Ketogenic diet
Replies
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I would explode if I tried to eat 600g of lettuce.4
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Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
I think keto first appeared as a "diet" in the late 1700's. William Banting wrote a Letter on Corpulence which was the first LCHF diet book... First diet book ever I think. Even Fletcherizing came later. The oldest diet plan is not really a fad, IMO.
Ha yes, after I wrote that I thought it didn't read exactly how I intended. I simply meant "fad" as in popular, but I agree, it isn't going anyware. Perhaps I should have said, even though it is extremely popular right now (especially in the Silicon Valley, 'biohacking' scene) it isn't based on 'junk science' like many 'fad diets', has been around for ages and will be here for ages to come.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.1 -
see, starches and grains leave me hungrier than when i started. Even though I'm at about 80g of carbs per day now, almost all of that comes from vegetables, fruit, and some added sugar, as well as the occasional sweet potato. I'm almost completely grain free, and I've never felt less hungry. I sometimes struggle to get to my goal calories. But as soon as I mix in the carbs, or have a carb-heavy meal, even if it's under my required calories, everything goes to crap.3
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see, starches and grains leave me hungrier than when i started. Even though I'm at about 80g of carbs per day now, almost all of that comes from vegetables, fruit, and some added sugar, as well as the occasional sweet potato. I'm almost completely grain free, and I've never felt less hungry. I sometimes struggle to get to my goal calories. But as soon as I mix in the carbs, or have a carb-heavy meal, even if it's under my required calories, everything goes to crap.
This is me as well. When I stay with the green veggies and protein with some fat, I am good. Get me started on rice or potatoes (or even bread) and I will eat what ever is available (and be looking for more food in the next couple of hours). I can, on the other hand, eat a spoonful of coconut oil or a pat of butter (on their own with nothing else) and be good for a much longer time.2 -
I had two homemade "McMuffins" for brunch today. It was just two back bacon medallions (so little fat) and an egg in each English muffin. Had them around brunch/1pm (so hadn't had breakfast yet). Didn't get hungry till 6.30pm-ish. If that had just been the bacon and eggs, even if it was another egg and two medallions, I'd never have made it that long.
I can get a large breakfast pastry, have it with coffee and be full for hours too.
It is interesting how it is so extreme for some people.
I will say this about moving from one method to lose to another to maintain and the cutting of nearly whole food groups. There is a risk that you won't know what a reasonable portion of those things your reintroduce looks like (general you) and I think that would worry me personally. Like oh crap how much bread can I have with this soup?! Maintaining is hard enough and not having a proper exit plan makes it even harder. Changing your way of eating AND not fully thinking through your exit plan I think is setting yourself up for failure (again general you).2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.
If I'm not mistaken, there is some preliminary research indicating that it is indeed genetic.
Which would, once again, make the whole idea of debating it really, really silly.
I have to add a caveat here. I don't know that just potatoes or rice alone would satisfy me. I seem to need a certain mix of all the macros in my meals to be satiated. I just know that I need starch for meals to have staying power.4 -
I've got a looooong way to go before I'm even thinking about switching to maintenance calories.1
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janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Well, personally speaking, the ketogenic diet has removed my hunger cues (caused by overproduction of insulin) and has given me motivation to continue, which some will refer to pejoratively as "the diet honeymoon" but lets remember, we have actual honeymoons for a reason -- to get marriage off on a strong foot, emotionally and physically connected, so that the couple can face the real world with its problems and challenges. Unexpected benefits have been greater focus and mental acuity (due to Acetyl CoA increases in the brain). I started the diet in July, thinking I was just going to eat cheese and meat and loose weight. I lost 25 lbs in 1.5 months (225-200), which made me start thinking, "I feel like I can start doing exercise again," whereas before, it felt like too much exertion and was frustrating.
Since then I've been doing strength training and a bit of cardio 6x a week, added intermittent fasting twice weekly (24 hrs each), now I'm swapping body fat for muscle, and slowly reducing overall weight. I don't think all of those positive changes would have happened with the Mediterranean diet alone (not a knock, it isn't designed for that, and the original NEJM paper shows no significant weight differences between it and the control group). So I credit the motivation, lack of hunger (which solved overeating for me), mental focus and confidence to begin an exercise program, all from the Keto Diet.
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
It's great you found a diet that works for you, but the bold is very doubtful, especially on keto, and even less likely with aggressive weight loss. More likely, you are gaining strength and seeing fat loss which makes your muscles look bigger. But keto is not seen or has not been shown as beneficial for muscle growth. It's why there are so many variants to mitigate that (CKD/TKD), especially once you get past noob gains (which is a few lbs).
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I have an unrelated question to those who enjoy keto: how do you cope with tiny portion sizes? Or are people who do well on keto not volume eaters in general? And sorry for the the slight derailment in advance.
ETA and related: do people also count carb fractions in generally low carb foods here and there (for example eggs and coffee)
Smaller portions, but I get full faster. My usual breakfast is 3 hard boiled eggs and 6 slices of lean turkey lunchmeat. Not hungry for about 5 hours. I usually stay aroung 20g net carbs/day and around 1800cals/day. However, I do eat more protein than typical keto, which tends to keep me full longer.
That would be small for me. I am a huge volume eater. For example, a normal breakfast for me would be 2 eggs + 5 egg whites, 50g onion, 50 to 100g of peppers, 4 tbsp salsa, 100 - 125g of guacamole, and cheese (optional but when I do it's 28g). My backup breakfast is 8 oz of greek yogurt, 50g of berries and 30g of granola (usually pumpkin and flaxseed).
And when I eat that, I also eat a quest protein bar and a 200 to 250g apple (jazz, pink lady or macoun).
I eat at 7am and then again at 11am.3 -
I'm in the middle on starches -- they don't make me feel hungry, at all, and can be extremely satiating. But I can generally replace starches with an equal volume of vegetables or some additional fat or some fruit (the fruit wouldn't be when LCHFing) and feel every bit as satisfied.0
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On the other hand, I DO need some kind of vegetable -- eating just bacon and eggs, no veg, leaves me as likely to be hungry before lunch as eating just a muffin. Hardboiled eggs and lunchmeat would not only not fit my taste preferences (a vegetable omelet with some smoked salmon, on the other hand, perfect!), but would leave me unsatisfied and likely to be hungry sooner.0
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amusedmonkey wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.
Responding exceedingly well to a low carb diet isn't genetic for me. I had a normal appetite for most of my life and never had to pay attention to macros, food quality, volume or anything of the sort. Any food, in any combination (even junk food) used to be filling and satiate my appetite just fine. Abusing food to the point of obesity seems to have caused my issues and losing weight didn't resolve them.
All I know is that I'm so, so grateful to have found a way of eating that works and even more thankful that all of these years later it still works. I hope anyone who's struggling is able to hang in there until they find that same relief - whatever that looks like for them.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.
If I'm not mistaken, there is some preliminary research indicating that it is indeed genetic.
Which would, once again, make the whole idea of debating it really, really silly.
I have to add a caveat here. I don't know that just potatoes or rice alone would satisfy me. I seem to need a certain mix of all the macros in my meals to be satiated. I just know that I need starch for meals to have staying power.
Yes, I talk about this a lot in the General questions, that I need all three macros with a starchy carb part of the carb macro in order for it to work. It's part of the reason that I only eat porridge for breakfast on workout days because it's great fuel but I need the extra calories for extra food to not be left hungry by that meal later in the day.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »On the other hand, I DO need some kind of vegetable -- eating just bacon and eggs, no veg, leaves me as likely to be hungry before lunch as eating just a muffin. Hardboiled eggs and lunchmeat would not only not fit my taste preferences (a vegetable omelet with some smoked salmon, on the other hand, perfect!), but would leave me unsatisfied and likely to be hungry sooner.
I can do meals without a starch, but they don't leave me full as long as meals with a starch do. But YES, they have to have either veggies or fruit in them. Something like cottage cheese and veggies with the veggies tossed with olive oil, or yogurt with berries or pumpkin and flax meal.
I'll eat meals like this on days where I have migraines or on rest days and my appetite is lower.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Well, personally speaking, the ketogenic diet has removed my hunger cues (caused by overproduction of insulin) and has given me motivation to continue, which some will refer to pejoratively as "the diet honeymoon" but lets remember, we have actual honeymoons for a reason -- to get marriage off on a strong foot, emotionally and physically connected, so that the couple can face the real world with its problems and challenges. Unexpected benefits have been greater focus and mental acuity (due to Acetyl CoA increases in the brain). I started the diet in July, thinking I was just going to eat cheese and meat and loose weight. I lost 25 lbs in 1.5 months (225-200), which made me start thinking, "I feel like I can start doing exercise again," whereas before, it felt like too much exertion and was frustrating.
Since then I've been doing strength training and a bit of cardio 6x a week, added intermittent fasting twice weekly (24 hrs each), now I'm swapping body fat for muscle, and slowly reducing overall weight. I don't think all of those positive changes would have happened with the Mediterranean diet alone (not a knock, it isn't designed for that, and the original NEJM paper shows no significant weight differences between it and the control group). So I credit the motivation, lack of hunger (which solved overeating for me), mental focus and confidence to begin an exercise program, all from the Keto Diet.
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
It's great you found a diet that works for you, but the bold is very doubtful, especially on keto, and even less likely with aggressive weight loss. More likely, you are gaining strength and seeing fat loss which makes your muscles look bigger. But keto is not seen or has not been shown as beneficial for muscle growth. It's why there are so many variants to mitigate that (CKD/TKD), especially once you get past noob gains (which is a few lbs).
I can't say this is my area of expertise, and I believe it is currently a controversial subject, but the Keto diet is not as antithetical as popular belief would suggest with respect to muscle maintenance and growth. You will see an initial reduction in muscle mass from the loss of glycogen and accompanying water. However, assuming adequate protein consumption and circulating essential amino acids (I also supplement BCAAs, hydroxymethylbutyrate (HMB), and creatine, just to be safe), the Ketogenic breakdown of fatty acids produces BOHB which actually shifts the body AWAY from protein oxidation, because BOHB can produce essential amino acids like leucine instead (so the body doesn't have any reason to breakdown muscle). In fact, the primary driver of muscle protein is in fact BCAAs, especially leucine, not insulin and likely the benefit to having carbs post-workout to stimulate insulin production is a trivial benefit (see Staples AW et al., 2011; Koopman R, et al., 2005).
N.B. My rationale for suppliments: studies have shown that in untrained individuals (that's me), there is an additive but not synergistic benefit to taking both creatine and HMB in terms of building muscle mass and strength. They have also shown that BCAAs are not of any benefit, except if fasting (which I do, for 24 hrs twice weekly). Ketogenesis likely produces BCAAs in adequate amount, but on fasting days, I like to know that my body wont resort to breaking down any muscle to get these. (By the way, there is a large amount of data showing that fasting is also not antithetical to building muscle, but that is another story for another day
In short, since building muscle and strength is a secondary goal for me, with my primary goal being weight loss and reduction in chronic insulin overproduction (inflammatory and cancer causing, as well as athlerosclerotic inducing), I admit that keto is not "playing the percentages" in terms of the most straight forward, time proven diet for building muscle. At some point, I might switch to a more traditional carb loading, protein and carb shake, etc. diet if I find I am not building the mass I would like. However, there is a preponderance of evidence that suggests ketogenesis and muscle growth can occur simultaneously, perhaps not at the physiological limit of muscle hypertrophy, but growth none the less. Like I said, it is a controversial subject and I don't know enough to balance these findings against many textbooks that say carbohydrates are essential to muscle growth, but it is 'food for though'.
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There's a lot of synonyms for fad that do fit the current popularity of Keto (and some of its proponents) very well:
Craze, vogue, trend, fashion, mode, enthusiasm, passion, infatuation, love, obsession, mania, rage, compulsion, fixation, fetish, weakness, fancy, taste, novelty, whim, fascination, preoccupation.
So maybe not a fad diet but there is certainly a fad for the diet at the moment.
I just like to call it popular.
I'm all for my diets becoming an "it" thing. It makes life simpler and easier for me. I was diagnosed as a celiac some years back and the GF popularity has made finding convenience foods easier. Same with finding low carb products now. Coconut oil and coconut flour are easy to find compared to a few years ago.janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
I think keto first appeared as a "diet" in the late 1700's. William Banting wrote a Letter on Corpulence which was the first LCHF diet book... First diet book ever I think. Even Fletcherizing came later. The oldest diet plan is not really a fad, IMO.
Ha yes, after I wrote that I thought it didn't read exactly how I intended. I simply meant "fad" as in popular, but I agree, it isn't going anyware. Perhaps I should have said, even though it is extremely popular right now (especially in the Silicon Valley, 'biohacking' scene) it isn't based on 'junk science' like many 'fad diets', has been around for ages and will be here for ages to come.
I guess we're just really "with it' now.
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janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Well, personally speaking, the ketogenic diet has removed my hunger cues (caused by overproduction of insulin) and has given me motivation to continue, which some will refer to pejoratively as "the diet honeymoon" but lets remember, we have actual honeymoons for a reason -- to get marriage off on a strong foot, emotionally and physically connected, so that the couple can face the real world with its problems and challenges. Unexpected benefits have been greater focus and mental acuity (due to Acetyl CoA increases in the brain). I started the diet in July, thinking I was just going to eat cheese and meat and loose weight. I lost 25 lbs in 1.5 months (225-200), which made me start thinking, "I feel like I can start doing exercise again," whereas before, it felt like too much exertion and was frustrating.
Since then I've been doing strength training and a bit of cardio 6x a week, added intermittent fasting twice weekly (24 hrs each), now I'm swapping body fat for muscle, and slowly reducing overall weight. I don't think all of those positive changes would have happened with the Mediterranean diet alone (not a knock, it isn't designed for that, and the original NEJM paper shows no significant weight differences between it and the control group). So I credit the motivation, lack of hunger (which solved overeating for me), mental focus and confidence to begin an exercise program, all from the Keto Diet.
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
It's great you found a diet that works for you, but the bold is very doubtful, especially on keto, and even less likely with aggressive weight loss. More likely, you are gaining strength and seeing fat loss which makes your muscles look bigger. But keto is not seen or has not been shown as beneficial for muscle growth. It's why there are so many variants to mitigate that (CKD/TKD), especially once you get past noob gains (which is a few lbs).
I can't say this is my area of expertise, and I believe it is currently a controversial subject, but the Keto diet is not as antithetical as popular belief would suggest with respect to muscle maintenance and growth. You will see an initial reduction in muscle mass from the loss of glycogen and accompanying water. However, assuming adequate protein consumption and circulating essential amino acids (I also supplement BCAAs, hydroxymethylbutyrate (HMB), and creatine, just to be safe), the Ketogenic breakdown of fatty acids produces BOHB which actually shifts the body AWAY from protein oxidation, because BOHB can produce essential amino acids like leucine instead (so the body doesn't have any reason to breakdown muscle). In fact, the primary driver of muscle protein is in fact BCAAs, especially leucine, not insulin and likely the benefit to having carbs post-workout to stimulate insulin production is a trivial benefit (see Staples AW et al., 2011; Koopman R, et al., 2005).
N.B. My rationale for suppliments: studies have shown that in untrained individuals (that's me), there is an additive but not synergistic benefit to taking both creatine and HMB in terms of building muscle mass and strength. They have also shown that BCAAs are not of any benefit, except if fasting (which I do, for 24 hrs twice weekly). Ketogenesis likely produces BCAAs in adequate amount, but on fasting days, I like to know that my body wont resort to breaking down any muscle to get these. (By the way, there is a large amount of data showing that fasting is also not antithetical to building muscle, but that is another story for another day
In short, since building muscle and strength is a secondary goal for me, with my primary goal being weight loss and reduction in chronic insulin overproduction (inflammatory and cancer causing, as well as athlerosclerotic inducing), I admit that keto is not "playing the percentages" in terms of the most straight forward, time proven diet for building muscle. At some point, I might switch to a more traditional carb loading, protein and carb shake, etc. diet if I find I am not building the mass I would like. However, there is a preponderance of evidence that suggests ketogenesis and muscle growth can occur simultaneously, perhaps not at the physiological limit of muscle hypertrophy, but growth none the less. Like I said, it is a controversial subject and I don't know enough to balance these findings against many textbooks that say carbohydrates are essential to muscle growth, but it is 'food for though'.
Share what you find, especially in the Low Carber Daily MFP group. They are usually up for a good geeking out over the evolving science of LCHF diets.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group2 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I had two homemade "McMuffins" for brunch today. It was just two back bacon medallions (so little fat) and an egg in each English muffin. Had them around brunch/1pm (so hadn't had breakfast yet). Didn't get hungry till 6.30pm-ish. If that had just been the bacon and eggs, even if it was another egg and two medallions, I'd never have made it that long.
I can get a large breakfast pastry, have it with coffee and be full for hours too.
It is interesting how it is so extreme for some people.
I will say this about moving from one method to lose to another to maintain and the cutting of nearly whole food groups. There is a risk that you won't know what a reasonable portion of those things your reintroduce looks like (general you) and I think that would worry me personally. Like oh crap how much bread can I have with this soup?! Maintaining is hard enough and not having a proper exit plan makes it even harder. Changing your way of eating AND not fully thinking through your exit plan I think is setting yourself up for failure (again general you).
I know you are not the first one to mention Exit Plan but why would one find a successful Way Of Eating then exit it?2 -
@GaleHawkinsGaleHawkins wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I had two homemade "McMuffins" for brunch today. It was just two back bacon medallions (so little fat) and an egg in each English muffin. Had them around brunch/1pm (so hadn't had breakfast yet). Didn't get hungry till 6.30pm-ish. If that had just been the bacon and eggs, even if it was another egg and two medallions, I'd never have made it that long.
I can get a large breakfast pastry, have it with coffee and be full for hours too.
It is interesting how it is so extreme for some people.
I will say this about moving from one method to lose to another to maintain and the cutting of nearly whole food groups. There is a risk that you won't know what a reasonable portion of those things your reintroduce looks like (general you) and I think that would worry me personally. Like oh crap how much bread can I have with this soup?! Maintaining is hard enough and not having a proper exit plan makes it even harder. Changing your way of eating AND not fully thinking through your exit plan I think is setting yourself up for failure (again general you).
I know you are not the first one to mention Exit Plan but why would one find a successful Way Of Eating then exit it?
Because for some people a successful WOE for weight loss isn't the same or necessary or desirable for successful weight maintenance.
Maintenance for me is normal and I find it pretty easy - even when I was fat for 20 years I was maintaining, just at the wrong weight.
My weight loss was just an interlude. I did 5:2 to lose weight and simply stopped fasting twice a week when I got to goal. No "lifestyle change" required for me - just going on a calorie restricted diet for a while.
Obviously for some people a "lifestyle change" or overhaul of their diet is required, but that's not universal.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Well, personally speaking, the ketogenic diet has removed my hunger cues (caused by overproduction of insulin) and has given me motivation to continue, which some will refer to pejoratively as "the diet honeymoon" but lets remember, we have actual honeymoons for a reason -- to get marriage off on a strong foot, emotionally and physically connected, so that the couple can face the real world with its problems and challenges. Unexpected benefits have been greater focus and mental acuity (due to Acetyl CoA increases in the brain). I started the diet in July, thinking I was just going to eat cheese and meat and loose weight. I lost 25 lbs in 1.5 months (225-200), which made me start thinking, "I feel like I can start doing exercise again," whereas before, it felt like too much exertion and was frustrating.
Since then I've been doing strength training and a bit of cardio 6x a week, added intermittent fasting twice weekly (24 hrs each), now I'm swapping body fat for muscle, and slowly reducing overall weight. I don't think all of those positive changes would have happened with the Mediterranean diet alone (not a knock, it isn't designed for that, and the original NEJM paper shows no significant weight differences between it and the control group). So I credit the motivation, lack of hunger (which solved overeating for me), mental focus and confidence to begin an exercise program, all from the Keto Diet.
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
It's great you found a diet that works for you, but the bold is very doubtful, especially on keto, and even less likely with aggressive weight loss. More likely, you are gaining strength and seeing fat loss which makes your muscles look bigger. But keto is not seen or has not been shown as beneficial for muscle growth. It's why there are so many variants to mitigate that (CKD/TKD), especially once you get past noob gains (which is a few lbs).
I can't say this is my area of expertise, and I believe it is currently a controversial subject, but the Keto diet is not as antithetical as popular belief would suggest with respect to muscle maintenance and growth. You will see an initial reduction in muscle mass from the loss of glycogen and accompanying water. However, assuming adequate protein consumption and circulating essential amino acids (I also supplement BCAAs, hydroxymethylbutyrate (HMB), and creatine, just to be safe), the Ketogenic breakdown of fatty acids produces BOHB which actually shifts the body AWAY from protein oxidation, because BOHB can produce essential amino acids like leucine instead (so the body doesn't have any reason to breakdown muscle). In fact, the primary driver of muscle protein is in fact BCAAs, especially leucine, not insulin and likely the benefit to having carbs post-workout to stimulate insulin production is a trivial benefit (see Staples AW et al., 2011; Koopman R, et al., 2005).
N.B. My rationale for suppliments: studies have shown that in untrained individuals (that's me), there is an additive but not synergistic benefit to taking both creatine and HMB in terms of building muscle mass and strength. They have also shown that BCAAs are not of any benefit, except if fasting (which I do, for 24 hrs twice weekly). Ketogenesis likely produces BCAAs in adequate amount, but on fasting days, I like to know that my body wont resort to breaking down any muscle to get these. (By the way, there is a large amount of data showing that fasting is also not antithetical to building muscle, but that is another story for another day
In short, since building muscle and strength is a secondary goal for me, with my primary goal being weight loss and reduction in chronic insulin overproduction (inflammatory and cancer causing, as well as athlerosclerotic inducing), I admit that keto is not "playing the percentages" in terms of the most straight forward, time proven diet for building muscle. At some point, I might switch to a more traditional carb loading, protein and carb shake, etc. diet if I find I am not building the mass I would like. However, there is a preponderance of evidence that suggests ketogenesis and muscle growth can occur simultaneously, perhaps not at the physiological limit of muscle hypertrophy, but growth none the less. Like I said, it is a controversial subject and I don't know enough to balance these findings against many textbooks that say carbohydrates are essential to muscle growth, but it is 'food for though'.
You can only gain muscle if you have greater periods of MPS vs protein breakdown (total protein turnover). Taking into consideration that you lost over 2lbs per week (even if we take 10 lbs from glycogen/water reduction), how likely is it that you think you sustain muscle, let alone gained it? What protein and lifting program do yo follow?
BCAAs have been proven to be way overhyped and more recent meta analyses/studies suggest that they don't support protein turnover ( 1, 2). HMB has very limited research and it looks very similar to BCAA's. I suspect, it will follow that path once science catches up. Heck, the only supplement which you "may" be benefiting from is Creatine (if you are consuming monohydrate). But being a noob lifter, it would be extremely hard to tell if you are seeing greater volume increase due to creatine or CNS adaptations that quickly occur in noob lifters; I highly suspect it's the latter. If you have concerns regarding recovery, I'd consider Beta Alanine since you do kettle bell exercises. It's been shown to improve recovery times during exercise that are highly rep (15+) and have shorter rest periods .
Back to protein, for someone how is losing over 2 lbs per week, I'd highly doubt you would be consuming adequate protein. Even the studies that Phinney/Vokey conduct have protein levels at .8-1.2/lb of lbm. And the leaner a person gets and the less glycogen stored, the higher that can become. And taking into consideration, that I rarely see someone in nutritional Ketosis at more than 20% protein (which percentages are a terrible way to evaluate needs, /rant), I would find it highly unlikely that you are consuming adequate levels of protein.
But if you are concerns are weight loss over muscle retention, than it's fine. But if your goal is fat loss over weight loss, than you may want to tweak your plan. But it's hard to evaluate without knowing all the details of your diet, so at best, I have limited data and can't make a fully informed decision.
ETA - Small correction, but going keto doesn't cause decreased to muscle mass (tissue), it reduces LBM.
6 -
Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
14 -
brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
CICO is an end all.. tracking and dietary preference comes down to accuracy, how it affect your energetically and compliance. Keto will allow you to lose more in the beginning due to glycogen depletion and water losses. But fat loss isn't increased.6 -
There are many articles that mention the " Magic 100" grams of carbs per day. For most people I guess, it's considered to be a good compromise. That's pretty much what I'm doing- and sticking to complex carbs with lots of fiber1
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brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
Yes, I found the same to be true after years of tracking basic calorie deficits with higher carbs and years of tracking on low carb. At the same deficit, low carb provided significantly greater weight loss. Others may not have had the same experience, and that's fine... I'm just happy I finally found something that worked better than the frustratingly slow losses (compared to what I should have been losing based on deficit calories).7 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
Yes, I found the same to be true after years of tracking basic calorie deficits with higher carbs and years of tracking on low carb. At the same deficit, low carb provided significantly greater weight loss. Others may not have had the same experience, and that's fine... I'm just happy I finally found something that worked better than the frustratingly slow losses (compared to what I should have been losing based on deficit calories).
Curious to know what you consider "slow losses"0 -
Jancandoit7 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
Yes, I found the same to be true after years of tracking basic calorie deficits with higher carbs and years of tracking on low carb. At the same deficit, low carb provided significantly greater weight loss. Others may not have had the same experience, and that's fine... I'm just happy I finally found something that worked better than the frustratingly slow losses (compared to what I should have been losing based on deficit calories).
Curious to know what you consider "slow losses"
I was losing an average of about 0.2 lbs/week.
ETA: This is when I should have been losing 1 lb./week on average; and that is when I first started and had not yet discovered the benefits of low carb. I started at about 50-60 lbs. overweight, so losing at that rate while also feeling soooo hangry all the time is just terribly unbearable.5 -
brandiecolquitt wrote: »Ahh the great CiCo debate--
Let me share my experience. I've been tracking for a good long while now. I've tracked on low fat high carb diets, I've tracked on middle of the road diets, I've tracked on Keto.
I lose weight faster when I'm on a ketogenic diet. Even when consuming the same number of calories per day. It really is super dependent on metabolic response and not everyone is the same. CiCo is a thing.. but it isn't as linear as some would like to make it out to be.
It is down to CICO, but there might be some mitigating factors due to being female and your hormones (can you tell that I was listening to Lyle McDonald this morning) that make your response to keto faster. At least at the outset.
Over time, every controlled study has shown that weight loss on keto diets and other methodologies is the same.
It does come down to calories.5
This discussion has been closed.
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