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Addicted to sugar DEBATE
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I love sweets- the more I ate them-the more I wanted. I think for some it truly is addictive. A little sugar is fine, but for me it is like a drug. An interesting film that some may enjoy is "Sugar Blues"- This was also a book written a few decades ago. Our bodies are simply not designed to process large amounts of refined white sugar. I switched to stevia and cut out sweets for the most part and my sweet cravings are now greatly diminished and I don't have the crashes I was having before. Everyone's different, but for me sugar is definitely an addiction.7
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cmriverside wrote: »The issue with "sugar" or "carbs" on this site is really the opposite. It's so trendy to see sugar (or carbs) as the source of all evil, that people blame them and claim "sugar addiction" when the truth is (with some exceptions, sure) that their issues if they actually think about it are different. For example, they may have zero problems consuming fruit (and not even have an interest in fruit sometimes). Yet fruit is a high sugar food, and if the issue were -- as is often claimed -- a physical issue with sugar or even a "behavioral" addiction to "sugar" (whatever that would mean), fruit ought to inspire the same reaction.
Here's the thing with fruit. I have eaten pounds of apples, peaches, cherries, watermelon, fruit salad, grapes, mangoes, pineapple. I have binged on hundreds and hundreds of calories and huge bowls of fruit.
Again, I am not saying this cannot be the case. It USUALLY is not. There are many posts in this thread alone (or the original part of it that is elsewhere) with people saying they had a "sugar addiction" or other issues with sweets but NOT fruit, that they cut out those but are eating fruit.
So again, conflating a bunch of different things because people use the term "sugar addiction" for all and then insisting all must be treated with a model (abstinence) which doesn't really fit isn't useful. If "sugar" is the addictive substance (which clearly is not always the case, not usually even) and the correct model is abstinence (since it's just like drug addiction), then the right answer is a super low carb or carnivore diet. And, hey, I don't really think so, but maybe it is in some cases. But I hope you'd agree with me that this is a minority of the cases, it's clearly not all, so we do need more information.
If I ask OP "how about fruit" and OP says "I end up eating 3000 calories in fruit," I'd suggest other things (including, perhaps, keto).
As for you need a lot of fruit to get the sweetness and so on, no, that's not my experience, and there's about as much sugar in a cookie as in an apple. FOR YOU, apparently you are seeking a sugar high? The insulin spike that is unhealthy? I think that's a different issue than most people who seem to have difficulty moderating specific sugary sweets so assuming that anyone who says they have a sugar issue is talking about that is not sensible.
I'd agree that if they say they ARE talking about that, the "what about fruit" advise is not helpful.
For example, my biggest issue with moderating food/overeating is emotional or stress eating. Fruit doesn't help with that either (although avoiding trigger foods does, and I sometimes have fruit instead). My advice for someone whose sugar addiction seemed to be emotional eating would be about working on the underlying issues relating to that (which might be kshama's favored CBT or some other approach). But it would not be "keto" or carnivore, because it's not really about sugar here, even if the go to for the person or trigger food happens to be sugar sweets.
See the point? What gets called "sugar addiction" is a whole bunch of different things.Anyone who has been an alcohol or drug addict knows that it starts with wine or beer on the weekends and/or pot and in the end, it takes heroin or meth and Jack Daniels or vodka in the handles - or six bottles of wine or 30 cans of beer Every Day.
Not necessarily, and I say this as a sober alcoholic who was extremely far gone at one point. (I occasionally drank some hard liquor, but very very rarely. I mostly drank wine, with the second place going to beer.) I totally agree that "just stick to wine" doesn't work for a drunk (and I mentioned in a prior post that it was a common thing to try), but I also mentioned that sugar is different (even apart from the other differences), because: (1) drinking a 6-pack or bottle of wine a day is bad for you, even if you stick to that, and (2) when you are under the influence, you probably won't, and (3) a whole bunch of other reasons. (Basically, being regularly drunk is damaging, psychologically, morally, and physically, in a way that eating fruit is not.)
So that "just drink beer" doesn't work for an alcohol doesn't mean "eat fruit" won't work for someone who struggles with overeating sweet treats. Indeed, there are posts from self-proclaimed sugar addicts in this thread (or the other piece of it) who say that cutting out sweets but eating fruit worked for them.Humans weren't created to ingest this level of concentrated sugars in such quantity. The dopamine receptor gates are blown wide open and more and more receptors are created to intake the overwhelming flow of dopamine released by the concentrated sugar (same thing happens with alcohol/drugs.)Those additional receptors mean additional cravings. If we didn't have processed sugars, we would all be just eating normal amounts of carbs and a little honey and maple because it would be so expensive. A grass (sugar cane and corn) that is so easily produced has made a big problem out of this. People with compulsion issues may have started out with a little behavior problem but it becomes a physical problem in time and with over-consumption and that is partly due to cheap availability in the last century.
Maybe this happens to some, but again it does not appear that the main addiction issues (for those who believe in food addiction, not just eating addiction) is focused in on the most sugary or most carby things at all. Pizza, again, scores hardest. Most people seem to find sugar in combination with other foods to be much more difficult to avoid than hard candy. So I don't think the physical explanation works well.
Also, a concentrated source of sugar for the body is white bread or plain pasta (rapidly turns into the same thing), it's been around for a long time, and plain white bread doesn't seem to have the same kind of issue, again for most. I agree there are some for whom these may be the key trigger foods.
But given that there's more to it, I really don't think the "it's just physical" works. And if it does, the answer would have to be carnivore, no? Which it rarely is.10 -
cmriverside wrote: »...and I finished off the Little Debbies.
But now I'll be up until 1AM with all this zippity doo dah extra energy. 
I am genuinely curious here: if you see sugar addiction the way you described it in this thread, and consider yourself a sugar addict, but also have been successfully maintaining a weight loss for a long time, what do you do? (since it's apparently not cutting out sugar and, from this post, not even cutting out concentrated sources of sugar). What would your advice be?
Do you think my comments about needing to understand specifically what the OP is talking about and struggling with in order to give helpful advice are wrong? Do you not agree that people use "sugar addiction" to talk about a whole bunch of different things?7 -
Saying that you are addicted to sugar is like saying you're addicted to oxygen...12
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ImmortalFire wrote: »I reckon at the heart of this discussion it depends on how you define 'addiction'. If like me, you consider it to have a spectrum then yes, I believe sugar does have addictive qualities, though granted not as severe as drug/alcohol addiction.
I might agree with this, except I see no reason to limit it to sugar vs. other foods that you find craveable. Hedonistic eating is a thing, but not (again) focused squarely on sugar or even carbs.
I've read some stuff from Nicole Avena, who was involved in that study, and she does not limit it to sugar, and talks about highly palatable foods. I'll look at those pieces, but am interested in your answer to this question.
Like sugar, fat is something we did not have in the same concentrated quantities throughout lots of human history (and not tastily combined with carbs and salt, usually with protein). Stephan Guyenet is someone who talks about human cravings and overeating being driven by the part of our bodies that were helpful at one point, seeing fat and carbs (esp sugar) as great signs of calories and thus helpful foods, that now don't help us.
If one is attached to the idea that addiction must mean abstinence, however, recognizing links and using the term may not be helpful.
I actually do see some links (and some huge differences) when drawing on my own experiences with alcohol. I know that I have to some extent used food as a replacement for booze (and I think this was helpful to some extent, NOT inherently harmful). I also think some of the tools I used to kick booze are helpful in changing my behavior with food, including cutting out some things for a time. But I don't think it's exactly the same, and one way is that I don't think drinking in moderation would be a good thing for me (or possible, much as I'd like to think it was), but I do not believe that I have no choice but to become a carnivore (and also I find other kinds of food easier to "abuse" than pure sugar, including cheese and certain kinds of meat).
I think this kind of conversation is more interesting and useful than focusing on the term "addiction."5 -
if someone were addicted to sugar, wouldnt they be eating table sugar directly as well? if that is not the case, they are not addicted to sugar, but something else.
People do this. I've seen more than one person eat plain sugar. And even more eat straight honey (I've done that myself). Also knew a lady who ate sugar sandwiches (just butter and sugar on white bread).3 -
I'm addicted to nicotine I am also psychologically addicted to processed sugars and fats in the same way, as someone who's tried to quit/moderate both and has succeeded and failed many a time I find it nearly as hard for both. I'll be quitting the smokes October I think it's fine to define/recognise certain foods or some peoples relationship to foods as addiction.
It's not making excuses, it's giving reasons and if treating something as an addiction helps them tackle it what harm is it to anybody else? I don't think people should play gatekeepers for words that people use to describe their relationships to foods, it is extremely complex and no two peoples experiences or perceptions will be the same.
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An interesting opinion piece published recently called "The Pursuit of Pleasure is a Modern Day Addiction"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/09/pursuit-of-pleasure-modern-day-addiction
In this piece, the author argues that it's the dopamine our brains release when we do something pleasurable which is the true addiction. So if we drink alcohol, smoke, eat sugar, look at porn, get friended on FB, we get a release of dopamine...which causes us to want more dopamine so we repeat the activity that gives us that feel good feeling. He talks about how serotonin is the feel good but satisfied feeling and how modern day stress reduce serotonin levels such that we are seeking more dopamine. He basically points to the increasing rates of depression ( linked to low serotonin...caused by stress in his opinion) as a symptom of this increased need for dopamine.
This is all just the author's theory, not facts.
Here's the flaw in the theory:
Essentially he's saying that it's the release of dopamine to which individuals become addicted. If that were the case, people wouldn't need to keep going back for more sugar to get their dopamine rush. They could pet a puppy, hear a good joke or get a massage. Since all of those things would cause a dopamine release, the craving would be satisfied.
The difference when it comes to physical addiction is that the addictive substance (typically a drug) overrides the "pleasure center" of the brain to where you no longer feel pleasure without it (a heroin addict can't get their fix from cocaine).
And yes, I realize there are behavioral addictions (such as gambling) but I think it's important to recognize the difference between an addiction to a substance (heroin, cocaine, alcohol...) and a behavioral addiction (gambling, sex...) as it could greatly affect treatment. With a behavioral addiction, it's the activity, the doing, to which one becomes addicted. For instance, a gambling addict won't care if it's blackjack, slots or horse racing. It's the thrill of risking their money in hopes of winning that drives them. Similarly, an eating addict doesn't care if it's sugar, potato chips, cookies, pizza or celery. They get their dopamine release from the act of eating which is their method of choice.
I think it can even be enlightening to think of behavioral addictions more like severe behavioral disorders.8 -
Would it be safe to say that people are addicted to the good feels that sugar has? (Is that dopamine?)
I was thinking about it, and if someone was truly addicted to sugar as a substance, then anything with sweeteners wouldn't hit the spot would it? That's why trading nicotine-free vaping for real cigarettes didn't work for me, but nicotine mints worked. It wasn't the act of smoking I was addicted to it was the nicotine itself. So sweeteners wouldn't work as a trade-off for sugar if someone was really addicted to sugar.
Sorry if this has been already discussed, 4 pages is a lot of reading for someone with a short attention span.2 -
Would it be safe to say that people are addicted to the good feels that sugar has? (Is that dopamine?)
Could also be the taste.
If it were simply physical, I think fruit or refined starches would be the same, and people would be drawn to plain sugar over sugar plus fat. That it's sugar plus fat suggests that either fat brings a good feeling as well (which I think is true) and that taste is part of it.
Comfort food tends to also bring in memories/association/habit.
It's probably a combination.
I can use tasty food (even sweets of certain kinds) to self sooth and have "abused" them in that way. I would not get the same effect from eating sugar straight, and do not gravitate to just sugar even in tasty forms. Maybe this means "I just don't understand," but I certainly have struggled with plenty of the same things people are calling "addiction."
Problem (IMO) with the "addiction" term is that it brings in associations with other addictions (the idea that any substance that leads to addiction = bad and harmful) and in our culture the idea that the only response is total abstinence. If we don't assume this (kshama seems to be one who does not), I think the discussion becomes easier.6 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Would it be safe to say that people are addicted to the good feels that sugar has? (Is that dopamine?)
Could also be the taste.
If it were simply physical, I think fruit or refined starches would be the same, and people would be drawn to plain sugar over sugar plus fat. That it's sugar plus fat suggests that either fat brings a good feeling as well (which I think is true) and that taste is part of it.
Comfort food tends to also bring in memories/association/habit.
Definately, I think that is why some people prefer sweet and others savory. I guess the savory would be more fat than sugar.1 -
Someone a few pages back said about how you won't tell an alcohol addict to trade Jack Daniels for beer. I think in most cases the trade off can be something different. Most ex-smokers trade nicotine for food/sugar (not alcohol as the two generally go hand-in-hand). I think if you have an addictive personality you can be addicted to anything. Be it sugar/shopping/gambling/nicotine/alcohol/adrenaline (base-jumping anyone?). You hear of wealthy people being caught stealing because of the adrenaline kick they get.4
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LOL, I will add that I've done 1400 skydives. I'm the sugar addict, so of course.1
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...and I'm agreeing with you Lois.1
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cmriverside wrote: »LOL, I will add that I've done 1400 skydives. I'm the sugar addict, so of course.
Holy crap, 1400 skydives!! I would love to skydive, but I'm not sure I have the cahoonas.1 -
Following on from my previous comment about how I intend to quit smoking a lot can be said of using some of the same techniques to quit sugar or whatever your food addiction is.
Firstly I intend to not have any cigarettes or smoking paraphernalia in the house I would say the same to people with certain food addictions is make sure you don't have that stuff in the house, get rid of your sugary cereals, biscuits and crisps if you can't stop yourself. Also don't give yourself opportunities to buy that stuff by making your lunches from scratch at work so you don't eat out and make food choices hungry. And I will also be avoiding situations where people will be smoking around me and offering me cigarettes (so the pub for me) in the case of sugar, at work the kitchen always has cake in it due to office birthdays etc so I try to avoid the kitchen during those times.
I think the similarities and cessation methods can be applied to both. So I have no problems referring to it as an addiction if it helps others. 2 -
Someone a few pages back said about how you won't tell an alcohol addict to trade Jack Daniels for beer. I think in most cases the trade off can be something different. Most ex-smokers trade nicotine for food/sugar (not alcohol as the two generally go hand-in-hand). I think if you have an addictive personality you can be addicted to anything. Be it sugar/shopping/gambling/nicotine/alcohol/adrenaline (base-jumping anyone?). You hear of wealthy people being caught stealing because of the adrenaline kick they get.
I have seen addicts be treated with methadone so yes there is sometimes that trade offs happen...but I agree with the above sort of.
You see this a lot with the hard core gym goers who gave up drinking/drugs and are now on their health kick.
Great for them to be off the drugs and/or drink but they go overboard with their next "thing" too...
but I don't think going overboard is the same as addicted.
Addiction is defined as 2 :compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (such as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly :persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
another definition is to be enthusiastically devoted to a particular thing or activity....but is that "true" addiction.
I think the term addiction is overused similiarly to stalker....people joke oh he stalked me for about a week but then let it go...and in this sense it's I am addicted to sugar when it's really you just like it a lot.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Would it be safe to say that people are addicted to the good feels that sugar has? (Is that dopamine?)
Could also be the taste.
If it were simply physical, I think fruit or refined starches would be the same, and people would be drawn to plain sugar over sugar plus fat. That it's sugar plus fat suggests that either fat brings a good feeling as well (which I think is true) and that taste is part of it.
Comfort food tends to also bring in memories/association/habit.
It's probably a combination.
I can use tasty food (even sweets of certain kinds) to self sooth and have "abused" them in that way. I would not get the same effect from eating sugar straight, and do not gravitate to just sugar even in tasty forms. Maybe this means "I just don't understand," but I certainly have struggled with plenty of the same things people are calling "addiction."
Problem (IMO) with the "addiction" term is that it brings in associations with other addictions (the idea that any substance that leads to addiction = bad and harmful) and in our culture the idea that the only response is total abstinence. If we don't assume this (kshama seems to be one who does not), I think the discussion becomes easier.
I tend to think it's the taste too, the more I think about it.
It would explain why vegetables don't do the same thing to the people in this thread who have experienced issues with fruit and disinhibited consumption.
If the desire for a sugar "hit" was needed due to addiction (as I see it), even tomatoes, or squash, or just broccoli eaten in enough quantity would supply glucose to your bloodstream to give you that sugar hit that your body was craving.
No craving happens for those foods, no anticipation (no dopamine release since dopamine is a hormone of anticipation) and we already know that unlike drugs of addiction, sugar doesn't hijack your pleasure centers and keep the high going.
I remember there was some talk a few years back regarding a theory about some people needing a certain threshold of taste to be met in order to feel satisfied, a boldness of it, if you will. This could explain why it would take more fruit to satiate that sweet tooth than it would take plain sugar for those of you who had the issue.
Just throwing out some guesses here trying to merge what I know from the science with your experiences to explain how you apparently are now both eating some sugar without issue.3 -
For the record ( not sure if you meant me or not, Em ) - I don't now eat sugar without an issue. I manage it, because I know that I cannot quit it completely. I simply have no overt consequences from my compulsive eating of refined sugary things. I eat a whole box of oatmeal cookies in one sitting, then don't do it again for a while. Mostly I eat a single serving of something when I'm out somewhere - but sometimes, Little Debbie.
Progress not perfection.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »LOL, I will add that I've done 1400 skydives. I'm the sugar addict, so of course.
Holy crap, 1400 skydives!! I would love to skydive, but I'm not sure I have the cahoonas.
ha, dis-inhibition is a blessing and a curse.0
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