Ketogenic diet
Replies
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
While I agree with most of that you've said here, the bolded is questionable. What is your proof source for this besides your own n=1 experience?
And if what you are stating were to be true, wouldn't they experience a higher and not a lower CO?7 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered raised CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
While I agree with most of that you've said here, the bolded is questionable. What is your proof source for this besides your own n=1 experience?
And if what you are stating were to be true, wouldn't they experience a higher and not a lower CO?
Oops. You're right. That was a typo on my part. Thank you.
My bolded is based on n=1, and others' experiences. I have not gone looking for studies on this, and I doubt there are any at this point.
An elevated CO does not seem to happen for everyone who eats keto. In the MFP groups that focus on lowered carbs, unexpected extra weight loss is not universal. I don't think it is even the majority. It's just a small bonus that some of us experienced - small being the key word. It is not a large extra loss; maybe only a couple of pounds a month.
It seems most common in those with insulin resistance or other health issues that low carb helps. Those who are healthier seem not to see this effect as often - just my observation.5 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered raised CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
While I agree with most of that you've said here, the bolded is questionable. What is your proof source for this besides your own n=1 experience?
And if what you are stating were to be true, wouldn't they experience a higher and not a lower CO?
Oops. You're right. That was a typo on my part. Thank you.
My bolded is based on n=1, and others' experiences. I have not gone looking for studies on this, and I doubt there are any at this point.
An elevated CO does not seem to happen for everyone who eats keto. In the MFP groups that focus on lowered carbs, unexpected extra weight loss is not universal. I don't think it is even the majority. It's just a small bonus that some of us experienced - small being the key word. It is not a large extra loss; maybe only a couple of pounds a month.
It seems most common in those with insulin resistance or other health issues that low carb helps. Those who are healthier seem not to see this effect as often - just my observation.
So, just an anecdotal observation with nothing objective to back it up. Got it.
Keto has been pretty extensively studied. I think if there were such a phenomena, it would have presented by now.10 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered raised CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
While I agree with most of that you've said here, the bolded is questionable. What is your proof source for this besides your own n=1 experience?
And if what you are stating were to be true, wouldn't they experience a higher and not a lower CO?
Oops. You're right. That was a typo on my part. Thank you.
My bolded is based on n=1, and others' experiences. I have not gone looking for studies on this, and I doubt there are any at this point.
An elevated CO does not seem to happen for everyone who eats keto. In the MFP groups that focus on lowered carbs, unexpected extra weight loss is not universal. I don't think it is even the majority. It's just a small bonus that some of us experienced - small being the key word. It is not a large extra loss; maybe only a couple of pounds a month.
It seems most common in those with insulin resistance or other health issues that low carb helps. Those who are healthier seem not to see this effect as often - just my observation.
So, just an anecdotal observation with nothing objective to back it up. Got it.
Keto has been pretty extensively studied. I think if there were such a phenomena, it would have presented by now.
LOL You gotta be kidding.
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CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »I love carbs, and I love to bake (with flour and sugar lol), so at first glance keto is a no for me. BUT I'm trying it out at the moment for the mental clarity and focus that a lot of people rave about in ketosis (I'm studying web development and it's a very intense course). I do find my energy levels are more even, and I don't get hungry very often - when I do, I can see it coming from far enough away that it's not likely to reach scary levels of HANGER. I have been pretty interested to see that compared with just reducing calories and regular exercise with no regard for macros, weight is practically melting off me whereas with the former approach it was a HARD STRUGGLE to get those numbers to move. I get heaps of fibre, still having bowel movements pretty much every day. I may move to a cyclical keto approach in the future.
if you are losing more weight now compared to before its probably because you have a bigger deficit this time around.and if you have no regard for macros how do you know how much fat you are getting and is it enough to be in ketosis? fat,carbs and protein are all macros
Fat isn't what determines ketosis, lack of carbs determines ketosis.
Not exactly, protein can't be high either. If I am not mistaken, protein makes up less than 20% of your calories. The advantage of keto is that it makes you feel full which is good for the undisciplined who will binge whenever they eat. On the downside, keto doesn't help a person understand anything about macros, they figure they just have to restrict one macro and that's it, everything is solved. In reality, nothing is solved...sure there's a good chance they lose weight, but at what cost. Many ketoers (not all of course) simply restrict the carbs just for the sake of losing weight, but sometimes the deficit is so big that without knowing, it's eating away their muscles. I see it a lot on this website people claiming that "that keto" directly made them lose weight. I cringe when someone says that because it only shows me that they have no clue how CICO works and they reject that theory....it reminds me of people who still think the world is flat because that's how "they see it" regardless of all the scientific evidence.
With that said, someone who does keto, who enjoys a keto diet and understand + accepts the basics of CICO....those people I have no issues with because they simply use keto diet as a tool to lose weight and that's ok.....but someone who does keto out pure ignorance and then spreads bs information about keto, that is just wrong, it gives bad information to people who do not know any better.
No, that is correct. You will be in ketosis on a very low carb diet even if protein is moderate or high. Protein might make ketone levels a bit lower but it does not generally stop ketosis altogether.
I think some keto'ers may reject CICO because of a misunderstanding. CI<CO is needed for weight loss. That is entirely true. What some keto'ers experience is a lowered raised CO so they lose more weight at the same CI when ketogenic. Elevated CO could be caused by hormones, improved metabolism (treated insulin resistance or increased protein and fat = thermogenic effect), or more movement due to increased energy. Not every keto'er experiences this but some do.
Plus there is the fact that many keto'ers will naturally eat, and want to eat, fewer calories. They aren't hungry anymore so they think they must be eating the same amount as before or more. Satiation can be an exciting new experience. This is probably a common perception for those who don't weigh their food.
While I agree with most of that you've said here, the bolded is questionable. What is your proof source for this besides your own n=1 experience?
And if what you are stating were to be true, wouldn't they experience a higher and not a lower CO?
Oops. You're right. That was a typo on my part. Thank you.
My bolded is based on n=1, and others' experiences. I have not gone looking for studies on this, and I doubt there are any at this point.
An elevated CO does not seem to happen for everyone who eats keto. In the MFP groups that focus on lowered carbs, unexpected extra weight loss is not universal. I don't think it is even the majority. It's just a small bonus that some of us experienced - small being the key word. It is not a large extra loss; maybe only a couple of pounds a month.
It seems most common in those with insulin resistance or other health issues that low carb helps. Those who are healthier seem not to see this effect as often - just my observation.
So, just an anecdotal observation with nothing objective to back it up. Got it.
Keto has been pretty extensively studied. I think if there were such a phenomena, it would have presented by now.
LOL You gotta be kidding.
Not at all. Sorry that doesn't confirm your bias but there are lots of studies on keto. Alan Aragon's summary alone is a meta-analysis. James Krieger has looked at it and summarized a lot of studies.
Heck, plug it into PubMed and you get 2,220 results! So I'd say you've got to be kidding.
So how about you start dealing in fact instead of your n=1 observations.23 -
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oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL18 -
oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL
That's also known as confirmation bias. Just saying.
No one is knocking the idea that one's personal experience is what works for them. Studies will support either side because science shouldn't be biased. If you find that a ketogenic diet works for you, then keep doing it.
Any other straw man argument that leads to dogmatic and mystical statements denying energy balance or biochemistry tend to get picked up readily and while it's entertaining to see academics argue for their personal ideology, it actually creates a deeper wedge between camps and that spills over into gen pop who follow the same as their favorite speaker, and take it further into cult-like followings.
No diet has an inherent advantage over another when matched for energy and protein, and if anyone has to ask why those two variables are the most important when comparing diet strategies, then I wish them luck. The diet that does work is the one that dieters will adhere to in the long-term.
FYI, the advocates of energy balance are actually quite flexible in their approach and do recognize low carb dieting as a tool for the goal of the individual, while there are a lot of low carb advocates who either deny or fail to acknowledge that all macronutrients (including carbs) play a role in health management.16 -
oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL
Aggressive? Knickers in a knot? This is the debate section. Ad homenim attacks are the refuge of those who are unable to make a fact based argument.
The results of the meta-analysis by Tuzur, Roberts and Leaf, reviewed by Aragon and others.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/41500626#Comment_41500626
Based on it's title, it also addresses some unsubstantiated claims you've made regarding the effectiveness of keto for body fat, muscle mass, strength and endurance. If you are interested in facts, maybe you should take the time to look it over.
In regards to your n=1 experience, it is meaningless to anyone but you. It wasn't done in controlled conditions and it has no real validity. You have posted this kind of thing before and you represent it as fact or at least imply it is. That is a specious argument. And when challenged for proof sources, you get defensive and call names. I prefer to trust facts and proven sources. You are free to believe what you like. But if you post things in a public forum, be prepared to have the facts of the argument challenged.
You Lol'd at the thought that keto was widely studied. 2220 studies on Pubmed says it was. If you want to know the contents and results, go read them. That search was just keto diets. The results could have been larger with a broader search.
I have no intention of watching a youtube video for 26 minutes to see if they prove your point. If you think there are studies there that do, look them up and post them.
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oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL
That's also known as confirmation bias. Just saying.
No one is knocking the idea that one's personal experience is what works for them. Studies will support either side because science shouldn't be biased. If you find that a ketogenic diet works for you, then keep doing it.
Any other straw man argument that leads to dogmatic and mystical statements denying energy balance or biochemistry tend to get picked up readily and while it's entertaining to see academics argue for their personal ideology, it actually creates a deeper wedge between camps and that spills over into gen pop who follow the same as their favorite speaker, and take it further into cult-like followings.
No diet has an inherent advantage over another when matched for energy and protein, and if anyone has to ask why those two variables are the most important when comparing diet strategies, then I wish them luck. The diet that does work is the one that dieters will adhere to in the long-term.
FYI, the advocates of energy balance are actually quite flexible in their approach and do recognize low carb dieting as a tool for the goal of the individual, while there are a lot of low carb advocates who either deny or fail to acknowledge that all macronutrients (including carbs) play a role in health management.
100% agree. Find what works best for you and stick with it.5 -
oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL
Aggressive? Knickers in a knot? This is the debate section. Ad homenim attacks are the refuge of those who are unable to make a fact based argument.
The results of the meta-analysis by Tuzur, Roberts and Leaf, reviewed by Aragon and others.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/41500626#Comment_41500626
Based on it's title, it also addresses some unsubstantiated claims you've made regarding the effectiveness of keto for body fat, muscle mass, strength and endurance. If you are interested in facts, maybe you should take the time to look it over.
In regards to your n=1 experience, it is meaningless to anyone but you. It wasn't done in controlled conditions and it has no real validity. You have posted this kind of thing before and you represent it as fact or at least imply it is. That is a specious argument. And when challenged for proof sources, you get defensive and call names. I prefer to trust facts and proven sources. You are free to believe what you like. But if you post things in a public forum, be prepared to have the facts of the argument challenged.
You Lol'd at the thought that keto was widely studied. 2220 studies on Pubmed says it was. If you want to know the contents and results, go read them. That search was just keto diets. The results could have been larger with a broader search.
I have no intention of watching a youtube video for 26 minutes to see if they prove your point. If you think there are studies there that do, look them up and post them.
I agree with you 100%. It amazes me how much people fall in love with their diet which is only a tool and not a direct cause for weight loss. It reminds me of religious fanatics or political fanatics. You can show them evidence, but they will ignore and pick some random stuff that they saw and claim it to be fact.13 -
It is calories that count the most when it comes to weight loss. But I find that I consume fewer calories, and feel fuller when I'm eating low carb. I still eat carbs sometimes, but I eat them in moderation. I eat bread, but I eat the Aldi sprouted grain bread, because the glycemic index is lower. The slices are smaller, but it's pretty dense and filling. 60 calories per slice. It's awesome.4
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Not that there's anything wrong with sprouted grain bread, but just raising a point - the glycemic index of a particular food is irrelevant unless it's eaten in isolation from any other foods and in a fasted state. In a mixed meal, the macronutrients of the other foods will combine and significantly alter the GI of any one particular food in that meal.It is calories that count the most when it comes to weight loss. But I find that I consume fewer calories, and feel fuller when I'm eating low carb. I still eat carbs sometimes, but I eat them in moderation. I eat bread, but I eat the Aldi sprouted grain bread, because the glycemic index is lower. The slices are smaller, but it's pretty dense and filling. 60 calories per slice. It's awesome.
In other words, if you get up in the morning and eat nothing but two slices of bread, the glycemic index may be significant. If you eat those two slices of bread with a couple eggs and/or some bacon, or put butter on it, or make a sandwich, the GI of that meal will be completely different than if you had just eaten the two slices of bread. The proteins, fats and simple/complex carbs in the other foods will all effect the overall GI of that meal.9 -
It is calories that count the most when it comes to weight loss. But I find that I consume fewer calories, and feel fuller when I'm eating low carb.
I think this is absolutely the right reason to low carb or keto or cut carbs or whatever, if you find this is true for you. I think people only object if it's claimed that this works for everyone, that everyone finds the same foods or ways of eating satiating, or that it somehow works separate from calories.
I would totally recommend trying changing up macros and cutting refined carbs and maybe even trying low carb for someone struggling with a calorie goal, as I think it does work for a number of people. (I find low calories, which I am not doing now (I'm at maintenance and lost most of my weight around 1600 cal, but I did do 1250 cal when I first started), easier at around 100 g carbs or less).I still eat carbs sometimes, but I eat them in moderation. I eat bread, but I eat the Aldi sprouted grain bread, because the glycemic index is lower. The slices are smaller, but it's pretty dense and filling. 60 calories per slice. It's awesome.
I can't imagine any sprouted grain bread is actually low carb, though (bread shouldn't be, IMO). When I did keto I wouldn't have been able to fit in any bread -- I had a pretty high limit compared to what I see many doing (I aimed for around 60 or 65 g total, 35 g net), and basically could fit in a lot of vegetables (which for me is a non negotiable -- and YES, vegetables are carbs), some nuts and seeds, and some dairy (greek yogurt and cottage cheese, obviously cheese fit just fine). Even fruit would have been an issue (other than avocado), black soy beans worked, but no other beans, and grains and tubers were out.
Just mentioning this since reducing carbs some, which is what you seem to be talking about, or looking at GI (although I agree with Anvil on that) is not the same as doing keto.1 -
oh dear . Aragon was used against me. If he said my experiences were wrong, it must be so then!
So you found 2200 pubmed results that show that no one ever loses faster on a ketogenic diet? Wow... How ever did I miss that?
I don't know what you are arguing here.That my own experience is wrong? That anyone else who experienced that is wrong too? I never said that keto is magic, or that only people on a ketogenic diet may experience faster than normal losses, or that it applies to all people or even healthy people. I even tried to reply politely (before your previous 2 aggressive replies anyways), so I am not sure why you have your knickers in a knot. Because my experience does not match up to what you believe? Can't help you there.
I had just come back here to to link to a lecture I happened to be listening to while making dinner because it happened to reference a couple of studies that go along with my n= 1 experience (that some people, usually those with health issues helped by ketosis, may lose slightly faster on a keyogenic diet). Normally I don't keep studies bookmarked for reference.
I believe he discusses a few studies around 26 minutes in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLrVWtWmYRR2C8Lc8kn5qAmsSewdmssmmb&params=EAEYATgBSAFYAmILU3FrQUptWHQ5UkVoAA%3D%3D&v=8t1JN0RgvO4&mode=NORMAL
That's also known as confirmation bias. Just saying.
No one is knocking the idea that one's personal experience is what works for them. Studies will support either side because science shouldn't be biased. If you find that a ketogenic diet works for you, then keep doing it.
Any other straw man argument that leads to dogmatic and mystical statements denying energy balance or biochemistry tend to get picked up readily and while it's entertaining to see academics argue for their personal ideology, it actually creates a deeper wedge between camps and that spills over into gen pop who follow the same as their favorite speaker, and take it further into cult-like followings.
No diet has an inherent advantage over another when matched for energy and protein, and if anyone has to ask why those two variables are the most important when comparing diet strategies, then I wish them luck. The diet that does work is the one that dieters will adhere to in the long-term.
FYI, the advocates of energy balance are actually quite flexible in their approach and do recognize low carb dieting as a tool for the goal of the individual, while there are a lot of low carb advocates who either deny or fail to acknowledge that all macronutrients (including carbs) play a role in health management.
The bold cant be emphasizes enough. Because so many "low carb" studies are actually high protein studies. Because if any diet has an advantage in ad litibum or controlled environments its high protein.6 -
Yes! I love keto! I love the energy, mental clarity and food selection! There's variations of everything you can make and it helps you reduce your calories. Also helps water weight and inflammation. But as others said its not for everyone and some people feel easier low cal. I have had success with both but enjoy how i feel on keto and find I'm eating and thinking about food less. Fuller longer. Good luck in whatever you choose tho. And wouldn't hurt to try and see if it works for you:)4
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Yes! I love keto! I love the energy, mental clarity and food selection! There's variations of everything you can make and it helps you reduce your calories. Also helps water weight and inflammation. But as others said its not for everyone and some people feel easier low cal. I have had success with both but enjoy how i feel on keto and find I'm eating and thinking about food less. Fuller longer. Good luck in whatever you choose tho. And wouldn't hurt to try and see if it works for you:)
Someone losing "x" pound a week on keto is netting the same number of calories as someone losing "x" pound a week without doing keto, so it isn't that some people feel better doing "low cal," it's more like some people just don't find the restrictions of keto worth the benefits of appetite suppression or don't personally experience the benefit of appetite suppression.
In other words, to frame it as "low cal" versus keto isn't accurate.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes! I love keto! I love the energy, mental clarity and food selection! There's variations of everything you can make and it helps you reduce your calories. Also helps water weight and inflammation. But as others said its not for everyone and some people feel easier low cal. I have had success with both but enjoy how i feel on keto and find I'm eating and thinking about food less. Fuller longer. Good luck in whatever you choose tho. And wouldn't hurt to try and see if it works for you:)
Someone losing "x" pound a week on keto is netting the same number of calories as someone losing "x" pound a week without doing keto, so it isn't that some people feel better doing "low cal," it's more like some people just don't find the restrictions of keto worth the benefits of appetite suppression or don't personally experience the benefit of appetite suppression.
In other words, to frame it as "low cal" versus keto isn't accurate.
I worded that wrong I guess. If your doing keto its not about the calories as much as macros is what i meant. Doing CICO your paying attention too calories. Keto you pay attention too fats carbs and proteins there a diffrent way of scale. When worrying about calories you eat more lean things keto you pile on the fat.16 -
And there not always netting the same. Most girls here aim for 1200-1600. On keto if you go more into 2000 you still lose given your macros are still right19
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And there not always netting the same. Most girls here aim for 1200-1600. On keto if you go more into 2000 you still lose given your macros are still right
No.
You don't eat more calories and lose the same amount after the initial (irrelevant) water weight drop.
It's entirely possible that more women choose 1200 than need to, and that some could be losing on 2000, but that's a separate issue (and I've seen LOTS of people on keto eating super low cal -- that's one reason the appetite suppressant effect is a big deal for some, if they get it).
Also, I'd say that focusing on only eating lean things is NOT something everyone doing non keto diets does. It wouldn't work for me, and lots of people (even women) here seem to feel similarly.7 -
I have a year experiance on keto. Aswell as CICO. Both with success. I know how it all works. Please do your research.24
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And there not always netting the same. Most girls here aim for 1200-1600. On keto if you go more into 2000 you still lose given your macros are still right
I don't know that most "girls" here aim for 1,200-1,600 (I don't have access to the data you're basing that claim on), but if someone is losing at 2,000 on keto, they would also lose at 2,000 on a non-keto plan. Keto works by creating a deficit, it doesn't change how energy works.
You can't eat more calories and lose the same amount.
Someone who is doing keto may be focusing on macros and someone who is counting calories may be focusing on calories, but they're just different ways to get to to the same destination -- a calorie deficit.14 -
I've done lots of research, and also tried keto for a period of time (I was at maintenance).
Keto is not separate from CICO, btw, and CICO is not calorie counting. But also, of course, lots of people who do calorie counting find it beneficial to cut carbs (from some to keto levels) and lots of people who do keto also count calories.
If you magically lost just from keto-ing and regardless of calories, how do people bulk or maintain on keto?13 -
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I have a year experiance on keto. Aswell as CICO. Both with success. I know how it all works. Please do your research.
A year of personal experience doing a specific dietary plan like keto doesn't necessarily make you an expert in how weight loss is actually generated. I'm glad you've had success, but you have some fundamental misunderstandings about how weight loss is actually created.
When you ask us to do research on this, what research led you to conclude that weight loss on keto isn't created by a calorie deficit? I'm not aware of any studies that demonstrate this, so if you share your sources so we're all on the same page it may help the conversation move forward.6 -
I have a year experiance on keto. Aswell as CICO. Both with success. I know how it all works. Please do your research.
if you are counting/watching your macros you are still basically counting calories, as if your macros add up then your calories should fall into place.CICO is the formula for ALL ways of eating. a calorie is a measurement of energy. If you take in more energy than your burn you gain,less that you take in you lose and if its equal you maintain your weight.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes! I love keto! I love the energy, mental clarity and food selection! There's variations of everything you can make and it helps you reduce your calories. Also helps water weight and inflammation. But as others said its not for everyone and some people feel easier low cal. I have had success with both but enjoy how i feel on keto and find I'm eating and thinking about food less. Fuller longer. Good luck in whatever you choose tho. And wouldn't hurt to try and see if it works for you:)
Someone losing "x" pound a week on keto is netting the same number of calories as someone losing "x" pound a week without doing keto, so it isn't that some people feel better doing "low cal," it's more like some people just don't find the restrictions of keto worth the benefits of appetite suppression or don't personally experience the benefit of appetite suppression.
In other words, to frame it as "low cal" versus keto isn't accurate.
I worded that wrong I guess. If your doing keto its not about the calories as much as macros is what i meant. Doing CICO your paying attention too calories. Keto you pay attention too fats carbs and proteins there a diffrent way of scale. When worrying about calories you eat more lean things keto you pile on the fat.
Whatever diet you choose, you are always "doing" CICO...8 -
I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)18 -
Just correcting mis-information...4
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I notice a lot of negativity aimed at the Keto approach, funny that given that it is in a thread about keto, why bother following the thread if you're not into it or have anything positive to add?
Looking at the previous posts count in the 'anti' corner it perhaps it may explain!
Just saying ;-)
This is the debate area, so this particular thread is drawing those who are interested in debating various claims about keto.
If you're seeking pure positive comments in threads, I suggest checking out some other areas of the site. "Motivation and Support" may be a better fit, for example.8
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