Ketogenic diet
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
It is down to CICO, but there might be some mitigating factors due to being female and your hormones (can you tell that I was listening to Lyle McDonald this morning) that make your response to keto faster. At least at the outset.
Over time, every controlled study has shown that weight loss on keto diets and other methodologies is the same.
It does come down to calories.
Indeed, and I'll add, it's not that CICO is not linear, it's that WEIGHT LOSS is not linear...6 -
brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
I lose faster when very low carb too. About 50% faster than expected, or 2-3 lbs per week instead of 1-1.5 lbs. My guess is it is because of IR and swinging BG. Maybe I move more when keto, maybe my higher insulin levels make fat storage too easy compared to others, maybe it is reduced inflammation, maybe I eat more thermogenic protein... I don't know.
I do know that this is not true for everyone who does ketosis, just like I know that a diet based on moderation is not sustainable for everyone. It's good there are dietary options out there for people to try that may make losing weight easier for them.
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brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
Welcome @brandiecolquitt to MFP forums.
The key to success is finding what works for each of one then systematically doing it until it becomes clear our system needs to be modified again.
CICO can not really be debated in a medical sense because no one posting here has the means to even know their own CICO values. While we can not know our own CICO without an expensive lab does make it mythical in a sense yet the best guess still can be helpful.
Personally I only compute my NET CICO by weighing my body each morning as I first step out of bed.
You are medically correct about our own metabolic response and that not everyone's is the same.
Three years ago at the age of 63 I realized my Way Of Eating, moving and thinking were rushing me to a very premature death and that the doctors wanted me to start on a dangerous in my view med for arthritis pain management. Our 16 year old kids were watching me quickly decline wondering if they were watching their future life. I had to do something to give them hope for their own future.
After 40 years of ever increasing yo-yoing weight I knew I had to stop using weight loss methods on the market today in the form of books, etc. I promised myself to use no method that I could not be doing 40 years later.
On a hunch I left all sweeteners including sugar and all forms of all grains cold turkey Oct 2014 hoping for pain management. It was a hellish first two weeks but the carb cravings then started to fade very fast. 30 days later my my pain levels had dropped from 7-8 (where it had been for many years) to 2-3 and I told the doctors I would pass on starting the Enbrel injections. Three years later my subjective pain level normally is <1 on a 1-10 scale.
Reading heavy use of coconut oil helped some people I had added it at the same time I went cold turkey off sugar and grain. I had not heard of the Low Carb High Fat WOE but was doing it by accident. Needlessly to say 3 years later I am still doing a LCHF WOE. While this may not work for others I know it works for this old man because my health and health markers are better than decades ago.
I eat and stay stuffed all of the time but have maintained a 50 pound weight loss for over two years but started losing about one pound a month again several months. For the past three years I have done all of my "counting and measuring" with the bathroom scales.
While I am opposed to putting people on guilt trips by saying weight loss is just CICO I expect that is not going to change.
In my case I have learned when sticking with my current LCHF macro I can eat until I am stuffed because unlike with high carb WOE's I do get full now and do not want another bite.
Oh I forgot to mention six months into nutritional ketosis my 30+ years of IBS left and still is gone.
Best of continued success.
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Yes. I adopted that way of eating, not to lose weight but to try & bring my blood sugar numbers under control. Have type2 diabetes. That has worked for me. Blood sugars now in normal range & lost weight was a nice bonus.3
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Keto is not a diet, it is a healthy way of eating and if done right it is very sustainable. I know people who have been on Keto for years and their health has improved dramatically. What is not to like? Eat real food, meat, fish, cheese butter, eggs, loads of veg, berries, avocado, omega 3's..Steak and eggs, bacon and eggs, meat with lots of good vegetables, soups, stews etc. There is no end of food out there for keto..We cut all the processed foods and carbs which are high in sugar. Carbs convert into sugar even the whole wheat. Pre-diabetics and people with diabetes have done so well on this change ways of eating. Many have reversed their diabetes and lose weight, with BP, Cholesterol and Blood Glucose levels going down. We have been told to buy diet foods, which contain loads of sugar and people are just getting more obese. When you buy diet foods such as yogurts, check the sugar content, then check the sugar content of full-fat cream. The only yogurt I will eat now is plain Greek yogurt full fat as the diet yogurts are full of sugar. I won't buy anything diet. The food industry has been conning us into thinking that the diet products are good for us, but instead, people are gaining more weight because of hidden sugars. It is the same with me. My BG levels have gone down, Cholesterol, BP also. I always used to eat low-fat and diet food, even in the right portions. I could never lose weight. I loved couscous, potatoes, brown bread, brown pasta all the so-called healthy carbs. What happened my sugars went up. I could not understand why as I was doing exactly what my doctor told me to do. Carbs, even healthy ones convert into sugar, no wonder I was not losing weight or my BG levels were going down. My arthritis has also got easier. I cannot champion Keto enough to be honest.20
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Meant to say "Cut out all processed foods and carbs which are high in sugar3
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Except on sub 50 grams of carbs you can't really have "loads of veg".
And sugar doesn't make you gain weight.11 -
Keto is not a diet, it is a healthy way of eating and if done right it is very sustainable. I know people who have been on Keto for years and their health has improved dramatically. What is not to like? Eat real food, meat, fish, cheese butter, eggs, loads of veg, berries, avocado, omega 3's..Steak and eggs, bacon and eggs, meat with lots of good vegetables, soups, stews etc. There is no end of food out there for keto..We cut all the processed foods and carbs which are high in sugar. Carbs convert into sugar even the whole wheat. Pre-diabetics and people with diabetes have done so well on this change ways of eating. Many have reversed their diabetes and lose weight, with BP, Cholesterol and Blood Glucose levels going down. We have been told to buy diet foods, which contain loads of sugar and people are just getting more obese. When you buy diet foods such as yogurts, check the sugar content, then check the sugar content of full-fat cream. The only yogurt I will eat now is plain Greek yogurt full fat as the diet yogurts are full of sugar. I won't buy anything diet. The food industry has been conning us into thinking that the diet products are good for us, but instead, people are gaining more weight because of hidden sugars. It is the same with me. My BG levels have gone down, Cholesterol, BP also. I always used to eat low-fat and diet food, even in the right portions. I could never lose weight. I loved couscous, potatoes, brown bread, brown pasta all the so-called healthy carbs. What happened my sugars went up. I could not understand why as I was doing exactly what my doctor told me to do. Carbs, even healthy ones convert into sugar, no wonder I was not losing weight or my BG levels were going down. My arthritis has also got easier. I cannot champion Keto enough to be honest.
Hate to break it to you but even without sugar your body converts nutrients to sugar. Its called glucenogenisis. You body lives and runs on sugar.
Calories are the issue, not protein fats, carbs or any other specific nutrients. You can lose weight and get fit on any diet. In fact, the healthiest people in the world eat primarily carbs.
But its nice you found something you do well with.8 -
stevencloser wrote: »Except on sub 50 grams of carbs you can't really have "loads of veg".
And sugar doesn't make you gain weight.
Sure glad you now now support a calorie is not a calorie is why sugar does not make you gain weight.15 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Except on sub 50 grams of carbs you can't really have "loads of veg".
And sugar doesn't make you gain weight.
Sure glad you now now support a calorie is not a calorie is why sugar does not make you gain weight.
I dont think you understand what he wrote.9 -
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
I have eaten about a pound of black grapes this morning that showed up over night but they are not processed food.17 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
I have eaten about a pound of black grapes this morning that showed up over night but they are not processed food.
You can have both and still be healthy. Its easier to control calories when you don't eat a lot of ultra processed foods.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
I have eaten about a pound of black grapes this morning that showed up over night but they are not processed food.
Your body doesn't give a damn if it's processed. You took in 300 calories of grapes that contained 70 grams of sugar.9 -
Keto is not a diet, it is a healthy way of eating and if done right it is very sustainable.
It's a way of eating that is often done as a diet.
Like most ways of eating, it can be done in a healthful and non healthful manner.
I personally think the most healthful way of eating involves a lot of vegetables which is not possible on 20 g of carbs or less. It can be on 50 g of carbs (although I found even that quite challenging) IF one pretty much only uses vegetables to satisfy the carb goal, and still you will have to limit many foods that can be healthful like fruit, legumes, maybe nuts, whole grains, tubers.
I think it could still have benefits that make that worthwhile, but suggesting that it's inherently healthier than non keto is absurd.What is not to like?
You get a lot of calories from fat that has some benefits but generally is not high in micronutrients.
Many who do keto, due to personal preferences or the need to keep fat high (in their view) end up with probably much more sat fat than in a good idea, getting lots of fat from foods that don't offer a lot of micros (again), and eating a lot of animal products (especially foods like cheese and meat) that can be good in moderation but probably are not the wisest things to eat huge amounts of. Things like "fat bombs" also don't offer much over other forms of "junk food."
That said, one can do keto very healthfully too.
Many who do keto seem NOT to eat loads of veg, and one really can't eat loads of veg (again) at 20 g carbs and it's challenging even at 50 g carbs.
Ideally one would also focus on eating lots of fish, some organ meats, so on.
It's no easier to eat a nutrient-dense diet on keto than non keto, obviously.
And many processed foods aren't high carb, so eating keto has nothing to do with processed or not.
The idea that high carb foods (whatever "diet foods" are supposed to be) must contain lots of added sugar or that low fat means high added sugar shows that you have a very narrow idea about what foods exist and nutrition in general, IMO. I don't recommend low fat, but if I were thinking about a low fat diet (which also can easily held with all sorts of health issues, including T2D, in part -- like keto -- simply because of weight loss, and in part from having a more healthful diet with more fiber and more protein), I'd think of lean proteins (low fat cuts of meat, most seafood, legumes), lots and lots of vegetables, some fruit, some tubers and whole grains. Low fat dairy (which does not have added sugar any more than full fat -- it's there if you seek out the flavored stuff). I would avoid junk food because it has lots of fat too (and because presumably in this scenario I care about eating nutrient dense foods).
If one has to keto to avoid added sugar, one knows nothing about food or nutrition or cooking, IMO.6 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
I have eaten about a pound of black grapes this morning that showed up over night but they are not processed food.
But according to your own comments you also eat lots of processed foods.
You just choose processed foods with fat and not carbs.4 -
Tried it for 3 months. Possibly the worst 3 months of my life. Social life is ruined and everyday I wanted it to end this nightmare.3
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Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...10
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I'm doing my first experiment with keto (also intermittent fasting and/or OMAD), I'm at day 81, and I've lost about 40 lbs. I've never had much of a problem with sweets except for soda pop, so keto isn't too far away from my normal diet in the first place. I can't argue with the results, and any sweet that I crave can be satisfied with a diet soda or some diabetic candy. If you've got a sweet tooth, I think keto would be much harder to follow.3
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Going to need some proof for this load of BS.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
Cutting sugar and grains doesn't magically make someone lose weight, you cut calories also, whether you tried to out not.When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
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Going to need some proof for this load of BS.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
Cutting sugar and grains doesn't magically make someone lose weight, you cut calories also, whether you tried to out not.When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
Correct. @GaleHawkins may not have tried to cut calories, but in the end, he did.
As far as processed foods being the major cause of premature death wold wide I would say nay, being overweight, sedentary and combined with a slew of other not so great habits (smoking and drinking to name a couple) are probably closer to the major causes...5 -
I'm doing my first experiment with keto (also intermittent fasting and/or OMAD), I'm at day 81, and I've lost about 40 lbs. I've never had much of a problem with sweets except for soda pop, so keto isn't too far away from my normal diet in the first place. I can't argue with the results, and any sweet that I crave can be satisfied with a diet soda or some diabetic candy. If you've got a sweet tooth, I think keto would be much harder to follow.
How many calories and grams of protein are you eating because unless you are morbidly obese, that is super aggressive.1 -
Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.8 -
I'm doing my first experiment with keto (also intermittent fasting and/or OMAD), I'm at day 81, and I've lost about 40 lbs. I've never had much of a problem with sweets except for soda pop, so keto isn't too far away from my normal diet in the first place. I can't argue with the results, and any sweet that I crave can be satisfied with a diet soda or some diabetic candy. If you've got a sweet tooth, I think keto would be much harder to follow.
Some with a sweet tooth find keto makes life easier. No sweets often means no cravings so you finally have control over the amount you eat - even though it means almost no sweets.
Congrats on your success so far.
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Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.
I don't disagree with you. I guess my overall point is there are so many ways to eat and be healthy. If keto does not sound like something you could do don't sweat it. Choose something that you can do.6 -
Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.
some peoples cholesterol will change. for those like me the numbers raise.5 -
Going to need some proof for this load of BS.GaleHawkins wrote: »
Agreed. It is the combo of high sugar (carbs) and high fat in processed food that can make processed food a major cause of premature death world wide.
Cutting sugar and grains doesn't magically make someone lose weight, you cut calories also, whether you tried to out not.When I cut out added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014 at the age of 63 that my weight without trying to cut calories dropped and maintained over the past three years.
I never cut out added sugars and all forms of all grains to lose weight. In fact after 40 years of dieting to lose weight I had deciding dieting to loose weight is a suckers game so I just found a macro that would let me stay stuffed and weight be managed automatically by the body.
I got suckered into the myth that it was all about CICO for 40 years before I learned it was all about finding the right macro that takes away all of my cravings. It has been working out just fine for the past 36 months for me.
Finding the macro that fixed my eating disorder (uncontrollable carb cravings) is reversing my failing health due to eating the wrong macro for 40 years.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.
some peoples cholesterol will change. for those like me the numbers raise.
True. But you are one of the unfortunate few with an unsual health issue (familial hypercholesterolemia, correct?) that are affected by keo negatively - not one of the many who benefit. It would be the equivalent of me pointing out how gluten is bad because I'm a celiac. For most, it is fine. When it comes to cholesterol, your situation is uncommon.5 -
Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.
I don't disagree with you. I guess my overall point is there are so many ways to eat and be healthy. If keto does not sound like something you could do don't sweat it. Choose something that you can do.
Agreed. Keto is not the end all be all diet for everyone.... just for some of us. Up to around half would probably do very well on it for their health's sake. For long term keto'ers it is mostly about health. There are a few who stick with it because they don't love carbs, but most stick with it because they feel so much better.2 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Keto works for those it works for, nothing more nothing less. It's not magic, just one of the many many ways to eat. Find what works for you and go with it. Health benefits come from the weight loss, not the method you chose to get there...
The bolded can be incorrect. Often when people switch to a keto or LCHF diet, the health benefots come before weight loss. Those with IR will often see better BG numbers before there is any real fat loss. Cholesterol numbers will change if you add more fat, often for the better. Inflammation will go down if you avoid foods that cause it - often sugars.
Weight loss can improve some things but so can a healthy diet, which for many people may mean keto.
some peoples cholesterol will change. for those like me the numbers raise.
@CharlieBeansmomTracey you bring up a valid concern. Once I told the results of the test below my doctor showed no concern about my 300+ cholesterol number. I ordered it online so I paid for it but I wanted to know if the base cholesterol numbers had any real health value info and they did not in my case.
lifeextension.com/Vitamins-Supplements/itemLC123810/NMR-LipoProfile-Blood-Test
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