Ketogenic diet
Replies
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janejellyroll wrote: »
To clarify, are you planning to transition to the Mediterranean diet once you have finished weight loss? If so, do you anticipate problems once you begin feeling hungry?
I guess to me personally, the benefit of losing weight the way I plan to maintain is that it allows me to gradually learn what works for me and what doesn't so when I began maintaining all I was changing was my calorie goal.
It feels overwhelming to think about having to "master" a whole new way of eating and figure out satiety, meal timing, foods to prepare when transitioning into maintaining. Of course, that's just my personal impression. That doesn't mean other people couldn't make it work.
That's my goal. I'm hoping that I will slowly add in whole grain, healthy carbs and combined with self-discipline and continued activity levels in the gym (I have a desk job), I'll reach a new, health equilibrium.
I totally get the whole issue around mastering a new way of eating. My wife and I take turns cooking for our family (which includes 3 kids) and that was her concern -- am i going to have to make two meals each day. I have found that a combination of being okay with leftovers that can be prepared in advance, and slight modifications to normal meals (I make a pretty good moussaka with no potatoes and heavy cream/coconut cream instead of flour and milk, and the whole family likes it).
Everyone is different, but for me, I am a results guy so although I was skeptical at first, when I saw how quickly I was shedding weight (1 lb per day at the start) I thought, I can do this.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
To clarify, are you planning to transition to the Mediterranean diet once you have finished weight loss? If so, do you anticipate problems once you begin feeling hungry?
I guess to me personally, the benefit of losing weight the way I plan to maintain is that it allows me to gradually learn what works for me and what doesn't so when I began maintaining all I was changing was my calorie goal.
It feels overwhelming to think about having to "master" a whole new way of eating and figure out satiety, meal timing, foods to prepare when transitioning into maintaining. Of course, that's just my personal impression. That doesn't mean other people couldn't make it work.
That's my goal. I'm hoping that I will slowly add in whole grain, healthy carbs and combined with self-discipline and continued activity levels in the gym (I have a desk job), I'll reach a new, health equilibrium.
I totally get the whole issue around mastering a new way of eating. My wife and I take turns cooking for our family (which includes 3 kids) and that was her concern -- am i going to have to make two meals each day. I have found that a combination of being okay with leftovers that can be prepared in advance, and slight modifications to normal meals (I make a pretty good moussaka with no potatoes and heavy cream/coconut cream instead of flour and milk, and the whole family likes it).
Everyone is different, but for me, I am a results guy so although I was skeptical at first, when I saw how quickly I was shedding weight (1 lb per day at the start) I thought, I can do this.
I think something that arises in these conversations sometimes is we hear someone's plan or method and we think "I could never do that!" but that turns into an assumption that nobody else could do it either. Which isn't true, obviously. People can do all sorts of things that I don't want to do or can't do and sometimes they even really enjoy them!
You plan sounds pretty reasonable when you describe it like you do above. I'm glad you found something that works for you.5 -
I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)
not sure I understand. my portions don't seem any smaller than they would be on a high carb diet.2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)
not sure I understand. my portions don't seem any smaller than they would be on a high carb diet.
That's weird. This was one of the most troubling things for me when I tried keto.0 -
From my perspective, my meals aren't tiny (hello 16oz ribeye) they're just no longer overly large. I don't need to eat constantly anymore. I don't need to plan my meals trying to get the largest volume of food for the least amount of calories.
I don't aim for ketosis but my carbs are low enough that I am in ketosis more often than not. A low carb diet just seems to fix the underlying problems with my appetite.
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Just an example of a typical meal for me, this is what I had for lunch today. It also had water added. Total weight for the meal was nearly 2 pounds. I was lucky to be able to eat even half a pound of food on a ketogenic diet.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)
Yes, I count carb "fractions" in low carb foods.
I'm probably one of the biggest volume eaters ever, but things like bread on a burger do absolutely nothing for satiety. So I lose the calories without losing anything from a satiety perspective. As I've lost weight, my appetite has decreased. Still, if someone would normally get a cheeseburger, fries, and a Coke; and I get 2 cheeseburgers plain without buns and a diet Coke, then who has more calories?!
ETA: I only count 'Net' carbs, though - if it doesn't convert to glucose, I don't count it.2 -
here's 2 different meals from friday. both were huge.
here's a picture of a typical lunch for me
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From what I see, average meal weight is about 350g. That's about half of what I feel satisfied with. No wonder I did so poorly on it, and counting rogue carbs didn't leave much for vegetables, which I eat a lot of. Going from an average of 50 grams of fiber a day to something that was unusually low for me was an extreme change.0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »From what I see, average meal weight is about 350g. That's about half of what I feel satisfied with. No wonder I did so poorly on it, and counting rogue carbs didn't leave much for vegetables, which I eat a lot of. Going from an average of 50 grams of fiber a day to something that was unusually low for me was an extreme change.
interesting. I guess i just never realized it because it's good in volume if not weight. Cucumbers, tomatoes, bell peppers, and spinach are all staples of my diet. They have a lot of volume but not a lot of calories.1 -
I didn't find the portions on keto to be problematic, but I don't think I'm a major volume eater. I also ate a lot of vegetables. I don't think I could manage on one of those "less than 20 g of total carbs" versions of keto where vegetables seem hard to get in in any reasonable amount.
I also found myself really struggling to stay under 50 g total carbs (I was usually around 60 g, with 35 net) even limiting carbs to non starchy vegetables (and avocados), some nuts, and some full fat dairy. If I'd actually reduced veg so as to be under 50 g total, either volume or the variety of my vegetables would have been affected.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »From what I see, average meal weight is about 350g. That's about half of what I feel satisfied with. No wonder I did so poorly on it, and counting rogue carbs didn't leave much for vegetables, which I eat a lot of. Going from an average of 50 grams of fiber a day to something that was unusually low for me was an extreme change.
interesting. I guess i just never realized it because it's good in volume if not weight. Cucumbers, tomatoes, bell peppers, and spinach are all staples of my diet. They have a lot of volume but not a lot of calories.
I guess I can understand when someone goes from not eating many vegetables to eating some it doesn't feel like a big change. All of these vegetables and more are already staples in my diet too (I have eaten 1-4 pounds of tomatoes every single day for the past 30 years, for example).2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I didn't find the portions on keto to be problematic, but I don't think I'm a major volume eater. I also ate a lot of vegetables. I don't think I could manage on one of those "less than 20 g of total carbs" versions of keto where vegetables seem hard to get in in any reasonable amount.
I also found myself really struggling to stay under 50 g total carbs (I was usually around 60 g, with 35 net) even limiting carbs to non starchy vegetables (and avocados), some nuts, and some full fat dairy. If I'd actually reduced veg so as to be under 50 g total, either volume or the variety of my vegetables would have been affected.
This might be it, then. I did that less than 20 grams kind and felt very stressed when I had to limit my vegetables a lot.0 -
I couldn't do less than 20g of carbs in a day, that feels like madness. My goal is 80g per day, and I usually end up around 60g.1
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I couldn't do less than 20g of carbs in a day, that feels like madness. My goal is 80g per day, and I usually end up around 60g.
Yep, that explains a lot. Then scratch everything I asked. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that less than 20 grams is not the only way to do it. This is actually pretty doable if my food preferences were different.3 -
The foundation of my diet is meat and vegetables are for flavor and variety, I can quite easily eat under 20g total carb. I eat more carbs than that on days I eat nuts, fruit and beans but I don't need them.1
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I couldn't do less than 20g of carbs in a day, that feels like madness. My goal is 80g per day, and I usually end up around 60g.
Yep, that explains a lot. Then scratch everything I asked. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that less than 20 grams is not the only way to do it. This is actually pretty doable if my food preferences were different.
20g would be 5% of a 1600 calorie diet. Which I guess is "true" keto.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)
Smaller portions, but I get full faster. My usual breakfast is 3 hard boiled eggs and 6 slices of lean turkey lunchmeat. Not hungry for about 5 hours. I usually stay aroung 20g net carbs/day and around 1800cals/day. However, I do eat more protein than typical keto, which tends to keep me full longer.2 -
@amusedmonkey, I totally get what you are saying about portions being small on keto.
I did a year of a medically therapeutic ketogenic diet where at least 75% of my calories came from fat so 5% (less than 20 grams) were from carbs and only 15-20% of calories were from protein since MTKD dictates combined carbs and protein are 25% or less and at least 75% come from fat (at least with the common, typical protocal I was following).
Portion sizes were extremely small compared to how I ate previously (low carb but non-keto). How could they not be if the vast majority of calories are from fat. So...I'm agreeing with you regarding portion size. 100 calories of vegetables fills a plate much more than 100 calories of butter. Visually, a ketogenic diet is quite disappointing in regards to volume or eating with the eyes first as related to volume. Piddly little portions.
My simple minded perspective is that a ketogenic diet is one that maintains a bodily state of ketosis. While ketosis can be accomplished on higher carbs (and/or protein) for some individuals, it is pretty commonplace for many to say they are "eating keto" when in fact they are not in ketosis. If one is not in ketosis, then it is not a ketogenic diet. I'd say it is a low carb diet.2 -
From what I've read anyone at all active should be in ketosis at less than 50 g net carbs. I run about 30 miles per week, so I think I could get away with more than I was eating, but I did test as in ketosis at the amount I mentioned above. More active or larger people obviously could get away with even more.
That said, I don't think there's a particular benefit to ketosis; I just did it out of curiosity. For me it's beneficial in some ways to eat lower carb (around 100 g), and that I obviously would not call ketosis (although I've not checked).
I think it's a shame that the current trend is eating SO FEW carbs, although it might be helpful for some, as I'd bet lots of people would find it easier and just as helpful to do a diet that allows for more volume (and more vegetables!).1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
I think keto first appeared as a "diet" in the late 1700's. William Banting wrote a Letter on Corpulence which was the first LCHF diet book... First diet book ever I think. Even Fletcherizing came later. The oldest diet plan is not really a fad, IMO.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I couldn't do less than 20g of carbs in a day, that feels like madness. My goal is 80g per day, and I usually end up around 60g.
Yep, that explains a lot. Then scratch everything I asked. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that less than 20 grams is not the only way to do it. This is actually pretty doable if my food preferences were different.
Keto meal volume can be smaller but it depends on your food choices and how low carb you are. As other's said, under 50g is considered keto. Some with metabolic issues or who follow keto for the health benefits may need to go lower to create continuous ketones. Conversely, those who are very active can often go higher if they time carbs around exercise.
My keto plates will probably be smaller than most because I am carnivorous much of the time. Meat and eggs take up less space than a salad. It took a little getting used to, and the use of a scale, but using a smaller plate seems normal now. Plus the health benefits I get make up for the reduced volume... I'm usually pretty full when I'm done since I don't use a full stomach as my hunger/fullness cues.
Sort of like snacking on mixed nuts vs popcorn. You eat fewer nuts, and that usually works out for the best. A soup bowl of nuts is big meal and filling. A giant bowl of popcorn that takes up 20X the space and it may or may not be more satiating for people. For me it would be no.
@jdlobb 's plate looks pretty typical for ketogenic diets. Perhaps a few less peppers for those who are below 20g of carbs per day.3 -
There's a lot of synonyms for fad that do fit the current popularity of Keto (and some of its proponents) very well:
Craze, vogue, trend, fashion, mode, enthusiasm, passion, infatuation, love, obsession, mania, rage, compulsion, fixation, fetish, weakness, fancy, taste, novelty, whim, fascination, preoccupation.
So maybe not a fad diet but there is certainly a fad for the diet at the moment.5 -
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!
I'm keto and I do this too. When I make a taco salad I use an entire head of romaine lettuce, which is usually over 600g, but only 8 net carbs. I minimize the tomatoes, but with avocado, sour cream/salsa dressing and half a pound of lean ground beef, I end up with a 2 lb salad with about 15 net carbs.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!
I'm keto and I do this too. When I make a taco salad I use an entire head of romaine lettuce, which is usually over 600g, but only 8 net carbs. I minimize the tomatoes, but with avocado, sour cream/salsa dressing and half a pound of lean ground beef, I end up with a 2 lb salad with about 15 net carbs.
Vegetable love is for everyone!
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