Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

Addicted to sugar DEBATE

Options
13567…14

Replies

  • Need2Exerc1se
    Need2Exerc1se Posts: 13,576 Member
    Options
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
    Does it really matter whether it's a true clinical addiction or only a perceived addiction? Is all this debate over a word help anyone?

    I would offer that understanding whether it's a true physical addition could help at least some people understand that there is a possibility they could eat sugar-containing foods in moderation and they aren't required to eliminate them the way an alcoholic has to eliminate alcohol or a heroin addict has to eliminate heroin.

    A valid point. But how many pages of arguing back and forth is the average OP likely to read waiting for some actual advice on how to break these cravings, dependence, whatever?

    If I felt like I was addicted to something and asked for help, I'd be willing to read several pages of discussion.

    Oh, I wouldn't. Or at least I don't think I would. I guess I don't really know. But I don't think I would.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    edited September 2017
    Options
    Psychgrrl wrote: »
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    Addicted? Not addicted?

    nrsg7zfok5u8.jpg

    How about the current lack of ability to diagnose it as an illness? "Food Addiction" is not an actual mental illness that can be diagnosed. Binge Eating Disorder is, as is Gambling or Cocaine/Drug Addiction. Though it should be noted that gambling was just added as an addiction in 2014 (DSM 5).

    There is currently an emphasis for future research around the concept of "food addiction" as a whole and whether it falls under SUD (Substance Abuse Diagnosis) or whether it would be behavioral in nature. There are currently behavioral interventions and/or supports for concerning/problem behaviors around food and eating, but it (food/sugar addiction) cannot be diagnosed as a "disorder" in and of itself (yet).

    This is partly because there's no one food with which folks universally struggle. Studies have shown that pizza, as well as chocolate and ice cream, is a food people can have a hard time not-overeating. And these commonly over-eaten foods vary from culture to culture.

    Sugar is almost always consumed with other things like fat, making it hard to accuse sugar of being the addictive element on its own. I've known quite a few folks who have become overweight or obese because they use food as a coping mechanism. In that case, the food is the symptom, not the disease. And the underlying issue of why the person is over eating needs to be addressed. When it is, the overeating typically stops over time as new coping behaviors are adopted.

    For addiction, you need consistent evidence of pathology--how the addictive substance drives or controls problematic behaviors. We're not there yet with food/sugar. Or with internet/gaming.

    I don't think we ever will be there, frankly, because I think the problematic behaviors drive the substance consumption.

    I do think for a subset of people, there's an addiction to the behavior of eating itself (this is separate from BED), and I think this might explain some cases of severe obesity. But I think this is pretty rare.

    I think for most people who struggle with disinhibited consumption of certain foods, there are likely underlying issues that need to be addressed, and the strategies needed to address them will likely vary on an individual basis.

    Saying that, part of me doesn't care if someone wants to call their behavior an addiction or not (though I personally feel the term would rob me of agency if I were to apply it to myself). I'm so tired of the debate back and forth. It doesn't matter what someone calls it, what matters is how someone addresses it moving forward.

    Restriction - permanent restriction - can often backfire as a strategy if it's restriction of an entire category of something. Restriction of just certain trigger foods (I'm looking at you, peanut M&M's) is a viable strategy to employ and one that works for lots of people while they still moderate others.

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    Options
    aeloine wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    aeloine wrote: »
    ndj1979 wrote: »
    aeloine wrote: »
    bagge72 wrote: »
    mae_bud wrote: »
    @cmriverside I'm glad someone has the same view on this. Having struggled with addiction (and gone to treatment), I know that denying the physiological component of these kinds of things actually makes it harder for us to consciously change our behaviors. If I hadn't been taught about the way my body physically responds when I'm actively engaging in my addiction, I would have continued to beat myself up for not having the willpower to just not give in. Knowing that, yes, there is an actual, tangible thing happening in my body when I do this, and this is why it is so hard to stop, helped me find my resolve to do whatever it takes to not give in. Now I think: "Mind Over Matter." Yes, my biology drives me to want to engage in these addictive things, BUT, I KNOW they aren't good. Maybe it just pisses me off that my body tries really hard to make me give it these things, so, knowing that, when I consciously decide not to, it's like a big f-u to the addiction.

    Sorry for the long post. Hopefully the OP will find something helpful among my rambling.

    When you went to treatment, did they just suggest you use different forms of what you are addicted to, to help you out? If it was alcohol, did they say hey you're addicted to Jack Daniels, just have a couple beers instead, and you'll kick that habit? If it was drugs, did they say hey, enough with the heroin, just switch to meth, and coke. I'm guessing not. So if these people are so addicted to sugar, why do we tell them to just switch out there candy habit for foods with different types of sugar?

    This is the same discussion that you have to have when you're considering Overeaters Anonymous. You can't tell someone to cut out food. There are so many types of food out there that have naturally occurring sugars, and completely cutting it out could be detrimental to their health. You can't tell someone to NEVER eat fruit (hello, mother nature's best source of vitamins!), tomatoes, carrots, potatoes, celery, etc. Pretty much all fruit and vegetables have dietary sugar.

    We CAN, however, suggest that you try to eliminate or moderate PROCESSED, ADDED sugar by adding more whole foods to your diet. It's more of a nicotine gum rather than cigarettes approach, if you want to be hyperbolic.

    if sugar is addictive then why would you recommend that an addict continue to consume it?

    LITERALLY what's the alternative? WHAT would they eat?

    Hard core keto, I guess, or carnivore, LOL.

    But the fact is that unlike an alcoholic, who WILL abuse other forms of alcohol when just cutting out a particular form (it is so, so common to play this game" "no more hard alcohol," or "only beer, I don't care about beer"), most of the time when someone says they are addicted to "sugar" they don't have an issue with, say, fruit. Or a plain potato, which becomes sugar in the body. And the "sugar" they have an issue with invariably is a tasty treat that more often than not also has fat. So claiming it's about "sugar addiction" seems wrong.

    I think debating whether "sugar addiction" is the correct term is kind of pointless, but when people insist it IS a physical addiction exactly like, say, drugs, I think it is worth discussion, especially since the predominant model re drug addiction (and alcohol) is abstinence only. As you note, abstinence from sugar is really, really hard to impossible, but also -- as someone who has struggled with comfort eating that I think mimics addiction in some ways (but is different) -- abstinence from all sugar and everything that becomes sugar is generally completely pointless as it's NOT all things with sugar for most.

    And it's often things without sugar (and the studies that push "food addiction" DON'T show a difference between sugar and fat in terms of your brain lighting up with pleasure and all that. I think pizza -- a combination of fat and carb with little sugar -- scored really high on "addictiveness," for example.)

    I don't know if I'm just feeding the trolls, but my teachers have always told me to reason through tough problems.
    @ndj1979 says we can't tell "sugar addicts" to moderate sugar consumption. A meat and water diet is basically the only solution!

    Are you calling me a troll?

    I think his point is that if it's an addiction you can't rely on moderation.

    I'm not sure that's true (although I am inclined to that view), but I don't think it's truly an addiction (although I don't think the terminology matters or that it's helpful to argue about it beyond the importance of focusing on what actually is going on, whatever you call it). I definitely would agree that going to other sources of sugar or learning to moderate are good ideas, and that cutting excess added sugar is smart. (I think my first post in this thread suggested fruit, although I went on to give more extensive advice/thoughts.)
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 27,898 Member
    edited September 2017
    Options
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvsmomketo, this is not directed at you, since I know your issues are with carbs in general!

    However, for those who assert that they have a sugar addiction and that makes things harder, I wonder what you think of my comments above about mostly having fruit when craving sugar. If the problem with the "addiction" is that you tend to overeat or eat less healthful foods, wouldn't doing that, and otherwise eating enough protein and fat (which should not be too hard) make the "addiction" harmless?

    I am always curious about this when people insist they are struggling with sugar or carb cravings or have difficulty because of a sugar addiction.

    I happen to think it's good to learn to consume even other kinds of sweet treats in moderation if you can, but if the desire is simply for sugar this seems like a good way to satisfy it.

    While I don't claim to have a sugar addiction, I will say that moderating peach desserts is difficult for me. However, moderating peaches is not. I can be satisfied with 30 calories of peaches, yet it's difficult to stop at 300 calories of peach pie or cake. Pre MFP, there would have been 300 calories of vanilla ice cream as well.

    (Those are actual numbers - had 31 calories of peaches after dinner and the pie servings were over 300 calories.)

    I went peach picking at a local orchard last month. You have to get a minimum - in this case a half peck, which came to 6 pounds. I made a peach kuchen and a peach pie. One way I moderate baked goods is make them on Saturday and share them with my mother and brother on Sunday.

    I hardly ever make pies and wasn't happy with the way it came out - I was using my mother's cousin's wife's recipe from a 1945 cook book and the directions were quite sparse. I was going to try again this weekend using a JOC recipe which was very similar except it added 3 T of flour in with the peaches and had actual directions regarding temperatures and times.

    But my mother was critical about my use of white flour and my aunt will be there this weekend and she is super critical of all kinds of foods, so I've decided to just enjoy the fruit plain.

    But I did enjoy the silly email exchanges with my cousins about this pie recipe. My cousin even wrote a poem about it!
  • nutmegoreo
    nutmegoreo Posts: 15,532 Member
    Options
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvsmomketo, this is not directed at you, since I know your issues are with carbs in general!

    However, for those who assert that they have a sugar addiction and that makes things harder, I wonder what you think of my comments above about mostly having fruit when craving sugar. If the problem with the "addiction" is that you tend to overeat or eat less healthful foods, wouldn't doing that, and otherwise eating enough protein and fat (which should not be too hard) make the "addiction" harmless?

    I am always curious about this when people insist they are struggling with sugar or carb cravings or have difficulty because of a sugar addiction.

    I happen to think it's good to learn to consume even other kinds of sweet treats in moderation if you can, but if the desire is simply for sugar this seems like a good way to satisfy it.

    While I don't claim to have a sugar addiction, I will say that moderating peach desserts is difficult for me. However, moderating peaches is not. I can be satisfied with 30 calories of peaches, yet it's difficult to stop at 300 calories of peach pie or cake. Pre MFP, there would have been 300 calories of vanilla ice cream as well.

    (Those are actual numbers - had 31 calories of peaches after dinner and the pie servings were over 300 calories.)

    I went peach picking at a local orchard last month. You have to get a minimum - in this case a half peck, which came to 6 pounds. I made a peach kuchen and a peach pie. One way I moderate baked goods is make them on Saturday and share them with my mother and brother on Sunday.

    I hardly ever make pies and wasn't happy with the way it came out - I was using my mother's cousin's wife's recipe from a 1945 cook book and the directions were quite sparse. I was going to try again this weekend using a JOC recipe which was very similar except it added 3 T of flour in with the peaches and had actual directions regarding temperatures and times.

    But my mother was critical about my use of white flour and my aunt will be there this weekend and she is super critical of all kinds of foods, so I've decided to just enjoy the fruit plain.

    But I did enjoy the silly email exchanges with my cousins about this pie recipe. My cousin even wrote a poem about it!

    You gotta share the poem! Ode to a sparsely detailed peach pie recipe? Genius!
  • JustSomeEm
    JustSomeEm Posts: 20,197 MFP Moderator
    edited September 2017
    Options
    ahzcim6pyvu4.gif


    Hey folks - this thread was split from a request for help in the General Diet and Weight Loss forum. Please feel free to debate to your hearts content in this thread. And please keep the debate here. If you were looking for the original thread so that you could offer words of advice (rather than debate) to the OP there, click the link in the OP of this thread.

    Em
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited September 2017
    Options
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvsmomketo, this is not directed at you, since I know your issues are with carbs in general!

    However, for those who assert that they have a sugar addiction and that makes things harder, I wonder what you think of my comments above about mostly having fruit when craving sugar. If the problem with the "addiction" is that you tend to overeat or eat less healthful foods, wouldn't doing that, and otherwise eating enough protein and fat (which should not be too hard) make the "addiction" harmless?

    I am always curious about this when people insist they are struggling with sugar or carb cravings or have difficulty because of a sugar addiction.

    I happen to think it's good to learn to consume even other kinds of sweet treats in moderation if you can, but if the desire is simply for sugar this seems like a good way to satisfy it.

    While I don't claim to have a sugar addiction, I will say that moderating peach desserts is difficult for me. However, moderating peaches is not.

    If I had apple cobbler or apple cider donuts at home freely available (I do not), this would be the same for me vs. apples.

    That I cannot have a plate of cobbler and, without effort, stop at 300 calories if the plate contains 600 and it's well made doesn't seem to me to have a thing to do with addiction, it's about our reaction to servings. Part of what makes fruit easy to moderate for me is calories per volume (i.e., the absence of fat, as well as the larger amount of fiber and water), and part is that they have a form that lends itself to limited servings (I suppose melons are an exception, but the volume check still exists).

    That aside, I'm not questioning that people can struggle with moderation with sweet treats that contain FAT as well as sugar. I think that's far more common, really.

    What I'm saying, instead, is that a "sugar addiction," if that's really what it is, seems pretty easy to deal with to me, as if you crave sugar, eat fruit. Even if you eat a whole lot of it, for the vast majority of people that's not going to wreck their diet or cause any negative reprecussions.

    If what one is craving can't be satisfied by fruit, or one tends to focus on specific sugary items or sugar/fat combos, I think that's a separate issue, and one that also can be dealt with in various ways (I have mine, other people have different ones), but "sugar addiction" seems the wrong term. It's actually very relevant when we think through solutions/give advise.

    Aside: I sometimes like baking pie and spent a lot of years learning to do so well (strawberry rhubarb is my favorite, apple my most common, I love peaches so much plain that I never really cook desserts involving them). I am sometimes sad my skills get little workout as the trouble of baking a pie for a get together rarely appeals to me as it used to when I felt more free to eat as much as I wanted, but oh well. I never really enjoyed cakes or baked them, but pies were my thing. (Now I do cobbler or crisps sometimes, and even experimented with a low carb one that was tasty, but not as much as the real one, and not THAT low carb anyway -- it used Swerve instead of sugar, and nut flour.)

Categories