Ketogenic diet
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From what I've read anyone at all active should be in ketosis at less than 50 g net carbs. I run about 30 miles per week, so I think I could get away with more than I was eating, but I did test as in ketosis at the amount I mentioned above. More active or larger people obviously could get away with even more.
That said, I don't think there's a particular benefit to ketosis; I just did it out of curiosity. For me it's beneficial in some ways to eat lower carb (around 100 g), and that I obviously would not call ketosis (although I've not checked).
I think it's a shame that the current trend is eating SO FEW carbs, although it might be helpful for some, as I'd bet lots of people would find it easier and just as helpful to do a diet that allows for more volume (and more vegetables!).1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
I think keto first appeared as a "diet" in the late 1700's. William Banting wrote a Letter on Corpulence which was the first LCHF diet book... First diet book ever I think. Even Fletcherizing came later. The oldest diet plan is not really a fad, IMO.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I couldn't do less than 20g of carbs in a day, that feels like madness. My goal is 80g per day, and I usually end up around 60g.
Yep, that explains a lot. Then scratch everything I asked. I don't know why it didn't occur to me that less than 20 grams is not the only way to do it. This is actually pretty doable if my food preferences were different.
Keto meal volume can be smaller but it depends on your food choices and how low carb you are. As other's said, under 50g is considered keto. Some with metabolic issues or who follow keto for the health benefits may need to go lower to create continuous ketones. Conversely, those who are very active can often go higher if they time carbs around exercise.
My keto plates will probably be smaller than most because I am carnivorous much of the time. Meat and eggs take up less space than a salad. It took a little getting used to, and the use of a scale, but using a smaller plate seems normal now. Plus the health benefits I get make up for the reduced volume... I'm usually pretty full when I'm done since I don't use a full stomach as my hunger/fullness cues.
Sort of like snacking on mixed nuts vs popcorn. You eat fewer nuts, and that usually works out for the best. A soup bowl of nuts is big meal and filling. A giant bowl of popcorn that takes up 20X the space and it may or may not be more satiating for people. For me it would be no.
@jdlobb 's plate looks pretty typical for ketogenic diets. Perhaps a few less peppers for those who are below 20g of carbs per day.3 -
There's a lot of synonyms for fad that do fit the current popularity of Keto (and some of its proponents) very well:
Craze, vogue, trend, fashion, mode, enthusiasm, passion, infatuation, love, obsession, mania, rage, compulsion, fixation, fetish, weakness, fancy, taste, novelty, whim, fascination, preoccupation.
So maybe not a fad diet but there is certainly a fad for the diet at the moment.5 -
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!
I'm keto and I do this too. When I make a taco salad I use an entire head of romaine lettuce, which is usually over 600g, but only 8 net carbs. I minimize the tomatoes, but with avocado, sour cream/salsa dressing and half a pound of lean ground beef, I end up with a 2 lb salad with about 15 net carbs.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Yeah, when I have greens of any kind I'm usually having about 150-200 grams.
Yup, and that's just the greens. Then you start adding in the other veggies and that ish gets real.
Yep, I often eat mine out of a mixing bowl too. Regular dishes just aren't enough!
I'm keto and I do this too. When I make a taco salad I use an entire head of romaine lettuce, which is usually over 600g, but only 8 net carbs. I minimize the tomatoes, but with avocado, sour cream/salsa dressing and half a pound of lean ground beef, I end up with a 2 lb salad with about 15 net carbs.
Vegetable love is for everyone!
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I would explode if I tried to eat 600g of lettuce.4
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Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »VeronicaA76 wrote: »No. Unless a "diet" is something that you can do for the rest of your life, when you stop: fat generally comes right back on. That's pretty much how and why most "diets" fail, most are generally unsustainable for the long term. Now if you have an underlying medical condition where a specific diet is better for you low carb/keto, gluten-free, etc, then that's fine as it's a long term healthy solution.
I'd argue that you probably just need a good "exit strategy", like transitioning to a Mediterranean diet. Water weight will return, because initial weight loss from keto is due to compartment shifts in water from the hypertonic effect of sugar, but there is no reason why body fat weight gain should occur if you properly transition to a whole grain, lower carb diet, while maintaining appropriate fitness.
This is true, but if the Mediterranean diet is how someone wants to eat for the rest of their life, why not just lose weight eating that way?
Plus as a medical scientist, I appreciate that it is a physiologically sound concept which leverages actual evolutionary responses to hunger, lack of available sugar, etc. Even though it is a fad, it's not a "fad diet" in the sense of being based on someone's hunch.
I think keto first appeared as a "diet" in the late 1700's. William Banting wrote a Letter on Corpulence which was the first LCHF diet book... First diet book ever I think. Even Fletcherizing came later. The oldest diet plan is not really a fad, IMO.
Ha yes, after I wrote that I thought it didn't read exactly how I intended. I simply meant "fad" as in popular, but I agree, it isn't going anyware. Perhaps I should have said, even though it is extremely popular right now (especially in the Silicon Valley, 'biohacking' scene) it isn't based on 'junk science' like many 'fad diets', has been around for ages and will be here for ages to come.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.1 -
see, starches and grains leave me hungrier than when i started. Even though I'm at about 80g of carbs per day now, almost all of that comes from vegetables, fruit, and some added sugar, as well as the occasional sweet potato. I'm almost completely grain free, and I've never felt less hungry. I sometimes struggle to get to my goal calories. But as soon as I mix in the carbs, or have a carb-heavy meal, even if it's under my required calories, everything goes to crap.3
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see, starches and grains leave me hungrier than when i started. Even though I'm at about 80g of carbs per day now, almost all of that comes from vegetables, fruit, and some added sugar, as well as the occasional sweet potato. I'm almost completely grain free, and I've never felt less hungry. I sometimes struggle to get to my goal calories. But as soon as I mix in the carbs, or have a carb-heavy meal, even if it's under my required calories, everything goes to crap.
This is me as well. When I stay with the green veggies and protein with some fat, I am good. Get me started on rice or potatoes (or even bread) and I will eat what ever is available (and be looking for more food in the next couple of hours). I can, on the other hand, eat a spoonful of coconut oil or a pat of butter (on their own with nothing else) and be good for a much longer time.2 -
I had two homemade "McMuffins" for brunch today. It was just two back bacon medallions (so little fat) and an egg in each English muffin. Had them around brunch/1pm (so hadn't had breakfast yet). Didn't get hungry till 6.30pm-ish. If that had just been the bacon and eggs, even if it was another egg and two medallions, I'd never have made it that long.
I can get a large breakfast pastry, have it with coffee and be full for hours too.
It is interesting how it is so extreme for some people.
I will say this about moving from one method to lose to another to maintain and the cutting of nearly whole food groups. There is a risk that you won't know what a reasonable portion of those things your reintroduce looks like (general you) and I think that would worry me personally. Like oh crap how much bread can I have with this soup?! Maintaining is hard enough and not having a proper exit plan makes it even harder. Changing your way of eating AND not fully thinking through your exit plan I think is setting yourself up for failure (again general you).2 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »Giant bowls of salad here too when I eat them. But the main protein in that lunch shared is chicken at 140g. I had 120g of chicken and that was a small piece of chicken really (probably half the size of a lot of the chicken breasts I've seen in US supermarkets, ours are generally smaller here in the UK though mine was especially small today).
I had mine with a huge serving of mash. If it had just been the salad, which I do also do, more often in what we laughingly call summer, I'm hungry about an hour later so I either have some new potatoes or bread or something too. I need the starch. The human body is a curious thing.
Same here. I usually mix some rice or other grain into the salad. I need starch with pretty much every meal to feel satiated.
Yep, that was one of the reasons I was starving on keto. Wonder if it's genetic.
If I'm not mistaken, there is some preliminary research indicating that it is indeed genetic.
Which would, once again, make the whole idea of debating it really, really silly.
I have to add a caveat here. I don't know that just potatoes or rice alone would satisfy me. I seem to need a certain mix of all the macros in my meals to be satiated. I just know that I need starch for meals to have staying power.4 -
I've got a looooong way to go before I'm even thinking about switching to maintenance calories.1
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