Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • Psychgrrl
    Psychgrrl Posts: 3,177 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Help, I'm doing everything right and can't lose weight!! :D

    Jks, obviously.

    Week one was a wash thanks to PMS and a hefty dose of IDGAF, undid my deficit and then some. Last week was much better though. It's true that the scale is being stubborn, but I'm sporting some impressive fluid retention. It'll move when it moves.

    Finally got back to strength training (there's one of the fluid retention culprits right there), and trying to be consistent with hitting step goal, though the weather isn't cooperating and I'm not quite back to 'screw you, rain, I'm doing this anyway' mode (I have industrial level wet weather gear ffs, rain is a poor excuse). I may or may not do a refeed next weekend, I'll be prepared for it, but if I don't get hit with hunger from massive hormonal swing with ovulation I'll probably press on with straight deficit.

    Finally sucked it up and logged my weight today. It ain't pretty (even accounting for fluid retention).

    Female hormones suck, don’t they? I remember one woman posting her weight-trending app graph and that sucker was so consistent it looked like an EKG. She spiked huge the same time every month. At least she knew what to expect. I’ve been lucky and haven’t experienced that kind of stuff (knock on wood, right?!).

    You know what to do and will get back on track soon enough. It’s not only about trusting the process, it’s about trusting yourself. Have as much faith in you as we do! :heart:
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    Psychgrrl wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Help, I'm doing everything right and can't lose weight!! :D

    Jks, obviously.

    Week one was a wash thanks to PMS and a hefty dose of IDGAF, undid my deficit and then some. Last week was much better though. It's true that the scale is being stubborn, but I'm sporting some impressive fluid retention. It'll move when it moves.

    Finally got back to strength training (there's one of the fluid retention culprits right there), and trying to be consistent with hitting step goal, though the weather isn't cooperating and I'm not quite back to 'screw you, rain, I'm doing this anyway' mode (I have industrial level wet weather gear ffs, rain is a poor excuse). I may or may not do a refeed next weekend, I'll be prepared for it, but if I don't get hit with hunger from massive hormonal swing with ovulation I'll probably press on with straight deficit.

    Finally sucked it up and logged my weight today. It ain't pretty (even accounting for fluid retention).

    Female hormones suck, don’t they? I remember one woman posting her weight-trending app graph and that sucker was so consistent it looked like an EKG. She spiked huge the same time every month. At least she knew what to expect. I’ve been lucky and haven’t experienced that kind of stuff (knock on wood, right?!).

    You know what to do and will get back on track soon enough. It’s not only about trusting the process, it’s about trusting yourself. Have as much faith in you as we do! :heart:

    Gawd, I posted that six weeks ago! And then did another four weeks of going in circles...one the bright side, I am a kg lighter, and finally feeling like my head is back in the game.
  • Psychgrrl
    Psychgrrl Posts: 3,177 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    I've got a question for those in the know on thyroid function:

    My primary care doctor was willing to order bloodwork this week, and she reviewed a lot of the hormones that dealt with my PCOS diagnosis and my old insulin resistance diagnosis because she wanted to see if losing the weight that I had lost had helped. She was also willing to order a free T3 test, t4 test, and a TSH for me.

    I'm looking at the results now, and wondering what they are telling me. I don't have a thyroid - it was removed in 2014 for cancer. My endo had kept me really low TSH for 3 years, and has been letting it raise since back in the spring as I'm in the lowest percentile for possible cancer re-occurrence. Despite having my TSH clear down to 0.01 at one point, I never showed any signs of being hyperthyroid at all, and still had some of the hypo symptoms.

    Back in March, the last TSH level I had from my endo was 0.5 and this is where she wanted it to stay, so my last medication adjustment was then; however, the result from yesterday, despite having no changes in my medication, shows 2.24 - meaning my TSH has gone up in the last 4 months even though my medication has stayed the same. I'm uncertain why my levels changed so drastically, but I had fasted for approximately 12 hours before this blood test - would that have affected that TSH that drastically?

    with a TSH at 2.24, my free T4 is showing at 1.02 which according to the test result, has a range of 0.7 to 1.25 - so my result is solidly in the middle to upper range of normal. My free T3, however, is sitting at 1.6, which according to the test results I have, has a normal range of 1.7 to 3.7 - meaning that while my free T4 seems to be fine, my free T3 is low.

    I'm definitely going to have these results forwarded to my endocrinologist, but I'd like to know exactly what I need to be discussing with her with results like this - just to have some kind of idea of what may be going on when I go into the office. I do wonder if my fasting (I was having sugar testing done too) has anything to do with these results, or if maybe we need to consider trying me on T3 supplementation too in addition to my synthroid.

    I work intently with my docs to go on How symptom free I am, not just the numbers. My TSH can vary by 2 points (always in the normal range by my lab’s standards) while my Free T4 is very stable. My Free T3 is not, and I supplement T3 as well. I feel much better since I started taking the T3. The studies I’ve read show very little impact on TSH through additional supplementation of T3, however, the majority patients reported an increased quality of life. If it’s a placebo effect, I’ll take it!

    If you’re only taking a T4, consider asking your doc about a T3. It’s very different than the T4. T3 is in and out and doesn’t take weeks to fully metabolize in your system like the T4. You will likely notice the impact in a few days. Your body should convert T4 into T3, but might be doing a crappy job.

    Also, if you’re on generic meds, can you find out if you’re on the same generic each time you refill? There are literally hundreds of T4s out there and most pharmacies stick whatever is cheapest. Which means you can get a different one each time. My old doc was convinced this was a problem for me. The medication is the same, but the colorings, fillings, coatings, and binders can differ. She wrote my prescription for the name brands and my TSH levels stabilized within six months. And they were varying a crazy amount the couple years before that. Like sometimes 18.0 variance—from -2.0 to 16.0 and every Wheeler in between every 8 weeks! Could it have been something else? Absolutely! But I felt so bad, I just wanted to feel better and didn’t care what “fixed” me.

    My current insurance company makes its own meds, so I get the same one every time now. Dunno, but I thought it might help.

    :heart:

  • Psychgrrl
    Psychgrrl Posts: 3,177 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Psychgrrl wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    Help, I'm doing everything right and can't lose weight!! :D

    Jks, obviously.

    Week one was a wash thanks to PMS and a hefty dose of IDGAF, undid my deficit and then some. Last week was much better though. It's true that the scale is being stubborn, but I'm sporting some impressive fluid retention. It'll move when it moves.

    Finally got back to strength training (there's one of the fluid retention culprits right there), and trying to be consistent with hitting step goal, though the weather isn't cooperating and I'm not quite back to 'screw you, rain, I'm doing this anyway' mode (I have industrial level wet weather gear ffs, rain is a poor excuse). I may or may not do a refeed next weekend, I'll be prepared for it, but if I don't get hit with hunger from massive hormonal swing with ovulation I'll probably press on with straight deficit.

    Finally sucked it up and logged my weight today. It ain't pretty (even accounting for fluid retention).

    Female hormones suck, don’t they? I remember one woman posting her weight-trending app graph and that sucker was so consistent it looked like an EKG. She spiked huge the same time every month. At least she knew what to expect. I’ve been lucky and haven’t experienced that kind of stuff (knock on wood, right?!).

    You know what to do and will get back on track soon enough. It’s not only about trusting the process, it’s about trusting yourself. Have as much faith in you as we do! :heart:

    Gawd, I posted that six weeks ago! And then did another four weeks of going in circles...one the bright side, I am a kg lighter, and finally feeling like my head is back in the game.

    And when you circle back, we’ll be here! Glad you’re feeling better! Isn’t it weird how time can fly? Feels like yesterday when you’re mired down, but when you clock the actual passage, WOW, a couple of months has gone by.
  • nexangelus
    nexangelus Posts: 2,081 Member
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    Oh, um, well....the cutting break has turned into another 2.4lb loss/whoosh...that was with upping the cals (and creatine to 10g on training days, 5g "rest" days) and obviously moving some heavy *kitten* weights around for a couple of hours...maybe the recomp is it?! My traps, mid upper back, glutes and forearms are stiff, I have bruises all over, felt almost total exhaustion on our max event lifts day Saturday, but I am stoked. Not so tired today, thank goodness!
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    Psychgrrl wrote: »

    I work intently with my docs to go on How symptom free I am, not just the numbers. My TSH can vary by 2 points (always in the normal range by my lab’s standards) while my Free T4 is very stable. My Free T3 is not, and I supplement T3 as well. I feel much better since I started taking the T3. The studies I’ve read show very little impact on TSH through additional supplementation of T3, however, the majority patients reported an increased quality of life. If it’s a placebo effect, I’ll take it!

    If you’re only taking a T4, consider asking your doc about a T3. It’s very different than the T4. T3 is in and out and doesn’t take weeks to fully metabolize in your system like the T4. You will likely notice the impact in a few days. Your body should convert T4 into T3, but might be doing a crappy job.

    Also, if you’re on generic meds, can you find out if you’re on the same generic each time you refill? There are literally hundreds of T4s out there and most pharmacies stick whatever is cheapest. Which means you can get a different one each time. My old doc was convinced this was a problem for me. The medication is the same, but the colorings, fillings, coatings, and binders can differ. She wrote my prescription for the name brands and my TSH levels stabilized within six months. And they were varying a crazy amount the couple years before that. Like sometimes 18.0 variance—from -2.0 to 16.0 and every Wheeler in between every 8 weeks! Could it have been something else? Absolutely! But I felt so bad, I just wanted to feel better and didn’t care what “fixed” me.

    My current insurance company makes its own meds, so I get the same one every time now. Dunno, but I thought it might help.

    :heart:

    I'm actually on name brand and have been for 2 years as I had an allergic reaction to the last batch of generic I took - hands swelled up so much I couldn't bend my fingers! Since we had no idea what was in whatever generic Walgreens had at the time, my doctor agreed to stick strictly to the name brand.

    I'm a little irritated at my endo, as it took forever to get her to comment on the increased TSH, and even then, she just said "sometimes it changes" and just told me to up my synthroid dose on Sundays to get the TSH back down to closer where she wants it to be. meanwhile, my own research led to me think that my problem was the time of day I was getting the bloodwork done. since you don't have to fast for TSH, I had always gotten it done late in the afternoons, after work. This last time, however, I had done around 11 AM in the morning. Apparently, if what I read is right, your TSH fluctuates through the day, but tends to fall as the day goes along, so its quite possible my TSH has actually been higher all along, but we were missing it because I was consistently getting my readings done in the evenings!

    I also switched, back in the spring, when I took my synthroid. I was taking it around lunch time to get it in between my metformin doses, but after talking my doctor into cutting my metformin dose in half, I went to taking the metformin of a morning and the synthroid at night. When discussing this with my PCP, she suggested perhaps taking the synthroid of a morning. She was quick to try to disuade me from the whole "the TSH is not the end all be all measurement for thyroid" (she was sticking to the traditional endocrinology viewpoint that TSH is the gold standard and all the rest aren't real helpful) though I still think there is some merit to the idea that just because your TSH and T4 levels are fine or high, doesn't mean your body is converting the T3 correctly.....Anyway, even my PCP agreed with me in wondering why my endo was resistant to putting me on a low does of T3.

    My endo just wanted me to up my T4 dose, but did agree to redo the bloodwork in 6 weeks, and if my TSH came down but my T3 didn't get up, she would then agree to put me on T3.

    meanwhile, I just about choked when I saw my part of the cost for that bloodwork - $900?!!!! Good grief! At least I'm meeting my deducible with it!

    I have been fighting exhaustion for a very long time, and my weight loss has been stalled since December. I looked back, and my last dosage change was actually october, not march, so I just couldn't understand why the TSH had risen so high. The problem I'm running into is that my doctor seems to think that as long as my TSH is where she wants it to be, I'm fine, and I can't get her to really listen when I tell her that I still feel crappy. At the same time, I've been dealing with some pretty bad bouts of depression, too, so I think my hypo symptoms of lethargy, no weight loss, and exhaustion are multifaceted. I finally relented and let my PCP put me on Welbutrin last week to see if that would help, and maybe in the meantime, I might be able to get my endo to agree to the T3 trial. so perhaps by November, I might be seeing a positive difference?

    I agree, though - even if it would just be a placebo affect, I'll take it! I wonder about that so far with the Wellbutrin - I have noticed this week that I'm not nearly as drowsy during the day and I'm not fighting falling asleep at my desk nearly as much as I was before. I'm not completely free of the foggy-headedness, and I still have a hard time focusing, but perhaps that will slowly change, too. My sleep hasn't changed, though, except for perhaps a slight increase toward insomnia, but that hasn't been bad enough to call my doctor over, yet. I haven't gotten the burst of energy my doctor claimed I would, and I haven't really noticed a decrease in my appetite yet, either, unfortunately. But at the same time, while I'm still consistently eating over calorie goal this week, I don't think I'm going over QUITE as bad as I was before, and I'm finding it a little easier to ignore the persistent push to eat, at least during the day, that I was fighting so much. At the very least, I'm have had periods of being absolutely ravenous this week, so perhaps the medication is helping a little on that front as well. Or perhaps its just a placebo effect and I'm just convincing myself its working. Though even if its just a placebo effect of mind over matter, if it gets me to feeling better and gets me back to losing weight, its worth it! I'd be much happier to get to the "you won't be interested in food" stage she claimed I would find, though!

  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    Psychgrrl wrote: »

    I work intently with my docs to go on How symptom free I am, not just the numbers. My TSH can vary by 2 points (always in the normal range by my lab’s standards) while my Free T4 is very stable. My Free T3 is not, and I supplement T3 as well. I feel much better since I started taking the T3. The studies I’ve read show very little impact on TSH through additional supplementation of T3, however, the majority patients reported an increased quality of life. If it’s a placebo effect, I’ll take it!

    If you’re only taking a T4, consider asking your doc about a T3. It’s very different than the T4. T3 is in and out and doesn’t take weeks to fully metabolize in your system like the T4. You will likely notice the impact in a few days. Your body should convert T4 into T3, but might be doing a crappy job.

    Also, if you’re on generic meds, can you find out if you’re on the same generic each time you refill? There are literally hundreds of T4s out there and most pharmacies stick whatever is cheapest. Which means you can get a different one each time. My old doc was convinced this was a problem for me. The medication is the same, but the colorings, fillings, coatings, and binders can differ. She wrote my prescription for the name brands and my TSH levels stabilized within six months. And they were varying a crazy amount the couple years before that. Like sometimes 18.0 variance—from -2.0 to 16.0 and every Wheeler in between every 8 weeks! Could it have been something else? Absolutely! But I felt so bad, I just wanted to feel better and didn’t care what “fixed” me.

    My current insurance company makes its own meds, so I get the same one every time now. Dunno, but I thought it might help.

    :heart:

    I'm actually on name brand and have been for 2 years as I had an allergic reaction to the last batch of generic I took - hands swelled up so much I couldn't bend my fingers! Since we had no idea what was in whatever generic Walgreens had at the time, my doctor agreed to stick strictly to the name brand.

    I'm a little irritated at my endo, as it took forever to get her to comment on the increased TSH, and even then, she just said "sometimes it changes" and just told me to up my synthroid dose on Sundays to get the TSH back down to closer where she wants it to be. meanwhile, my own research led to me think that my problem was the time of day I was getting the bloodwork done. since you don't have to fast for TSH, I had always gotten it done late in the afternoons, after work. This last time, however, I had done around 11 AM in the morning. Apparently, if what I read is right, your TSH fluctuates through the day, but tends to fall as the day goes along, so its quite possible my TSH has actually been higher all along, but we were missing it because I was consistently getting my readings done in the evenings!

    I also switched, back in the spring, when I took my synthroid. I was taking it around lunch time to get it in between my metformin doses, but after talking my doctor into cutting my metformin dose in half, I went to taking the metformin of a morning and the synthroid at night. When discussing this with my PCP, she suggested perhaps taking the synthroid of a morning. She was quick to try to disuade me from the whole "the TSH is not the end all be all measurement for thyroid" (she was sticking to the traditional endocrinology viewpoint that TSH is the gold standard and all the rest aren't real helpful) though I still think there is some merit to the idea that just because your TSH and T4 levels are fine or high, doesn't mean your body is converting the T3 correctly.....Anyway, even my PCP agreed with me in wondering why my endo was resistant to putting me on a low does of T3.

    My endo just wanted me to up my T4 dose, but did agree to redo the bloodwork in 6 weeks, and if my TSH came down but my T3 didn't get up, she would then agree to put me on T3.

    meanwhile, I just about choked when I saw my part of the cost for that bloodwork - $900?!!!! Good grief! At least I'm meeting my deducible with it!

    I have been fighting exhaustion for a very long time, and my weight loss has been stalled since December. I looked back, and my last dosage change was actually october, not march, so I just couldn't understand why the TSH had risen so high. The problem I'm running into is that my doctor seems to think that as long as my TSH is where she wants it to be, I'm fine, and I can't get her to really listen when I tell her that I still feel crappy. At the same time, I've been dealing with some pretty bad bouts of depression, too, so I think my hypo symptoms of lethargy, no weight loss, and exhaustion are multifaceted. I finally relented and let my PCP put me on Welbutrin last week to see if that would help, and maybe in the meantime, I might be able to get my endo to agree to the T3 trial. so perhaps by November, I might be seeing a positive difference?

    I agree, though - even if it would just be a placebo affect, I'll take it! I wonder about that so far with the Wellbutrin - I have noticed this week that I'm not nearly as drowsy during the day and I'm not fighting falling asleep at my desk nearly as much as I was before. I'm not completely free of the foggy-headedness, and I still have a hard time focusing, but perhaps that will slowly change, too. My sleep hasn't changed, though, except for perhaps a slight increase toward insomnia, but that hasn't been bad enough to call my doctor over, yet. I haven't gotten the burst of energy my doctor claimed I would, and I haven't really noticed a decrease in my appetite yet, either, unfortunately. But at the same time, while I'm still consistently eating over calorie goal this week, I don't think I'm going over QUITE as bad as I was before, and I'm finding it a little easier to ignore the persistent push to eat, at least during the day, that I was fighting so much. At the very least, I'm have had periods of being absolutely ravenous this week, so perhaps the medication is helping a little on that front as well. Or perhaps its just a placebo effect and I'm just convincing myself its working. Though even if its just a placebo effect of mind over matter, if it gets me to feeling better and gets me back to losing weight, its worth it! I'd be much happier to get to the "you won't be interested in food" stage she claimed I would find, though!

    TSH is the foundation, but you need to review the full panel - fT3, fT4, rT3 to get an accurate picture of what's going on. You also need multiple readings over time.

    The tests don't cost that much. ~ $90 for the assays themselves. They just charge that much because who's going to say no? Note that the price is established by insurance/medicare, so even if I wanted to enter the market and offer a lower price I am legally restricted from doing so.

    TSH ideal is 0.2-2.0 for total thyroidectomies. 0.3-3.0 for the general population per the Board of Endocrinologists.

    TSH rises and falls based on a multitude of factors. Weight gain is the greatest impact as hormones are free cycling.

    Much of this is a mental game. To manage this you need to take careful note of the difference between appetite (desire for food) and hunger (physiological need of food). Thyroid has no impact on hunger, but a dramatic impact on appetite, driving people to eat when they do not need to. Establishing a routine. Managing caloric intake and output. These are all very effective mitigators in managing hormonal disorders.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    collectingblues wrote: »
    And another check in (and slight bump), of sorts.

    So. The past year thyroid's drama. Oy. Indeed, as my thyroid endo called it, I'm now 4.5 months out from the new dosage, and OMG I feel eleventymillion times better. My hip measurements are where they were in February 2017, bust is where it was in January 2017, and waist is back to May 2017 (and that's also during my cycle, so the reality may be slightly better). My weight is *gradually* coming back down, and it's trending where it was in March, before things got really horrid. I'd still like to see it lower, because I am not OK at this weight, but the important thing is that the measurements are improving. Which means the odds are good that my fall clothes should fit.

    My PCP and I have had some good talks about what happened, and she thinks it'll be 6-12 months before it all fully comes off -- she said there was little scientific data to back it up, but her experience was that the tissues need that much time to be truly healthy before they start releasing *all* of the fluid; the thyroid was straightened out in May, and the diabetes fully back in line in June... so here's to December, and then to May 2018.

    She also had me do a true trial of going gluten free. I've had on and off GI issues for 20+ years, and things really hit the worst this summer. That was where I really saw the most changes in my waist, and I feel so much better. It's a bit of a dietary adjustment, but not too awful, and totally worth the hassle. We agreed that after the past year's drama, I could take a break from medical professionals for now, and we'll discuss again in December as to whether it's pursuing a celiac diagnosis (with the other autoimmune conditions, celiac is a strong possibility, and she feels it could be seronegative, since I've had negative celiac screens in the past) or whether I should just continue gluten free, and we treat it as non-celiac gluten sensitivity. The treatment protocol is the same regardless, so...

    Awesome update :)

    I had pretty much the same experience going gluten free, though I did it for my eczema, but I dropped a good chunk of water weight that was presumably from inflammation (carb intake didn't change). It is an adjustment, but yes, totally worth it. I haven't bothered to replace things with GF alternatives (I refuse to believe there's such a thing as good GF bread, for example), just eat different stuff to get my carby goodness. My doctor and I agreed that testing was pointless, since it requires eating a significant amount of gluten for several weeks prior. I know there's an issue, I'm not going to subject myself to several weeks of eczema to prove it, and if it's an intolerance rather than an allergy (which is most likely), it's not going to test positive anyway.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    sardelsa wrote: »
    I'm on my second diet break this cut. Not because I need one but because I am living away from home and I am just not into a proper routine to be eating in a deficit right now. Also my training isn't 100% and protein intake isn't great so I'd rather not risk extra muscle loss.

    But it is great, as soon as I regularly increase my calories and carbs I look so much better.. fuller, tighter. I'm actually starting to consider recomping soon.

    Yay!! Diet breaks really are the bomb. I'm thoroughly enjoying mine, though currently doing the double whammy of glycogen replenishment and ovulation bloat. That'll drop off a bit in the next couple of days though.
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    CSARdiver wrote: »
    TSH is the foundation, but you need to review the full panel - fT3, fT4, rT3 to get an accurate picture of what's going on. You also need multiple readings over time.

    The tests don't cost that much. ~ $90 for the assays themselves. They just charge that much because who's going to say no? Note that the price is established by insurance/medicare, so even if I wanted to enter the market and offer a lower price I am legally restricted from doing so.

    TSH ideal is 0.2-2.0 for total thyroidectomies. 0.3-3.0 for the general population per the Board of Endocrinologists.

    TSH rises and falls based on a multitude of factors. Weight gain is the greatest impact as hormones are free cycling.

    Much of this is a mental game. To manage this you need to take careful note of the difference between appetite (desire for food) and hunger (physiological need of food). Thyroid has no impact on hunger, but a dramatic impact on appetite, driving people to eat when they do not need to. Establishing a routine. Managing caloric intake and output. These are all very effective mitigators in managing hormonal disorders.

    My PCP had ordered a bunch of hormone tests at the same time, and after requesting a full itemized statement, I saw that the high price was really from those. I had asked her to check those levels since it hadn't been done in at least 10 years, and I wanted to see where my PCOS currently stood.

    That put me above the ideal for me, then. Since I've been plateaued since January, though maintaining around the same 5-10 lbs, weight gain shouldn't have much of an influence.

    that's what frustrates me about the endo's I've seen. The first one that gave me the cancer diagnosis never ever checked anything beyond TSH, and neither has my current endo - she only ever ordered TSH tests and the yearly thyroglobulin tumor marker test. I had my PCP order the actual T4 and T3 test and then forward the results to my endo, and it was only after that that my endo even acknowledged that my T3 was low. She did agree to check free T4 and free T3 again in 6 weeks, which I'm up to and hope to get done next week, but her words on reverse T3 were and I quote: " As far as checking a reverse T3 there is no medical indication to do so. Reverse T3 is essentially a waste basket for thyroid hormone when it is no longer effective or active and thus should never be used to guide therapy."

    Oh well - at least she did order the other 2 beyond just the TSH, so I'll get that bloodwork done in the next week or 2 since it's been 2 months since we changed my medication and we'll go from there. I just need to make sure I get it done in the morning instead of the afternoon!

    That is the one thing I've definitely noticed the difference between and that I'm fighting - hunger vs appetite. I know I'm not hungry, and I know when I've had enough to satisfy hunger. But my appetite is definitely not in sync with my hunger, and my appetite will crave way more food, well beyond what I need to satisfy hunger. Its been very frustrating because that drive to eat is extremely strong and my willpower, especially of an evening, isn't strong enough to resist snacking. And its amazing how creative I can get when that drive to eat is in action! Doesn't help that we've had several buffet dinners for family and church events this summer, and I haven't been able to contain myself very well at all at any of them :( Wish I had the funds to live off the grid for a while; just go into seclusion and cut myself off from temptation! lol

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