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Addicted to sugar DEBATE
Replies
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When I hear someone say they are addicted to sugar, the image that comes to my mind is them, ingesting tablespoons of cane sugar in private, like a junky.
Everyone has something they love. But that doesn't mean you NEED it.
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Just because we cannot clearly define exactly how someone can or cannot be addicted to sugar, doesn't mean it does not exist or that it exists. It is to my mind, a grey area of possibility.
They used to think people couldn't get addicted to sex. If you were addicted to sex, it was viewed as a mental illness because sex was not considered addictive....remember the term nymphomaniac? The same with alcohol....alcoholics were simply viewed as "drunks" and there was zero recognition until the fifties that alcohol could be an addiction. All the questions you've asked about is it the taste? The texture? The same sort of questions were asked about sex...is it the thrill of cheating? The comfort of human contact? The orgasms?
Again also about alcohol...is it the feeling of being drunk? Is it the taste? Is it the type of alcohol?(wine, beer, liquor, etc).
I think it's a possibility that should be scientifically studied further because there is enough anecdotal evidence from sufferers that indicate sugar addiction might exist.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Does it really matter whether it's a true clinical addiction or only a perceived addiction? Is all this debate over a word help anyone?
I would offer that understanding whether it's a true physical addition could help at least some people understand that there is a possibility they could eat sugar-containing foods in moderation and they aren't required to eliminate them the way an alcoholic has to eliminate alcohol or a heroin addict has to eliminate heroin.
As a point of fact, the majority of heroin addicts are only able to eliminate heroin if they are weaned off and purposely addicted to another opiate. Heroin was actually introduced to treat morphine addiction. Since heroin became a problem, there have been numerous opioids introduced that are used to "treat" heroin addicts...most commonly known is methodone. But make no mistake, a heroin addict is not really eliminating their addiction so much as getting addicted to a substitute opiate. So you can't really use whether or not a thing must be "eliminated" as a measuring stick for a "true physical addiction" as it's more complex than that.2 -
Are cattle and deer addicted to salt licks? Or are they attracted to the salt because it's hard to find in the natural environment and they are genetically predisposed to like it?
Sugar is a great source of quick energy. We are genetically predisposed to like it. Note how quickly baby latches on to mother's milk. It's a good darn thing we love to eat because it makes it a lot easier to survive.
The only difference is that we are no longer in a natural environment. Fat, salt, and sugar are now readily available. Heck, fresh blueberries are nearly universally available year round.8 -
The OP is asking for help not hair splitting!
Time was, I'd walk more than a mile in the rain for a chocolate bar, then buy three of the family size... So all my sympathy to you. smile:2 -
As far as I can tell, this is the break-out debate removed from the OP's original thread. So this would be the place to hair-split.11
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Are cattle and deer addicted to salt licks? Or are they attracted to the salt because it's hard to find in the natural environment and they are genetically predisposed to like it?
Sugar is a great source of quick energy. We are genetically predisposed to like it. Note how quickly baby latches on to mother's milk. It's a good darn thing we love to eat because it makes it a lot easier to survive.
The only difference is that we are no longer in a natural environment. Fat, salt, and sugar are now readily available. Heck, fresh blueberries are nearly universally available year round.
Interestingly breast milk has 7g sugars for 100g milk, but baby formula has 34g sugar for 100g. And studies have said that breastfed babies are less likely to grow up and become obese compared to formula fed babies. Maybe it's not an addiction so much as training the palate of babies to not only get used to high sugar contents? But also to associate high sugar food with the good feelings/memories of being held and fed as a baby?8 -
kristen8000 wrote: »When I hear someone say they are addicted to sugar, the image that comes to my mind is them, ingesting tablespoons of cane sugar in private, like a junky.
Everyone has something they love. But that doesn't mean you NEED it.
I actually have done this.
When I was a kid I used to binge-eat anything with sugar. There were so many candies and I was never a chocolate fan, so it was not about the fat for me. I would steal money to get it and steal candy to get it and I would do whatever it took. At nine years old, every day. So don't try to tell me there isn't a biological/physiological component. I would hide in the closet with the door closed and binge eat this stuff. My brain was seriously jacked.
And I've eaten entire big bags of skittles, red vines, Mike N Ikes cinnamon thingys, etc. This "has to be fat+sugar" thing is a red herring. ( I know you didn't say it, but it will come up time after time.)8 -
The point remains: if anyone who says they are addicted to sugar still ingests carbohydrates in any form, including vegetables, you are still getting sugar into your system.
You should have the same physical reaction to sugar if sugar is a substance of addiction and your addiction is not strictly a behavior-based thing.
I don't find it helpful for me personally to think of sugar as a substance of addiction. I struggle with behaviors around certain foods, and focus my efforts on changing my behaviors. I personally feel that keeps me accountable to the root of the real problem, which is ME. It also keeps me focused on what I'm going to do.
We can all go back and forth all day long on addiction - YES!, accition - NO!, and in the end, it doesn't matter. What matters is that some of us have problems with certain foods and every single one of us has to address those problems.
The fact that no one gets addicted to broccoli tells me that sugar is not addictive as a substance.10 -
My son used to slice off slabs of butter and eat it like cheese.0
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kristen8000 wrote: »
My son just discovered this with sriracha mayo. Yum. He also goes through almost a block of butter a week. LOL1 -
kristen8000 wrote: »
My son just discovered this with sriracha mayo. Yum. He also goes through almost a block of butter a week. LOL
I guess my point is, I did this because it tasted good. I think MOST people eat sugar for the same reason, not because there's a physical addiction. I also used to eat a bag of Ruffles and a container of french onion dip in one sitting. My teens and 20's were an amazingly freeing time, a time where I could eat WHATEVER I wanted and stay a healthy weight. Then my 30's hit and if I didn't want to be obese, I needed to learn how to "pair down" the habits. If being overweight didn't bother me, I'd still be doing those things and completely oblivious.
I think the "sugar addiction" thing in MOST cases is an excuse for some people to not honestly look at their habits and change them. Because it's easier to whine than to change.
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janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Does it really matter whether it's a true clinical addiction or only a perceived addiction? Is all this debate over a word help anyone?
I would offer that understanding whether it's a true physical addition could help at least some people understand that there is a possibility they could eat sugar-containing foods in moderation and they aren't required to eliminate them the way an alcoholic has to eliminate alcohol or a heroin addict has to eliminate heroin.
As a point of fact, the majority of heroin addicts are only able to eliminate heroin if they are weaned off and purposely addicted to another opiate. Heroin was actually introduced to treat morphine addiction. Since heroin became a problem, there have been numerous opioids introduced that are used to "treat" heroin addicts...most commonly known is methodone. But make no mistake, a heroin addict is not really eliminating their addiction so much as getting addicted to a substitute opiate. So you can't really use whether or not a thing must be "eliminated" as a measuring stick for a "true physical addiction" as it's more complex than that.
I wasn't using it as a measuring stick, I think you completely misunderstand what I wrote.1 -
Heck, habits are terrifically hard to break.2
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cmriverside wrote: »kristen8000 wrote: »When I hear someone say they are addicted to sugar, the image that comes to my mind is them, ingesting tablespoons of cane sugar in private, like a junky.
Everyone has something they love. But that doesn't mean you NEED it.
I actually have done this.
When I was a kid I used to binge-eat anything with sugar. There were so many candies and I was never a chocolate fan, so it was not about the fat for me. I would steal money to get it and steal candy to get it and I would do whatever it took. At nine years old, every day. So don't try to tell me there isn't a biological/physiological component. I would hide in the closet with the door closed and binge eat this stuff. My brain was seriously jacked.
And I've eaten entire big bags of skittles, red vines, Mike N Ikes cinnamon thingys, etc. This "has to be fat+sugar" thing is a red herring. ( I know you didn't say it, but it will come up time after time.)
The idea with the fat+sugar thing (as I think we've discussed before) is not that everyone will overeat fat+sugar and not other things. Lots of people mindlessly drink tons of soda, for example, and some people's taste preferences go to sweet carbs without fat (dry cereal, candy). But so, so many people who claim to have issues with "sugar" ONLY overeat sugar+fat and same with carbs (carbs+fat) and the claim that there's a special addictive reaction people have to sugar and only sugar, IN GENERAL, isn't supported even by those who claim to believe in food addiction, as -- as discussed earlier in this thread -- pizza and even just cheese score high.
If the issue is really and truly just a craving for sugar, and not really liking the taste of something, it seems like the trivially simple way of dealing with the problem would be to consume lower cal, more nutrient source of sugar, like fruit. Presto, problem solved.
My thought it that it's likely more complicated most of the time, like emotional eating or habit-related things or just having trouble moderating something that tastes really good to you.4 -
Addicted? Not addicted?
How about the current lack of ability to diagnose it as an illness? "Food Addiction" is not an actual mental illness that can be diagnosed. Binge Eating Disorder is, as is Gambling or Cocaine/Drug Addiction. Though it should be noted that gambling was just added as an addiction in 2014 (DSM 5).
There is currently an emphasis for future research around the concept of "food addiction" as a whole and whether it falls under SUD (Substance Abuse Diagnosis) or whether it would be behavioral in nature. There are currently behavioral interventions and/or supports for concerning/problem behaviors around food and eating, but it (food/sugar addiction) cannot be diagnosed as a "disorder" in and of itself (yet).
This is partly because there's no one food with which folks universally struggle. Studies have shown that pizza, as well as chocolate and ice cream, is a food people can have a hard time not-overeating. And these commonly over-eaten foods vary from culture to culture.
Sugar is almost always consumed with other things like fat, making it hard to accuse sugar of being the addictive element on its own. I've known quite a few folks who have become overweight or obese because they use food as a coping mechanism. In that case, the food is the symptom, not the disease. And the underlying issue of why the person is over eating needs to be addressed. When it is, the overeating typically stops over time as new coping behaviors are adopted.
For addiction, you need consistent evidence of pathology--how the addictive substance drives or controls problematic behaviors. We're not there yet with food/sugar. Or with internet/gaming.
Not being there yet, however, does not mean we won't get there. Coding manuals are routinely updated for this very reason.6 -
If people can be addicted to gambling, sex, drugs, etc, why is it so hard to accept that someone can be addicted to consuming sugar? They all cause reactions inside the body that release hormones that make us feel good, therefore we keep going back to that thing that gives us that feeling. People can be addicted to sugar just like anything else.
What is gained by this?
Is there a "Hey I'm addicted too?" trophy the rest of us aren't aware of?
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If people can be addicted to gambling, sex, drugs, etc, why is it so hard to accept that someone can be addicted to consuming sugar? They all cause reactions inside the body that release hormones that make us feel good, therefore we keep going back to that thing that gives us that feeling. People can be addicted to sugar just like anything else.What is gained by this?
Is there a "Hey I'm addicted too?" trophy the rest of us aren't aware of?
I think her point was that being pedantic about sugar addiction isn't helpful, plus since there is behavioral addiction, why bother insisting that sugar is not physically addictive. Something doesn't need to be physically addictive to be a problem - for example, gambling.
What IS helpful is suggesting strategies for changing behavior.10 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »nvsmomketo, this is not directed at you, since I know your issues are with carbs in general!
However, for those who assert that they have a sugar addiction and that makes things harder, I wonder what you think of my comments above about mostly having fruit when craving sugar. If the problem with the "addiction" is that you tend to overeat or eat less healthful foods, wouldn't doing that, and otherwise eating enough protein and fat (which should not be too hard) make the "addiction" harmless?
I am always curious about this when people insist they are struggling with sugar or carb cravings or have difficulty because of a sugar addiction.
I happen to think it's good to learn to consume even other kinds of sweet treats in moderation if you can, but if the desire is simply for sugar this seems like a good way to satisfy it.
While I don't claim to have a sugar addiction, I will say that moderating peach desserts is difficult for me. However, moderating peaches is not. I can be satisfied with 30 calories of peaches, yet it's difficult to stop at 300 calories of peach pie or cake. Pre MFP, there would have been 300 calories of vanilla ice cream as well.
(Those are actual numbers - had 31 calories of peaches after dinner and the pie servings were over 300 calories.)
I went peach picking at a local orchard last month. You have to get a minimum - in this case a half peck, which came to 6 pounds. I made a peach kuchen and a peach pie. One way I moderate baked goods is make them on Saturday and share them with my mother and brother on Sunday.
I hardly ever make pies and wasn't happy with the way it came out - I was using my mother's cousin's wife's recipe from a 1945 cook book and the directions were quite sparse. I was going to try again this weekend using a JOC recipe which was very similar except it added 3 T of flour in with the peaches and had actual directions regarding temperatures and times.
But my mother was critical about my use of white flour and my aunt will be there this weekend and she is super critical of all kinds of foods, so I've decided to just enjoy the fruit plain.
But I did enjoy the silly email exchanges with my cousins about this pie recipe. My cousin even wrote a poem about it!
You gotta share the poem! Ode to a sparsely detailed peach pie recipe? Genius!
@nutmegoreo it was more an ode to his mother and her pie making, but here it is:
A Cousin Asks for a Recipe for My Mother’s Peach Pie
for Mary and Trudy
In my mind, there is still
that fruity smudge
grazing the taste buds,
the glazed confection that once
jangled the sweet tooth
of any summer visitor or host.
Now, a hardier friend, swapping
stories at her husband’s
post-funeral gathering,
remembers her and my mother’s cohort
with a tear traded for a guffaw,
a smiling grimace at the joke
I pulled off at my mother’s expense.
The peach trees still spread
their blossoms and stones
over the dessert plates
of a history more sad than sugar,
of pie crusts pricked to vent
the ripening steam.
My mother’s hand
was a sometimes glad hand
back-tracing the small stains
that betrayal had carved
into her rolling pin’s wood.
Her fingertips pressed into the dough,
crimping the crust, crisscrossing
the doughy strips into ladders
of a tart collusion of peeled crescents
and lemon zest
that soon melted along the back
of the tongue
before it was lost
in the acid churn
of the gut.
And yet they still spring their legends,
those delectable wedges
doled out in summer idylls
by pond or bay or in the thicket
of suburban smog,
even if she
has lost herself in the small vapors
and wisps that time turns to film
on the bottom of a glass pie plate
that can never be scraped
utterly clean.10 -
kshama2001 wrote: »If people can be addicted to gambling, sex, drugs, etc, why is it so hard to accept that someone can be addicted to consuming sugar? They all cause reactions inside the body that release hormones that make us feel good, therefore we keep going back to that thing that gives us that feeling. People can be addicted to sugar just like anything else.What is gained by this?
Is there a "Hey I'm addicted too?" trophy the rest of us aren't aware of?
I think her point was that being pedantic about sugar addiction isn't helpful, plus since there is behavioral addiction, why bother insisting that sugar is not physically addictive. Something doesn't need to be physically addictive to be a problem - for example, gambling.
What IS helpful is suggesting strategies for changing behavior.
I realize this is my pet peeve, but I also think calling it what it is can be helpful.
If someone insists that their issue is just addiction to blackjack, and ignores that they have an issue with the lottery ('cause they are in denial that that's gambling) or the stock market, that's a problem.
The issue with "sugar" or "carbs" on this site is really the opposite. It's so trendy to see sugar (or carbs) as the source of all evil, that people blame them and claim "sugar addiction" when the truth is (with some exceptions, sure) that their issues if they actually think about it are different. For example, they may have zero problems consuming fruit (and not even have an interest in fruit sometimes). Yet fruit is a high sugar food, and if the issue were -- as is often claimed -- a physical issue with sugar or even a "behavioral" addiction to "sugar" (whatever that would mean), fruit ought to inspire the same reaction.
Similarly, it may be that the issue isn't sugar at all, but a use of foods the person likes (often sweets if the person has a sweet tooth, but perhaps cupcakes and cookies, not soda, because of taste preferences, or even oatmeal cookies, not Oreos) for emotional purposes. If the person stops sweets, they may find they are using other foods that they love for the same purpose.
Or in other cases it might not be this at all. It might be a pattern of saying "this is bad for me, I'm never eating this again" and then blowing it and feeling like it's ruined but also thinking "I'll never have this again, so I might as well make the best of it and eat it ALL!"
Or it could be an eating addiction of sorts, or a bingeing problem.
I don't really care if the person wants to call the issue "addiction" and in some cases I might agree (and it doesn't really matter," but being specific about what's going on is ESSENTIAL to getting good advice and working it out for yourself, IMO.
The idea that it's just a SUGAR ADDICTION because SUGAR is BAD and ADDICTIVE, physically, like heroin (which is commonly insisted on, not by OP, but by some other poster quoting some anti sugar guru or another), and that all sugar addictions are the same and mean you can never have sugar (or never have BAD sugar, because fruit sugar is different and not addictive -- which makes no sense, it just doesn't, it's scientifically inaccurate), IMO really prevents a sensible discussion of what would help with feeling out of control and getting a handle on it, IMO.
I get the impression that you want to prevent this kind of more specific discussion and just say "oh, well, it's sugar addiction, so..." and I really don't see how that's helpful. Whether it's called addiction or not, it's generally not really just sugar or all sugar, the issue is NOT that the body is having a physical withdrawal (it could be keto flu, but one can cut way down on sugary treats without keto flu), and making it all about sugar rather than being specific about what exactly is the difficulty, what is being craved or overeaten or missed or whatever and when and why and under what circumstances seems to me to be what prevents real discussion of strategies.
And I will note I gave some strategy ideas in the other thread that I found helpful in my own experience.10 -
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The issue with "sugar" or "carbs" on this site is really the opposite. It's so trendy to see sugar (or carbs) as the source of all evil, that people blame them and claim "sugar addiction" when the truth is (with some exceptions, sure) that their issues if they actually think about it are different. For example, they may have zero problems consuming fruit (and not even have an interest in fruit sometimes). Yet fruit is a high sugar food, and if the issue were -- as is often claimed -- a physical issue with sugar or even a "behavioral" addiction to "sugar" (whatever that would mean), fruit ought to inspire the same reaction.
Here's the thing with fruit. I have eaten pounds of apples, peaches, cherries, watermelon, fruit salad, grapes, mangoes, pineapple. I have binged on hundreds and hundreds of calories and huge bowls of fruit. LOL, there are consequences to fruit. First of all the obvious consequence that we all know is the fiber/water/it has to go somewhere issue. Second is that it is really filling, so it's hard to keep eating it until the high kicks in, because I have to eat so much of it to get the same brain-kick as straight sugar. Straight sugar or candy is like mainlining fruit. So it is basically the same thing, only without physical discomfort/consequences.
Anyone who has been an alcohol or drug addict knows that it starts with wine or beer on the weekends and/or pot and in the end, it takes heroin or meth and Jack Daniels or vodka in the handles - or six bottles of wine or 30 cans of beer Every Day. Hard liquor is easier, less bloating, quicker drunk. There is a progression and a tolerance, and it happens by over-loading those receptors in the brain. The desire to feel that dopamine rush is strong, and it gets harder to achieve, hence the higher alcohol percentage products (or just greater quantity.)
Humans weren't created to ingest this level of concentrated sugars in such quantity. The dopamine receptor gates are blown wide open and more and more receptors are created to intake the overwhelming flow of dopamine released by the concentrated sugar (same thing happens with alcohol/drugs.)Those additional receptors mean additional cravings. If we didn't have processed sugars, we would all be just eating normal amounts of carbs and a little honey and maple because it would be so expensive. A grass (sugar cane and corn) that is so easily produced has made a big problem out of this. People with compulsion issues may have started out with a little behavior problem but it becomes a physical problem in time and with over-consumption and that is partly due to cheap availability in the last century.
It's a physical/physiological thing that happens. It really happens. Of course it's complicated. Human behavior always is.
The DSM isn't written to include it - yet. It will be. It may be "simple carbs" but I think it should be "sugar," it's just difficult to get a definition. And you can split hairs all you want, it's a real thing. Problem is, then that's one more "disease" the insurance companies and the food industry really doesn't want to see happen, so it's gonna take time and people speaking up. It took decades for, "Alcohol Dependence," to become something other than a character defect. It isn't all a thinking problem.16 -
...and I finished off the Little Debbies.
But now I'll be up until 1AM with all this zippity doo dah extra energy. 
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cmriverside wrote: »...and I finished off the Little Debbies. But now I'll be up until 1AM with all this zippity doo dah extra energy.
LOL! Can you get some housework done? Thats usually what i do
Thank you for posting what you have in this thread. What still leaves me wondering though, is at least in my recollection you are literally the only poster who has said that you would eat straight sugar or large amounts of fruits.
So perhaps an actual sugar addiction is a real but rare thing that is being co-opted by anti-sugar mania? Most people who talk about it say they got over their addiction by switching to fruits, or honey, or something else they consider "healthy". Honestly if everyone's situation sounded as you described, I would probably have a different opinion on the issue.4 -
Well, but no one can eat enough fruit...and why would anyone be honest about it? On this forum you get shouted down.
I've been here long enough to not care, and I've seen enough people with similar stories who get shut down by the vocal few. Even some long-time high-count posters have given up on this debate because it's exhausting. I know what I know about my experience, but it's not easy to stand up for my personal truth when it is so against the MFP dogma. I'm on an addiction forum as well, and this story is very common over there - where it doesn't get poo-pooed.8 -
cmriverside wrote: »...and I finished off the Little Debbies. But now I'll be up until 1AM with all this zippity doo dah extra energy.
LOL! Can you get some housework done? Thats usually what i do
Thank you for posting what you have in this thread. What still leaves me wondering though, is at least in my recollection you are literally the only poster who has said that you would eat straight sugar or large amounts of fruits.
So perhaps an actual sugar addiction is a real but rare thing that is being co-opted by anti-sugar mania? Most people who talk about it say they got over their addiction by switching to fruits, or honey, or something else they consider "healthy". Honestly if everyone's situation sounded as you described, I would probably have a different opinion on the issue.
I've done that too but I don't like fruit a lot. I would eat a lot of grapes, pineapple or dried fruit. Lots of dried fruit - like a soup bowl of raisins... maybe with a bit of cereal. I've "overdosed" on dried prunes and apricots when that was all I had. So not good.
When I had fruit, I just wanted more sugars. I was not satiated. If I have my sugars, I NEVER say "that was enough because I had my little bit".3 -
ooooohhhhhh apricots. Raisins. I've gotten sick a couple times from apricots.
It seems dates are a big thing with sugar cravers. I know more than one person who "broke" their sugar thing but buy Costco size bags of dates. *nods*2
This discussion has been closed.
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