Of refeeds and diet breaks
Replies
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I can highly recommend rooibos to any tea drinkers who are looking for something caffeine-free. I can't have caffeine after about mid morning if it's coffee, or early afternoon for tea (because I drink it weak - sorry Vintage!). Rooibos is close enough to black tea that I take it the same (with milk and sweetener), and can drink it in abundance right up until bed time. Generally also a hell of a lot cheaper than decaffeinated black teas.2
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Indeed, @Nony_Mouse. I agree with you about the 'Awesome' button but would also be happy to hug. I wasn't on the boards much over the holidays. I returned to this thread today to find another gem from @anubis609. Very informative and well expressed as usual, as well as a good mental kickoff to the new year for me. My diet break had been in the first half of November so the way it kind of worked out I dove directly from intentional diet break to the holidays. In effect I've been on a diet break for two months. Hopefully back in charge of things starting now.
ETA: I landed on 'Insightful' rather than 'Hug'.
Oh, and by the way @Nony_Mouse how's your eczema? I missed perhaps 40 pages of this thread.3 -
Eczema is actually really good atm, @HDBKLM
Cutting out all citrus (so the lemon juice on my dinner salad) seems to have helped further settle it, along with religious use of steroid creams and emollient. Hay fever has been kicking my butt, had a few really bad days with high winds, but that's at a manageable level currently too. We'll see what the next couple of days of high wind brings. May not be too bad because the accompanying rain will suppress the pollen. 3 -
I've also had an unintentional whoosh of 3 lbs putting me into my lightest post-holiday/beginning of the year weight in the past 7 years
Several reasons explain why: 1) I haven't consistently hit my assumed maintenance calories due to time constraint reasons; 2) my workouts coming back post-xmas food poisoning have been lighter in intensity, but higher in reps, so it turns out to be more metabolic conditioning (I hate the term "cardio," but basically it's the better version of cardio lol) than actual strength training; 3) I actually suck at maintenance after perma-cutting for so long, which plays into #1 (>ლ)
That said, I get to have a spike day (sure as hell isn't a refeed) into the first weekend of the new year lolwut? It's almost like if you eat more, your body burns more (crazy, right?).. maybe there should be a thread dedicated to that concept or something haha7 -
I, too, have whooshed off the remainder of the ovulation plus accidental overfeed (that food forced itself into my mouth!) weight, so it seems a deficit wasn't necessary after all. Just as well I only did two days of that, then the past two at TDEE due to lack of exercise and refusing to eat something paltry like 1400 cals (yeah, I'm getting soft!). Bodies are weird. I fully deserved to gain a pound.1
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alteredstates175 wrote: »Started at 203.5 - spiked up to 216 - settled in at 214 +/- 2. Calorie target was 2050. Got at least 100 grams of carbs most days. Was nice to eat more carbs for a few days.
Should I reset to my former calorie target (1550) ? Or a little higher? Any other tips for restarting a weight loss strategy?
Probably a good time to insert the new reminder for 2018...
Use your new settled weight as your baseline calculation for creating the deficit. Rough rmr baseline is going to be current bw x 10. Maintenance is around a multiplier of 14-15.
If you are active at all, the multiplier is anywhere between 11-13 to create your deficit.
If you are sedentary to the point of barely getting any extra movement, you can actually go down to an 8-9 multiplier, which is already considered aggressive, but if you're ~214, this translates to 1712kcal at the lowest (using 8 as a multiplier). Not sustainable long term.
The ideal is to eat as many calories as you can that allows for weight loss
The more aggressive the cut, the shorter the dieting period becomes. And the leaner you are, it becomes exponentially shorter. Protein becomes your absolute priority macro and should be more than you think. There's an inverse relationship with total energy and protein. More deficit = more protein needed.
If you're still way above a target bf%, say >25% for men, >30% bf for women, then your dieting period of anywhere between 6-12 weeks should include a couple of days at or around maintenance; eg: deficit day > deficit day > maintenance day > deficit > deficit > maintenance day > deficit day ... or however you choose to intersperse it. No refeeds necessary since you have more than enough stored energy to support a consistent deficit.
The less aggressive the cut (the ideal), the longer the dieting period can be done, with some going well into 16-24 weeks for severely overweight individuals, but no matter what, there's going to be a diet break happening at the end of the diet period just to give your body some time to adjust to its new lower body weight. If you need to do another stint of dieting, you choose your new deficit based on your new lower body weight.
After posting this, I weighed 209 this morning. Seems possible that even 2050 calories is a slight deficit, as your target ranges for rmr baseline would suggest. My bodyfat was measured at 27% (with calipers) about 5 weeks ago. Since I plateaued about that time, I don't think it has changed much. Don't see any noticeable changes. Will get another measurement in a month or so. Target weight was originally 175 - the high end of my "healthy" BMI range. I think that I will be fine at 180-185 and bodyfat should be less than 25% at that weight.
Taking your advice, I think I will raise calories to around 1900-2000 per day for the next 6 weeks. I will work on eating more protein - always my downfall. Will work in some days at a higher maintenance level also.
I have a vacation scheduled in 6 weeks and I will take another break there. Then work on a long, slow transition to maintenance.
@Nony_Mouse and @anubis609 - you are awesome! I appreciate your insights and advice. Thanks for your time.
3 -
alteredstates175 wrote: »alteredstates175 wrote: »Started at 203.5 - spiked up to 216 - settled in at 214 +/- 2. Calorie target was 2050. Got at least 100 grams of carbs most days. Was nice to eat more carbs for a few days.
Should I reset to my former calorie target (1550) ? Or a little higher? Any other tips for restarting a weight loss strategy?
Probably a good time to insert the new reminder for 2018...
Use your new settled weight as your baseline calculation for creating the deficit. Rough rmr baseline is going to be current bw x 10. Maintenance is around a multiplier of 14-15.
If you are active at all, the multiplier is anywhere between 11-13 to create your deficit.
If you are sedentary to the point of barely getting any extra movement, you can actually go down to an 8-9 multiplier, which is already considered aggressive, but if you're ~214, this translates to 1712kcal at the lowest (using 8 as a multiplier). Not sustainable long term.
The ideal is to eat as many calories as you can that allows for weight loss
The more aggressive the cut, the shorter the dieting period becomes. And the leaner you are, it becomes exponentially shorter. Protein becomes your absolute priority macro and should be more than you think. There's an inverse relationship with total energy and protein. More deficit = more protein needed.
If you're still way above a target bf%, say >25% for men, >30% bf for women, then your dieting period of anywhere between 6-12 weeks should include a couple of days at or around maintenance; eg: deficit day > deficit day > maintenance day > deficit > deficit > maintenance day > deficit day ... or however you choose to intersperse it. No refeeds necessary since you have more than enough stored energy to support a consistent deficit.
The less aggressive the cut (the ideal), the longer the dieting period can be done, with some going well into 16-24 weeks for severely overweight individuals, but no matter what, there's going to be a diet break happening at the end of the diet period just to give your body some time to adjust to its new lower body weight. If you need to do another stint of dieting, you choose your new deficit based on your new lower body weight.
After posting this, I weighed 209 this morning. Seems possible that even 2050 calories is a slight deficit, as your target ranges for rmr baseline would suggest. My bodyfat was measured at 27% (with calipers) about 5 weeks ago. Since I plateaued about that time, I don't think it has changed much. Don't see any noticeable changes. Will get another measurement in a month or so. Target weight was originally 175 - the high end of my "healthy" BMI range. I think that I will be fine at 180-185 and bodyfat should be less than 25% at that weight.
Taking your advice, I think I will raise calories to around 1900-2000 per day for the next 6 weeks. I will work on eating more protein - always my downfall. Will work in some days at a higher maintenance level also.
I have a vacation scheduled in 6 weeks and I will take another break there. Then work on a long, slow transition to maintenance.
@Nony_Mouse and @anubis609 - you are awesome! I appreciate your insights and advice. Thanks for your time.
2050 is absolutely a deficit. RMR shouldn't be considered maintenance. This is the minimal activity done when binge watching Netflix and getting up to go to the bathroom (I know @heybales has a better definition of it and can explain it much better). At 209 lbs, using the rough estimate multiplier for maintenance, yours would be between 2900-3100kcal (rounded to the nearest hundred), so let's call it 3000kcal per day, or 21,000kcal per week. Dropping it down to 2000kcal/day (14,000/wk) is a 33% deficit and would be considered aggressive.
Your body adapts to lower intake because that's what it does, and even if you maintained at 2000kcal, that's more likely your body creating an uptick in adaptation to regulate itself with that amount of incoming energy, but hormonal adaptation to create a homeostatic environment isn't the same as maintaining an energy balance that actually addresses hormonal and physiological response.
Though, since this coming dieting period is only going to be about 6 weeks long, it's relatively short and probably sustainable at that deficit, but again, you don't need to flatline at a pure 2000kcal/day everyday.. you can undulate some days at or close to maintenance just to pulse and give hormone signaling a break every so often. You want an average deficit, so if 21,000kcal keeps you around 209 lbs, anything less throughout the week is going to be considered a deficit.
As for protein, again, just to make it easy, the rough estimate is ~1g/lb of goal weight. If 180 is that goal weight, get about 180g of protein. I'm aware protein is also a self limiting macro since it promotes satiety and reduces hunger, so if you need to supplement, then go for it. If you were going by lbm, then getting 1g/lb/lbm puts you around 152g pro, given your last bf measurement of 27%.
At 2000kcal, protein contributes anywhere between 600-720kcal. You fill up the rest with whatever combination of carbs and fat gets you to 2000kcal.0 -
@anubis609, what do you think is a better protein equation for me to go by, now that I'm not at a deficit and supposedly doing gaintenance (I swear I'm getting back to strength training soon!!), 1g per lb of lbm, or 1g per lb of actual weight? More? Less?
Tightening up on spending due to impending vet bills, so no more ridiculous-sized protein shakes for me, but I want to know I'm not undercutting it. I had been doing 1g per lb of actual as minimum, and often going over that quite a bit (which I don't need to do, just my shakes are really good...)
https://youtu.be/pMe1SxIn1Po 1 -
IIRC you need less protein when maintaining and carbs are a good thing for muscle building. Hence why keto is effort to do a bulk/lift with.3
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Bahahaha, my Facebook 'memory' from three years ago:
"Day Two of healthiness:
Signed up to MyFitnessPal so I can track food and exercise (and stayed well within limits 'cept for a smidge over on fat)
Did 30 mins of yoga and a 5km walk
Still have a couple of glasses of water to go to get to my 2 litres
Yay me!!"
By 'well within limits' read: ridiculously under on cals (1100 gross), and a pathetic level of protein (52g). Clearly didn't have a damn clue what I was doing, even though I thought I did. Good thing I'm a quick study!
My breakfast was a bagel with cream cheese and soy bacon though, which I think is a stellar way to start any diet (and which I now also can't eat...).
Leaving for vet's in 10 minutes, please send us 'treatable' vibes.7 -
Sending all the vibes and positive thoughts! Hugs to both of you.1
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2050 is absolutely a deficit. RMR shouldn't be considered maintenance. This is the minimal activity done when binge watching Netflix and getting up to go to the bathroom (I know @heybales has a better definition of it and can explain it much better). At 209 lbs, using the rough estimate multiplier for maintenance, yours would be between 2900-3100kcal (rounded to the nearest hundred), so let's call it 3000kcal per day, or 21,000kcal per week. Dropping it down to 2000kcal/day (14,000/wk) is a 33% deficit and would be considered aggressive.
Your body adapts to lower intake because that's what it does, and even if you maintained at 2000kcal, that's more likely your body creating an uptick in adaptation to regulate itself with that amount of incoming energy, but hormonal adaptation to create a homeostatic environment isn't the same as maintaining an energy balance that actually addresses hormonal and physiological response.
Though, since this coming dieting period is only going to be about 6 weeks long, it's relatively short and probably sustainable at that deficit, but again, you don't need to flatline at a pure 2000kcal/day everyday.. you can undulate some days at or close to maintenance just to pulse and give hormone signaling a break every so often. You want an average deficit, so if 21,000kcal keeps you around 209 lbs, anything less throughout the week is going to be considered a deficit.
As for protein, again, just to make it easy, the rough estimate is ~1g/lb of goal weight. If 180 is that goal weight, get about 180g of protein. I'm aware protein is also a self limiting macro since it promotes satiety and reduces hunger, so if you need to supplement, then go for it. If you were going by lbm, then getting 1g/lb/lbm puts you around 152g pro, given your last bf measurement of 27%.
At 2000kcal, protein contributes anywhere between 600-720kcal. You fill up the rest with whatever combination of carbs and fat gets you to 2000kcal.
Doing the math - 11 x 209 is 2299 - and that is still the high end of a deficit. I don't think I would feel restricted in the least at 2300 calories. Seems really high and that I would be gaining weight at that level. One thing to do - try it and see what happens. My calorie levels fluctuate some from day to day, so increasing to maintenance some days will fit right in with a little planning. Maintenance at 14 is 2926. I will try to stay between those targets for 6 weeks and see what happens.
(Side note: Saw my doctor last week. Blood pressure is down and I was asking him about stopping the drug I have been taking. We also discussed my weight loss and he asked about my calorie intake. I told him what I was doing and he said "You should be able to eat 2000 calories per day and lose weight." Mentally, I scoffed at that, but that falls in line with your recommended levels.)
Thank you.
1 -
Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!2 -
Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!
Being stalked by an app is creepy! I picture it hanging out by the lamppost in front of your home, holding a newspaper up to it's screen to avoid recognition, following you as you go about your daily steps...5 -
alteredstates175 wrote: »@nexangelus - My condolences regarding Shadow. Never easy losing a pet.
Been on a diet break for fifteen days. Ending it tomorrow. Thanks to everyone who provided advice and insights into this process.
Started at 203.5 - spiked up to 216 - settled in at 214 +/- 2. Calorie target was 2050. Got at least 100 grams of carbs most days. Was nice to eat more carbs for a few days.
Should I reset to my former calorie target (1550) ? Or a little higher? Any other tips for restarting a weight loss strategy?
Probably a good time to insert the new reminder for 2018...
Use your new settled weight as your baseline calculation for creating the deficit. Rough rmr baseline is going to be current bw x 10. Maintenance is around a multiplier of 14-15.
If you are active at all, the multiplier is anywhere between 11-13 to create your deficit.
If you are sedentary to the point of barely getting any extra movement, you can actually go down to an 8-9 multiplier, which is already considered aggressive, but if you're ~214, this translates to 1712kcal at the lowest (using 8 as a multiplier). Not sustainable long term.
The ideal is to eat as many calories as you can that allows for weight loss
The more aggressive the cut, the shorter the dieting period becomes. And the leaner you are, it becomes exponentially shorter. Protein becomes your absolute priority macro and should be more than you think. There's an inverse relationship with total energy and protein. More deficit = more protein needed.
If you're still way above a target bf%, say >25% for men, >30% bf for women, then your dieting period of anywhere between 6-12 weeks should include a couple of days at or around maintenance; eg: deficit day > deficit day > maintenance day > deficit > deficit > maintenance day > deficit day ... or however you choose to intersperse it. No refeeds necessary since you have more than enough stored energy to support a consistent deficit.
The less aggressive the cut (the ideal), the longer the dieting period can be done, with some going well into 16-24 weeks for severely overweight individuals, but no matter what, there's going to be a diet break happening at the end of the diet period just to give your body some time to adjust to its new lower body weight. If you need to do another stint of dieting, you choose your new deficit based on your new lower body weight.
-REMINDER INSERT-
I don't think I can stress enough that maintenance, deficits, and surpluses are going to be determined at the body weight you are currently at the time of planning, meaning it's never a static number. Refer to the revised opening post.
Choose a dieting strategy that works for you and stick to it for the duration of the dieting period. If at any time during the dieting period you feel like you are dragging *kitten* through a pile of *kitten*, then end the diet and take the break and reassess what went wrong then readjust for the next round of dieting. Fat loss is a LONG game. And permanent fat loss is LOOONG.. like life long, so unless you're planning to die in the next few years, don't rush it and don't white knuckle your way through extreme methods.
The caveat is there will always be a period of suck when dieting; i.e. some hunger, some reduced energy status, etc. but that is completely normal. It's when the period of suck becomes a period of "wtf am I even doing I hate everyone's unborn children" is when it's too far.
Your job is to mitigate as much suck as possible by creating an average long term deficit, so if including some maintenance days every so often helps you achieve a weekly deficit, you're good.
---
And I'll supplement this with a timely email I just received from my international spirit manimal, Aadam Ali:
A lot of this has to do with a thing called the set point theory.
The set point theory of bodyweight regulation says that we all come with an inherent 'set point'. And when we get too far away from our personal set point –whether this be through weight loss or weight gain – the body will do everything it can to get us back to normal. You see the set point theory in action when people lose huge amounts of fat and gain it back shortly after. But, it isn't all doom and gloom because...
There's this other thing called the settling point.
The settling point is a counter-theory to the set point theory and says that you can change your set point if you change your behaviours and environment. And it's something I've seen in clients and even experienced myself. It's also the reason why I'm now able to maintain above-average levels of body fat year 'round without suffering.
And no, this isn't where I cut off the post and say, "FIND OUT MY LIFE-LONG EFFORTLESS SIX PACK SECRETS FOR 6 MONTHLY INSTALMENTS OF JUST 666 CASH MONIES!" There isn't a secret – surprise. And if there were it most definitely would not be effortless. And it would also require years of consistency and patience.
Because the body you want is a long game.
I speak to people all the time about their goals and the one recurring theme is people wanting to lose fat and maintain a lean physique year 'round, forever. And while it's an ardent belief of mine that most people can achieve this goal – it's not going to happen as quickly as people want it to. Meaning: it's probably going to take years.
For a few reasons.
1. Muscle growth takes time: The more muscle you have on your frame, the better you're going to look, but also, the leaner you will look at the same body fat %. This means you won't have to diet as hard and eventually you may not need to diet at all.
2. Habits take time: In the opening sequence of the Netflix series, Ozark, the protagonist says: "Money is, at its essence, that measure of a man's choices." And it's no different for your physique – you don't have the body you want right now because your choices aren't in alignment with your goal. And, over time, these choices have become ingrained as bad habits.
People who have lost weight and managed to keep it off exhibit certain habits –amongst these, consistent exercise; calorie-control and tracking; and setting up their environment for success.
Changing your habits takes time, and the only way to change them is to start changing the choices you make.
3. Slow and steady fat loss: While strategic 'crash diets' can work, they won't work for most people because they don't allow for you to learn and ingrain the habits you need to maintain the loss in the long run.
Now, this is anecdote (and I'd argue experience having worked with hundreds of different people, and by extension, hundreds of different bodies), but a 'phasic' approach to dieting seems to work excellently for helping people acclimate to a new level of body fat. I've written about the approach in detail here, but here's a TL;DR:
- Lose a certain amount of fat and then stop dieting and maintain your new lower weight and body fat % for a certain period of time. Once you're comfortable, resume dieting to lose more fat. Repeat this process as many times as needed until you hit your goal.
People don't want to hear talk of 'slow and steady' because we're living in a culture of instant gratification and "I want it now". But your body doesn't care about what you want and the more you try to rush fat loss, the harder it will become.
4. Because life: Chances are that if you're reading this you're not a bodybuilder, meaning – you can't, or don't want to, make this fitness thing you're life.
Which means that life will happen. You'll fall off track here and there, you may not go to the gym for a few weeks, your diet will go out the window as life stress increases. This is absolutely fine and to be expected. But what it also means is that your goal is going to take just that longer to achieve.
5. Consistency, consistency, consistency > intensity: I'm going to end on this point because I believe it to be the most important.
I've been training for more than a decade and in that time frame I can count the numbers of days I've taken off on one hand (not including injuries or sickness). Has every training session been perfect? No. Has my diet been spot on every day? No. But the biggest differentiator, despite things not being perfect, was that I kept going – day after day; week after week; month after month; and year after year.
Everything counts. And everything adds up. Aim for consistency over intensity (or perfection).
(Hahaha, saw that email from Physiqonomics the other day and thought of you.)
"Like" just doesn't cut it.
Quoting for the awesome.
And I'm going to cut and paste so it can get quoted and seen again.
By @anubis609 :
Been on a diet break for fifteen days. Ending it tomorrow. Thanks to everyone who provided advice and insights into this process.
Started at 203.5 - spiked up to 216 - settled in at 214 +/- 2. Calorie target was 2050. Got at least 100 grams of carbs most days. Was nice to eat more carbs for a few days.
Should I reset to my former calorie target (1550) ? Or a little higher? Any other tips for restarting a weight loss strategy? [/quote]
Probably a good time to insert the new reminder for 2018...
Use your new settled weight as your baseline calculation for creating the deficit. Rough rmr baseline is going to be current bw x 10. Maintenance is around a multiplier of 14-15.
If you are active at all, the multiplier is anywhere between 11-13 to create your deficit.
If you are sedentary to the point of barely getting any extra movement, you can actually go down to an 8-9 multiplier, which is already considered aggressive, but if you're ~214, this translates to 1712kcal at the lowest (using 8 as a multiplier). Not sustainable long term.
The ideal is to eat as many calories as you can that allows for weight loss
The more aggressive the cut, the shorter the dieting period becomes. And the leaner you are, it becomes exponentially shorter. Protein becomes your absolute priority macro and should be more than you think. There's an inverse relationship with total energy and protein. More deficit = more protein needed.
If you're still way above a target bf%, say >25% for men, >30% bf for women, then your dieting period of anywhere between 6-12 weeks should include a couple of days at or around maintenance; eg: deficit day > deficit day > maintenance day > deficit > deficit > maintenance day > deficit day ... or however you choose to intersperse it. No refeeds necessary since you have more than enough stored energy to support a consistent deficit.
The less aggressive the cut (the ideal), the longer the dieting period can be done, with some going well into 16-24 weeks for severely overweight individuals, but no matter what, there's going to be a diet break happening at the end of the diet period just to give your body some time to adjust to its new lower body weight. If you need to do another stint of dieting, you choose your new deficit based on your new lower body weight.
-REMINDER INSERT-
I don't think I can stress enough that maintenance, deficits, and surpluses are going to be determined at the body weight you are currently at the time of planning, meaning it's never a static number. Refer to the revised opening post.
Choose a dieting strategy that works for you and stick to it for the duration of the dieting period. If at any time during the dieting period you feel like you are dragging *kitten* through a pile of *kitten*, then end the diet and take the break and reassess what went wrong then readjust for the next round of dieting. Fat loss is a LONG game. And permanent fat loss is LOOONG.. like life long, so unless you're planning to die in the next few years, don't rush it and don't white knuckle your way through extreme methods.
The caveat is there will always be a period of suck when dieting; i.e. some hunger, some reduced energy status, etc. but that is completely normal. It's when the period of suck becomes a period of "wtf am I even doing I hate everyone's unborn children" is when it's too far.
Your job is to mitigate as much suck as possible by creating an average long term deficit, so if including some maintenance days every so often helps you achieve a weekly deficit, you're good.
---
And I'll supplement this with a timely email I just received from my international spirit manimal, Aadam Ali:
A lot of this has to do with a thing called the set point theory.
The set point theory of bodyweight regulation says that we all come with an inherent 'set point'. And when we get too far away from our personal set point –whether this be through weight loss or weight gain – the body will do everything it can to get us back to normal. You see the set point theory in action when people lose huge amounts of fat and gain it back shortly after. But, it isn't all doom and gloom because...
There's this other thing called the settling point.
The settling point is a counter-theory to the set point theory and says that you can change your set point if you change your behaviours and environment. And it's something I've seen in clients and even experienced myself. It's also the reason why I'm now able to maintain above-average levels of body fat year 'round without suffering.
And no, this isn't where I cut off the post and say, "FIND OUT MY LIFE-LONG EFFORTLESS SIX PACK SECRETS FOR 6 MONTHLY INSTALMENTS OF JUST 666 CASH MONIES!" There isn't a secret – surprise. And if there were it most definitely would not be effortless. And it would also require years of consistency and patience.
Because the body you want is a long game.
I speak to people all the time about their goals and the one recurring theme is people wanting to lose fat and maintain a lean physique year 'round, forever. And while it's an ardent belief of mine that most people can achieve this goal – it's not going to happen as quickly as people want it to. Meaning: it's probably going to take years.
For a few reasons.
1. Muscle growth takes time: The more muscle you have on your frame, the better you're going to look, but also, the leaner you will look at the same body fat %. This means you won't have to diet as hard and eventually you may not need to diet at all.
2. Habits take time: In the opening sequence of the Netflix series, Ozark, the protagonist says: "Money is, at its essence, that measure of a man's choices." And it's no different for your physique – you don't have the body you want right now because your choices aren't in alignment with your goal. And, over time, these choices have become ingrained as bad habits.
People who have lost weight and managed to keep it off exhibit certain habits –amongst these, consistent exercise; calorie-control and tracking; and setting up their environment for success.
Changing your habits takes time, and the only way to change them is to start changing the choices you make.
3. Slow and steady fat loss: While strategic 'crash diets' can work, they won't work for most people because they don't allow for you to learn and ingrain the habits you need to maintain the loss in the long run.
Now, this is anecdote (and I'd argue experience having worked with hundreds of different people, and by extension, hundreds of different bodies), but a 'phasic' approach to dieting seems to work excellently for helping people acclimate to a new level of body fat. I've written about the approach in detail here, but here's a TL;DR:
- Lose a certain amount of fat and then stop dieting and maintain your new lower weight and body fat % for a certain period of time. Once you're comfortable, resume dieting to lose more fat. Repeat this process as many times as needed until you hit your goal.
People don't want to hear talk of 'slow and steady' because we're living in a culture of instant gratification and "I want it now". But your body doesn't care about what you want and the more you try to rush fat loss, the harder it will become.
4. Because life: Chances are that if you're reading this you're not a bodybuilder, meaning – you can't, or don't want to, make this fitness thing you're life.
Which means that life will happen. You'll fall off track here and there, you may not go to the gym for a few weeks, your diet will go out the window as life stress increases. This is absolutely fine and to be expected. But what it also means is that your goal is going to take just that longer to achieve.
5. Consistency, consistency, consistency > intensity: I'm going to end on this point because I believe it to be the most important.
I've been training for more than a decade and in that time frame I can count the numbers of days I've taken off on one hand (not including injuries or sickness). Has every training session been perfect? No. Has my diet been spot on every day? No. But the biggest differentiator, despite things not being perfect, was that I kept going – day after day; week after week; month after month; and year after year.
Everything counts. And everything adds up. Aim for consistency over intensity (or perfection).
END QUOTE from @anubis6091 -
Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!
Being stalked by an app is creepy! I picture it hanging out by the lamppost in front of your home, holding a newspaper up to it's screen to avoid recognition, following you as you go about your daily steps...
Yeah, and it's talking crap to my friends and making me look bad!
2 -
Another little whoosh of .75lbs this morning. I will reverse that today because I am med hungover on top of sleep deprived because I'm ordering Japanese. But med was necessary because I'd be even more sleep deprived at this point without it and I do not need to teeter on the brink of crisis because my brain shuts down from no sleep.
Maintaining deficit quite nicely this week (and will with food today too, I am a master at ordering from that place within my goals now!). Still not working out because I don't know about you but 5 hours, or like yesterday 1 hour, of sleep is just not enough to then get my sweat on. Taking care of the head first then the body can follow.3 -
Getting bored with my flu, but at least it seems to be clearing up. Now back down to my lowest weight just pre diet break after a whole 3 days of deficit. A+ would eat those things again
2 -
I was going to throw in regarding the comments on perhaps 500 being too big a deficit, or maybe not.
Nothing says you must have a daily deficit of certain amount, merely makes the math easier of course.
But sometimes different methods work better.
And of course if eating the same amount daily, but activity level changes - the deficit is different each day already.
But there are other methods to get an overall deficit.
Like the 5:2 method (if you have 2 inactive days weekly not in a row) allows a 22% overall deficit.
And you don't need the diet refeeds or breaks basically because of the amount of time eating at maintenance each week.
While it may not be a lifestyle change for most, some do keep it going in maintenance, merely allowing going well over maintenance on the weekend to be balanced by the 2 days at some point.
There is also the method of doing 500 deficit daily for 1 week, next week at maintenance, giving that overall 250 deficit, again not needing refeed/break time.
Many ways to skin a ....... oh no way am I going to say that here!8 -
I finally got my bathroom scale battery replaced so I could weigh in and have a new year/start of pregnancy weight. For those who need a refresher of my details (I'm sure you've all committed them to memory, of course)
Pre-diet break in November 186lbs
Post-diet break after two weeks maintenance 188 lbs
Pre-diet break in December 184lbs
January 2 186 lbs
This mornings weight 184.8 lbs
I've been trying to eat at maintenance, but the first trimester queasies have set in, so it's a bit of a struggle. I'm 5'7, so I definitely have some extra fat to spare. My goal is to gain only about 20 lbs with this pregnancy, so tracking is my friend. I'm already doing better than my first pregnancy.9 -
Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!
Being stalked by an app is creepy! I picture it hanging out by the lamppost in front of your home, holding a newspaper up to it's screen to avoid recognition, following you as you go about your daily steps...
Yeah, and it's talking crap to my friends and making me look bad!
Perhaps someone dug it out of the trash and is using it? Weird 3 -
Hey, I had a 2.5 lb whoosh this morning and I'm back at my pre-break weight!! I never whoosh like that! I was OK with taking the 2 lb gain over the holidays thinking I was eating at maintenance on non-cookie-binge days, but clearly I have a lot more to learn about
1. How many calories I'm eating during the binges (probably way fewer than I'm estimating)
2. Maintenance calories for my activity level (probably a significant number more than I'm calculating). This one is especially intriguing because I'm small, old and sedentary outside of deliberate exercise.Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!
@Orphia, did you disconnect the fitbit from the app before you deleted it? If not, that may be the problem - I agree with Kimny that someone may have picked it up and is using it. Maybe try re-installing the app just to do the disconnect if you haven't already done it?2 -
I have whooshed some more too, past my pre accidental overfeed weight. Could be the stress of the past week, could be the late luteal thing again, could be just because.
It's mega windy here today, I'm seriously contemplating skipping my usual Saturday trip along to the wee market at the park to save myself the half hour of pollen exposure. I could drive, and combine it with a trip to the supermarket for the couple of things I need there so I don't feel so bad about driving 1 fricking kilometre.3 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »@anubis609, what do you think is a better protein equation for me to go by, now that I'm not at a deficit and supposedly doing gaintenance (I swear I'm getting back to strength training soon!!), 1g per lb of lbm, or 1g per lb of actual weight? More? Less?
Tightening up on spending due to impending vet bills, so no more ridiculous-sized protein shakes for me, but I want to know I'm not undercutting it. I had been doing 1g per lb of actual as minimum, and often going over that quite a bit (which I don't need to do, just my shakes are really good...)https://youtu.be/pMe1SxIn1Po
+100 for the milkshake rendition
If not in a deficit, you can get away with 0.7-0.8g/lb/lbm if carbs are high enough as @VintageFeline mentioned. The underlying reason being that the hierarchy of substrate oxidation is always in place: alcohol > carbs > protein > fat (protein/amino acids actually always get broken down before carbs, but a sufficient intake of protein prevents catabolism or at least slows it down), so following that rule, if there are enough carbs, it displaces the priority on oxidizing protein (and if absolutely high will shut off lipolysis), therefore not as much protein (contextually significant) needs to be taken in on a higher carb diet.
Carbs are anabolic in the sense that they stimulate insulin to direct substrate into muscle as opposed to shuttling them into fat, so long as there's sufficient stimulus to the muscles. Carbs also provide fuel for long duration or high intensity workouts.
Protein is also insulinogenic, but it's about half the response of carbs, so for anabolism it *can* work, but if you can stimulate insulin without the need to bombard your digestion with a 6 oz steak, then carbs as an insulinogenic fuel source are much better.
But that's also why cyclical and targeted ketogenic diets exist, to act as a way around the inherent problem of muscle building in standard keto. Even taking 10-15g of dextrose or glucose tabs prior to an intense lifting session is more than enough to trigger an insulin response while being low carb. As an advantage of keto, the body becomes insulin sensitive so even that little spike in glucose will trigger a faster insulin response compared to a mildly insulin resistant individual.
And just because I have the urge need to be complete, insulin resistance in this case is referring to elevated basal fasting insulin where fat cells become insulin resistant, leaving fatty acids and glucose to be stored in other tissues that weren't meant to store them long term. The advantage to being insulin resistant is that you absolutely can lose fat faster since they won't take in anymore substrate; conversely, being super insulin sensitive means you can easily store more fat. So there's a bit of a balance that should be taking place.
Being metabolically flexible allows the body to be in an insulin resistant state (during exercise) to increase lipolysis and fuel muscle, where in other times of the day, you're insulin sensitive enough to not damage other organs when you're in an energy surplus. Switching between glucose and fatty acid substrate oxidation at appropriate times.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »@anubis609, what do you think is a better protein equation for me to go by, now that I'm not at a deficit and supposedly doing gaintenance (I swear I'm getting back to strength training soon!!), 1g per lb of lbm, or 1g per lb of actual weight? More? Less?
Tightening up on spending due to impending vet bills, so no more ridiculous-sized protein shakes for me, but I want to know I'm not undercutting it. I had been doing 1g per lb of actual as minimum, and often going over that quite a bit (which I don't need to do, just my shakes are really good...)https://youtu.be/pMe1SxIn1Po
+100 for the milkshake rendition
If not in a deficit, you can get away with 0.7-0.8g/lb/lbm if carbs are high enough as @VintageFeline mentioned. The underlying reason being that the hierarchy of substrate oxidation is always in place: alcohol > carbs > protein > fat (protein/amino acids actually always get broken down before carbs, but a sufficient intake of protein prevents catabolism or at least slows it down), so following that rule, if there are enough carbs, it displaces the priority on oxidizing protein (and if absolutely high will shut off lipolysis), therefore not as much protein (contextually significant) needs to be taken in on a higher carb diet.
Carbs are anabolic in the sense that they stimulate insulin to direct substrate into muscle as opposed to shuttling them into fat, so long as there's sufficient stimulus to the muscles. Carbs also provide fuel for long duration or high intensity workouts.
Protein is also insulinogenic, but it's about half the response of carbs, so for anabolism it *can* work, but if you can stimulate insulin without the need to bombard your digestion with a 6 oz steak, then carbs as an insulinogenic fuel source are much better.
But that's also why cyclical and targeted ketogenic diets exist, to act as a way around the inherent problem of muscle building in standard keto. Even taking 10-15g of dextrose or glucose tabs prior to an intense lifting session is more than enough to trigger an insulin response while being low carb. As an advantage of keto, the body becomes insulin sensitive so even that little spike in glucose will trigger a faster insulin response compared to a mildly insulin resistant individual.
And just because I have the urge need to be complete, insulin resistance in this case is referring to elevated basal fasting insulin where fat cells become insulin resistant, leaving fatty acids and glucose to be stored in other tissues that weren't meant to store them long term. The advantage to being insulin resistant is that you absolutely can lose fat faster since they won't take in anymore substrate; conversely, being super insulin sensitive means you can easily store more fat. So there's a bit of a balance that should be taking place.
Being metabolically flexible allows the body to be in an insulin resistant state (during exercise) to increase lipolysis and fuel muscle, where in other times of the day, you're insulin sensitive enough to not damage other organs when you're in an energy surplus. Switching between glucose and fatty acid substrate oxidation at appropriate times.
Okay, I'm all good then. Will just leave it at its current setting but not stress if it's under.
Milkshake rendition is from Riverdale, which if you haven't watched, you should. Awesome teen drama, with the added bonus of former teen idols of screens big and small in parental roles (that doesn't make me feel old, not one bit!).1 -
alteredstates175 wrote: »2050 is absolutely a deficit. RMR shouldn't be considered maintenance. This is the minimal activity done when binge watching Netflix and getting up to go to the bathroom (I know @heybales has a better definition of it and can explain it much better). At 209 lbs, using the rough estimate multiplier for maintenance, yours would be between 2900-3100kcal (rounded to the nearest hundred), so let's call it 3000kcal per day, or 21,000kcal per week. Dropping it down to 2000kcal/day (14,000/wk) is a 33% deficit and would be considered aggressive.
Your body adapts to lower intake because that's what it does, and even if you maintained at 2000kcal, that's more likely your body creating an uptick in adaptation to regulate itself with that amount of incoming energy, but hormonal adaptation to create a homeostatic environment isn't the same as maintaining an energy balance that actually addresses hormonal and physiological response.
Though, since this coming dieting period is only going to be about 6 weeks long, it's relatively short and probably sustainable at that deficit, but again, you don't need to flatline at a pure 2000kcal/day everyday.. you can undulate some days at or close to maintenance just to pulse and give hormone signaling a break every so often. You want an average deficit, so if 21,000kcal keeps you around 209 lbs, anything less throughout the week is going to be considered a deficit.
As for protein, again, just to make it easy, the rough estimate is ~1g/lb of goal weight. If 180 is that goal weight, get about 180g of protein. I'm aware protein is also a self limiting macro since it promotes satiety and reduces hunger, so if you need to supplement, then go for it. If you were going by lbm, then getting 1g/lb/lbm puts you around 152g pro, given your last bf measurement of 27%.
At 2000kcal, protein contributes anywhere between 600-720kcal. You fill up the rest with whatever combination of carbs and fat gets you to 2000kcal.
Doing the math - 11 x 209 is 2299 - and that is still the high end of a deficit. I don't think I would feel restricted in the least at 2300 calories. Seems really high and that I would be gaining weight at that level. One thing to do - try it and see what happens. My calorie levels fluctuate some from day to day, so increasing to maintenance some days will fit right in with a little planning. Maintenance at 14 is 2926. I will try to stay between those targets for 6 weeks and see what happens.
(Side note: Saw my doctor last week. Blood pressure is down and I was asking him about stopping the drug I have been taking. We also discussed my weight loss and he asked about my calorie intake. I told him what I was doing and he said "You should be able to eat 2000 calories per day and lose weight." Mentally, I scoffed at that, but that falls in line with your recommended levels.)
Thank you.
209x11 is the lower end of activity to create the deficit with 209x13 being on the higher end of an active deficit. I should also mention again, being in a low carb/glycogen depleted state is going to fall on the lower end of the spectrum for scale weight (and to a degree body fat percentage) maintenance, so depending on your carb intake, you may very well have a lower maintenance range. As an example, since I'm anywhere between very low and moderate carb, my maintenance multiplier is x14 as opposed to the usual x15 that most active males who take in more carbs get to use.
But your doctor would be correct in his assertion that eating 2000kcal/day would result in weight loss. As a hat tip to @heybales comment, anything less than maintenance in a long average is definitively a deficit, and it's not going to be a static number given daily weight fluctuations/energy exertion/life in general.1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »@anubis609, what do you think is a better protein equation for me to go by, now that I'm not at a deficit and supposedly doing gaintenance (I swear I'm getting back to strength training soon!!), 1g per lb of lbm, or 1g per lb of actual weight? More? Less?
Tightening up on spending due to impending vet bills, so no more ridiculous-sized protein shakes for me, but I want to know I'm not undercutting it. I had been doing 1g per lb of actual as minimum, and often going over that quite a bit (which I don't need to do, just my shakes are really good...)https://youtu.be/pMe1SxIn1Po
+100 for the milkshake rendition
If not in a deficit, you can get away with 0.7-0.8g/lb/lbm if carbs are high enough as @VintageFeline mentioned. The underlying reason being that the hierarchy of substrate oxidation is always in place: alcohol > carbs > protein > fat (protein/amino acids actually always get broken down before carbs, but a sufficient intake of protein prevents catabolism or at least slows it down), so following that rule, if there are enough carbs, it displaces the priority on oxidizing protein (and if absolutely high will shut off lipolysis), therefore not as much protein (contextually significant) needs to be taken in on a higher carb diet.
Carbs are anabolic in the sense that they stimulate insulin to direct substrate into muscle as opposed to shuttling them into fat, so long as there's sufficient stimulus to the muscles. Carbs also provide fuel for long duration or high intensity workouts.
Protein is also insulinogenic, but it's about half the response of carbs, so for anabolism it *can* work, but if you can stimulate insulin without the need to bombard your digestion with a 6 oz steak, then carbs as an insulinogenic fuel source are much better.
But that's also why cyclical and targeted ketogenic diets exist, to act as a way around the inherent problem of muscle building in standard keto. Even taking 10-15g of dextrose or glucose tabs prior to an intense lifting session is more than enough to trigger an insulin response while being low carb. As an advantage of keto, the body becomes insulin sensitive so even that little spike in glucose will trigger a faster insulin response compared to a mildly insulin resistant individual.
And just because I have the urge need to be complete, insulin resistance in this case is referring to elevated basal fasting insulin where fat cells become insulin resistant, leaving fatty acids and glucose to be stored in other tissues that weren't meant to store them long term. The advantage to being insulin resistant is that you absolutely can lose fat faster since they won't take in anymore substrate; conversely, being super insulin sensitive means you can easily store more fat. So there's a bit of a balance that should be taking place.
Being metabolically flexible allows the body to be in an insulin resistant state (during exercise) to increase lipolysis and fuel muscle, where in other times of the day, you're insulin sensitive enough to not damage other organs when you're in an energy surplus. Switching between glucose and fatty acid substrate oxidation at appropriate times.
Okay, I'm all good then. Will just leave it at its current setting but not stress if it's under.
Milkshake rendition is from Riverdale, which if you haven't watched, you should. Awesome teen drama, with the added bonus of former teen idols of screens big and small in parental roles (that doesn't make me feel old, not one bit!).
Will file under "guilty pleasure" shows to watch then! Lol.Been meaning to somehow say (just in case any of you guys who are my friends on Fitbit might have wondered), I stopped using Fitbit a year ago.
Yet somehow it gets SOME of my steps from somewhere (it sends me useless weekly email reports). I average around 18,000 steps a day.
I no longer have the Fitbit app on my phone. I don't even own a Fitbit anymore. I've disconnected Fitbit from MFP, Strava, and Apple Health.
I have no idea where else it's getting some of my steps from. It's got me in its claws!
@Orphia is it possible that you still carry your phone around with you while you walk around and do stuff? Before I start speaking like I know wtf I'm talking about, my thought is that even deleting the app from your phone and disconnecting the pairing of Fitbit from Apple Health, there might be some stored cached data being sent. I guess you could completely try to wipe yourself from Fitbit's database by deleting your actual Fitbit account from their site. Or another thought is if you paired your fitbit account with your FB account, there might be some backdoor logging?
Whether it's actually possible or not, it sounds like it could be a thing in my head. You know, just to feed the conspiracy theory that big brother is always watching and you're never truly alone.
3 -
So my new low of 123.5 popped back up to 125.0 today lol. Still happy because I went off the rails a little more than intended but it seems my activity and eating kind of evened out over the month. And 125 is still on the low side of my normal range.
@Psychgrrl Cable tv is my enabler too! I know people who complain that they have 200 channels and there's never anything on and I'm like, how picky are you? I could do nothing but watch for days, I'm so lazy. But I could do just as much damage with Netflix, so it's my Fitbit that saves me. It buzzes if I don't get 250 steps by 10 to the hour, thank goodness.
It has been ridiculously cold here and I haven't been able to chase the chill out of my bones for weeks. I wonder if that increased my metabolism a little and helped nudge the scale number
@kimny72 I'm partial to crime dramas and things that are free. So when "Blue Bloods" came on Amazon Prime, I jumped on it. Still missing the most recent season, but I don't care about watching current stuff that much. The only currently airing shows I watch are "The Walking Dead," "The Goldbergs," "Modern Family," and "Major Crimes." Catching up on "Bones" but by bit (just started Season 5) and "Covert Affairs (just started season 4)--both have been off the air for a few years. ***shrug***
My fitness tracker nudges me similarly. Even if I've been standing at my desk. My staff thinks it's amusing when I make us all get up and walk around the conference room table until the "person" turns from red to happy green again.
I am completely blessed to live in Southern California. This is my reward for 40 years of weather purgatory (Michigan, upstate NY, Colorado, Oklahoma). So, I have no excuse not to get outside. Even in "winter." Even when it's raining, it's fine. I went to leave the gym once and when I got to the doors everyone was crowded around. I thought there'd been a car accident or something outside. Nope. It was raining. Just ... raining. I started to go outside an was asked, "OMG--you're not actually going outside in this are you?" Hmmm ... Let me see ... No thunder, no lightening, no golf ball or larger-size hail, no tornadoes. Yep--I'm good to go! And out I went. I haven't worn my winter coat since I moved here. I keep it just in case I want to go to the snow. (HA! As if ...)
I remember the times of sleeping with heating pads, two kitties and so many blankets it's a wonder I/we didn't suffocate. And bundling up like the Michelin man just get to the ten feet from my door to my car, so fluffy from the layers I could barely fit behind the wheel at my regular setting (I'm short--moving the seat back any further means I can't reach the peddles--let's just say I was kinda serving as my own airbag.). And let's not forget plugging in the car engine so it doesn't freeze overnight. Good times. (NOT!)1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Yay for Hamilton!
Boo for cold. I'm with you, kimny. I cannot get warm to save my life. I am drinking so much tea and getting ridiculous step counts because I am desperately trying to keep warm. And it will be even colder this weekend. I can't bear to think about it. I know I'm in a warm house, but it still seeps in.
I moved from NY to VA last year, so of course we are having one of the coldest winters anyone can remember down here. Single digits every night. I actually ran out and bought some herbal tea because I usually drink regular tea and I think all the caffeine was starting to get to me. Just trying to keep my electric bill from bankrupting me at this point. At least I'm not in the blizzard. My hometown is in the process of getting a foot of snow with 40mph winds, grateful I'm missing that.
At least you're using electric and not oil for heat. My friends in CT and NH are going bankrupt.0 -
Warm hugs to all my freezing friends and a cool fan for Nony!
3
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