb makes me feel like watching Netflix. 2000 cals on keto makes me feel like cage fighting, and makes me fidgetty.
    @lemurcat12 I appreciate such a thorough response. Totally agree. For most dieters it's better to simplify. The tricks tend not to work. Even if the cinnamon, cayenne pepper, and green tea do increase metabolism, it will be a slight change and you will probably subconsciously eat a little more to compensate. Very well put about CICO. Different diets can make the CI easier to adhere to for each individual. And different diets will increase or decrease the CO for each individual because of how it makes them feel, subconscious movement, etc. And I agree that the study is irrelevant, because no dieter would ever drink that much Coke. Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

    The RDA to not become deficient in a normal person is a measly ~50ish grams. 200 calories. 10% of calories for a 2000 a day person. And the way RDA works is that that has a safety buffer so the actual amount you'd need is likely a good bit lower. Even on a low protein diet, which was nowhere ever promoted as healthy on a large scale as far as I've seen, you'd get that much. You'd have to get consistently something like no more than 10-20 grams of protein a day to actually have your muscles waste away like that. That's not a diet, that's stupidity.

    I don't give a whole lot of weight to anything the USDA says, including their RDA. Luise Light, former USDA Director of Nutrition Research writes extensively about why their guidelines should not be trusted.
    I especially diagree with the RDA of protein/day. I don't believe it is nearly enough to meet the body's amino acid needs (at a healthy level) let alone maintain any degree of muscle mass. Haven't read any studies on it, but I have observed the negative effects of low protein in others.
    For one example: A few years ago parents went on some kind of macronutrient diet, with the only meat being a small piece of fish maybe once/week. Lots of rice, legumes and veggies though. My mom lost weight and looked like she did before gaining weight. But I watched my dad's fairly muscular frame waste away and now he looks quite thin...I would almost say frail.

    Interesting! I've never read about Louise Light before.

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