Ketogenic diet
Replies
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mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
not full Keto, but isn't crossfit pretty big on Paleo? Which is also an ultra low-carb diet?1 -
mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
not full Keto, but isn't crossfit pretty big on Paleo? Which is also an ultra low-carb diet?
Paleo is "low-ish" carb.
Honestly, paleo can't seem to make up it's mind...8 -
mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
not full Keto, but isn't crossfit pretty big on Paleo? Which is also an ultra low-carb diet?
Paleo is "low-ish" carb.
Honestly, paleo can't seem to make up it's mind...
yeah, it's basically "we want to be low carb.....but sweet potatoes exist, so we have a problem"7 -
mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.5 -
mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
not full Keto, but isn't crossfit pretty big on Paleo? Which is also an ultra low-carb diet?
Paleo need not be low carb.
I used to do crossfit and the "box" (yeah, I know) was big on challenges where you gave up grains and sugar and so on, but would also have nutrition talks that would go on about eating enough carbs (and especially sweet potatoes, which they were really into).
It's also well known by CFers IMO that the ones who actually compete at the highest levels in the various CF competitions don't eat paleo.
Before paleo CF was apparently all about Zone.1 -
mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
not full Keto, but isn't crossfit pretty big on Paleo? Which is also an ultra low-carb diet?
Paleo is "low-ish" carb.
Honestly, paleo can't seem to make up it's mind...
yeah, it's basically "we want to be low carb.....but sweet potatoes exist, so we have a problem"
Hahahaha... yeah something like that. So they change the name to "Primal" and all is good...6 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.8 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.9 -
Keto's definitely not for me. I wouldn't be able to give up oatmeal. Also, copious amounts of fats has never effected my digestion in a good way.
I also find it super annoying to be told I shouldn't eat carbs...1 -
Keto's definitely not for me. I wouldn't be able to give up oatmeal. Also, copious amounts of fats has never effected my digestion in a good way.
I also find it super annoying to be told I shouldn't eat carbs...
I think the only time one should be told this is if they are trying to lower carbs. If you want to eat low carb,or should be eating low carb (for medical reasons), then you should not eat (many) carbs. If you want higher carb, you should eat higher carb.1 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.
You could also rephrase the bolded statement to read:
People that do endurance activities become more fat adapted than those that don't do endurance activities. Fat adaptation isn't a yes/no thing - it's a sliding scale and it's not just your diet that influences it.10 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.
You could also rephrase the bolded statement to read:
People that do endurance activities become more fat adapted than those that don't do endurance activities. Fat adaptation isn't a yes/no thing - it's a sliding scale and it's not just your diet that influences it.
True. It is not just diet that influences how efficiently one burns fat. Endurance sports will take you to a higher level than an inactive person. The endurance athlete who is also fat adapted will generally be the most efficient at using fat for fuel, and inactive people with a higher carb diet (possibly those who eat frequently) will be the least efficient.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.
You could also rephrase the bolded statement to read:
People that do endurance activities become more fat adapted than those that don't do endurance activities. Fat adaptation isn't a yes/no thing - it's a sliding scale and it's not just your diet that influences it.
Sure, and the endurance athlete who eats SAD is going to still be unable to exceed 1g/min. while the endurance athlete who is fat adapted will be beyond that. I suppose that would be a similar variance between non-athletes who are sitting around all day either eating SAD or eating a keto diet... but it would be less valuable to those sedentary examples who are not concerned about where their fuel is going to come from if they ran out of food awhile ago and still have a lot of miles to go before reaching the next place to fuel up... at an aid station or finish line during a race, or when they reach such a place when hiking/trail running/biking/etc. long distances.8 -
Why is the comparison SAD or keto? How many serious athletes, amateur or professional, are sitting around eating chips and other low nutrient foods? And why is it somehow superior to be fat adapted and an endurance athlete? There aren't many athletes competing at a high level who are keto and there's a reason for that.
Have at it but let's not pretend there's something magical about keto and endurance sports.13 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Why is the comparison SAD or keto? How many serious athletes, amateur or professional, are sitting around eating chips and other low nutrient foods?
When talking about SAD, I wasn't implying chips are the only carb-heavy foods consumed. I'm not sure why that would be assumed.VintageFeline wrote: »And why is it somehow superior to be fat adapted and an endurance athlete?
See above for an explanation. Fat adapted athletes don't need to rely on carrying a bunch of Gu's, Honey Stingers, or similar high carb fuel to prevent bonking.VintageFeline wrote: »There aren't many athletes competing at a high level who are keto and there's a reason for that.
When I say "athlete," I'm not just talking about professional athletes. I would include recreational athletes such as myself. While I can't name a professional athlete who is fat adapted, you can throw any professional athlete's name you want at me and I wouldn't be able to describe the details behind any one of their diets. The same goes for any recreational athlete or any other person except me.
What I can say is that old habits tend to die hard and new scientific research within established subjects tends to be very slow at getting put into practice. My observation is that it often takes many years - often a decade or more for research to become commonly understood and used by industry professionals.
A personal example is the term "double diabetes" (used to describe a patient with both type 1 and type 2 diabetes). I was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 1995 and type 2 in 1998, making me a "double diabetic" at that time. The term was first used to describe such increasing occurrences in scientific literature in 1991, though the first time I met an endocrinologist who had ever heard of it was in 2004. Even the endocrinologist who diagnosed type 2 in 1998 did not use that term and simply use "and also type 2." She said I was the 3rd she had ever seen in her career. By the late 2000's, it was a well known term among endocrinologists and it was no longer considered to be so rare when patients had both of these diseases; though many GP's don't understand it even today. It took from 1991 to the late 2000's for a something non-controversial to become understood by professionals in that field. That seems to be fairly common in other cases, in my experience and observations in many cases ranging across many fields of study.
Previous studies commenced testing immediately after switching athletes to a low carb diet rather than providing time for study participants to become fat adapted. This practice resulted in the [incorrect] understanding that athletes who eat low carb still max out at the same rate of fat oxidation and that diet makes no difference on the rate of fat oxidation. This also led to the common belief that quick carbs for energy provided an advantage in all cases, even for endurance. More recent research published within the past 8 years disputes that commonly held understanding, but it won't become known and understood by most professionals within the field for probably another decade (more or less). For now, the old research indicating fat oxidation rate is unaffected by diet is still what most professionals within the industry know and understand.5 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.
You could also rephrase the bolded statement to read:
People that do endurance activities become more fat adapted than those that don't do endurance activities. Fat adaptation isn't a yes/no thing - it's a sliding scale and it's not just your diet that influences it.
Sure, and the endurance athlete who eats SAD is going to still be unable to exceed 1g/min. while the endurance athlete who is fat adapted will be beyond that.
I don't think we know that. Trying to be more "fat-adapted" is really trendy in a lot of endurance training right now. I was following a plan where you did a number of runs, including long runs, fasted in the morning, and then alternated with practicing fueling. Supposedly it can make a difference, don't know how or how well they tested it, of course.
The bigger question is probably why or whether it matters if your only goal is going as fast as possible and you don't have a problem fueling on the run for, say, a marathon or longer. And at a certain point you are going to need to refuel no matter how fat adapted you are, and more if you want to push the speed more. (I often do long runs or bike for more time than many recommend without refueling (including during a rather hilly series of rides in Hawaii), but I don't kid myself that it's about anything more in that case than me not pushing the intensity.)0 -
Also, I'll point out that there is some research to show that ketones help reduce the effects of methylglyoxal, which is believed to cause some aging related diseases. This is a benefit for sedentary individuals as well as athletes, so there is some benefit for sedentary individuals who eat a ketogenic diet. It just isn't as much benefit as a significantly diminished risk of 'bonking' is for endurance athletes.8
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midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »mineirinhonj wrote: »Wouldn't work for me. I crossfit and in order for you to perform well you need carbs, energy! Never heard of anyone who crossfit and doesn't eat carbs.
I do not crossfit, but I do run and lift weights and eat very low carb. It takes time to become fat adapted (efficient at oxidizing fat to the level where skeletal muscles are primarily using fat for energy), but those who are normally have a lot of energy available to access... they are carrying it around right on their body.
Utilizing fat stores on the body for energy is universal amongst humans - it's not something solely restricted to Keto Magic.
Yes, but those of us who are "fat adapted" become efficient at using fat during endurance activities. We can use fat at a higher rate than someone who eats SAD.
For many years, it was believed that the most elite athletes were never able to oxidize more than 1g/min. of fat for energy... and most athletes are closer to the 0.4g-0.6g range. More recent science has studied fat adapted athletes and found rates as high as 1.8g/min.; though many fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at rates around 1.2g/min. - 1.5 g/min. 1.8g/min. is the high end of what I've seen from study results thus far and I'm acknowledging it is an elite example. Nonetheless, even non-elite fat adapted athletes are oxidizing fat at higher levels than the level previously believed to be the max possible rate.
You could also rephrase the bolded statement to read:
People that do endurance activities become more fat adapted than those that don't do endurance activities. Fat adaptation isn't a yes/no thing - it's a sliding scale and it's not just your diet that influences it.
Sure, and the endurance athlete who eats SAD is going to still be unable to exceed 1g/min. while the endurance athlete who is fat adapted will be beyond that. I suppose that would be a similar variance between non-athletes who are sitting around all day either eating SAD or eating a keto diet... but it would be less valuable to those sedentary examples who are not concerned about where their fuel is going to come from if they ran out of food awhile ago and still have a lot of miles to go before reaching the next place to fuel up... at an aid station or finish line during a race, or when they reach such a place when hiking/trail running/biking/etc. long distances.
It's a pretty silly dichotomy between Keto and SAD - most endurance athletes eat well to fuel their sport whatever their macro preferences. (I'm not American by the way, like the majority of people on this planet!)
The the options aren't either keto or carb gels. The majority of my carbs come from food when I'm doing long distance events. I'm a cyclist not a runner so carrying supplies is easy - my limit is the amount of fluid I can carry rather than the amount of energy I can carry.
In summary it boils down to if you become better fat adapted by your training and/or your diet you gain the ability to go further but only if you keep your speed moderate which may be somewhat handy in ultra endurance events where you have access to water but not food and aren't interested in setting a fast pace.
So somewhat interesting from a physiological perspective and with almost no practical advantage beyond a tiny niche of people.8 -
crisscott11 wrote: »Yes? No? Why?
@crisscott11 if you are still interested I found in my case that carb addiction (controlling cravings for them) can be the road block to living in a state of nutritional ketosis.
While having lived in a state on nutritional ketosis for three years I now do not see it as diet plan but in my case it is my way to recover health losses from eating high carb for the past 50 years. Yes I have lost weight but it had nothing to do with counting calories. After a few hellish weeks my carb cravings started crashing and have yet to return after I left eating added sugars and all forms of all grains Oct 2014.
If one can go 30 days without eating carbs without any strong cravings for them then I say they may not have a carb addiction so to speak. People that can not may have one in most cases perhaps.
Trying to diet to loss weight I found over my lifetime to be a suckers game. When I cut out trying to loss weight and only focused on gaining health it was my turn around point and the end of yo-yoing weight for the past 3 years.
Do not focus on what works for others but try to find what works for you. You are the only one that counts in the end. There are many success ways one can eat I expect. Leaving off carbs for the most part was the answer in my case but others do just fine eating another way.
Best of success.15
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