Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    kimny72 wrote: »
    Still lurking and one by one reading/listening to posted links. I don't know how much physical use 2 day refeeds will be for me for two reasons: 1) I already eat fairly high carb every day and 2) I have never been a disciplined dieter LOL. I don't think I've ever stuck to a deficit for more than 2 or 3 weeks at a time without a weekend or even week-long (or longer) :astonished: unplanned slide. So I feel like I've been doing refeeds and diet breaks all along, just not planned and well-calibrated!

    I'm a healthy weight, but on the high side for my frame, and while I've never attempted to measure it I'm sure my BF% is higher than it should be. I've been on and off a 250 cal deficit for about 2 years and have maintained my weight through that whole time, so obviously the slides have been an equal offset for the successful weeks.

    Regardless, since first spotting this thread, I've been trying to stick to a slightly higher deficit (300-350 cals) M-F, and then eating maintenance on the weekends. And I think the psychological benefits for me will be well worth it, even if that's all I get out of it. In the past, when I tried to shoot for a little higher deficit to offset my bad days, I would end up snacking a lot and eating my way to maintenance calories, and then would get mad cravings for several days, and honestly I think it was guilt for not being "disciplined" enough to diet properly. But at least for the last couple of weeks, that hasn't happened. I am assuming it's because the extra food on the weekend isn't a fail, it's what I'm supposed to do, so no self-doubt. Maybe there is a physiological reason too, but I'm continuing to tweak my plan as I read more.

    I got really good about taking morning walks and hitting 9000 steps over the summer, so my other big challenge will be to stay at this higher activity level now that it's getting hella cold out :neutral:

    This is essentially me right now. First 8 months nailed it. Decline in mental health led to the same restrict maintain cycle. I feel the good news from that is that I know I can maintain and fairly painlessly with the extensive training I've now had. I too am finding it a bit easier the last few weeks, even if I fall into having my refeeds on the "wrong" days it's allowing me to recover my deficit more easily. Like you I have a habit of sliding into snacking.

    I feel like the other bit of good news is that I have probably gained a little lean mass on top of my already pretty good amount and I can't be mad at that.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    I haven't checked on this thread since my last Lyle post lol. I just read it and while it may not completely apply to everyone, something I did take from it is the natural potential of LBM gain for women in general that does apply to the blatant misinformation and inflated comments of "don't worry, that 5lb gain from the week is probably just muscle" I see in other threads complaining of natural bloating/menstrual cycle/weekend face-stuffing/partying, practically asking for pity.

    On the other hand, it's also a very supportive article that lifting heavy will not result in being "bulky/blocky/manly" from a LBM standpoint in natural athletes. Women are supposed to have a higher body fat percentage. If one were to maximize their lbm potential and reduced body fat to non-sustainable low levels, let's use the physique competitor's bf of 10%, at 130 lbs for a female with absolute lbm of 117lbs, trying to cram down weight any lower is going to either a) reduce just pure lean mass with fat remaining the same or b) kill themselves
    .

    I'll use this to segue into the other topic of perceived self-image and body dysmorphic disorder. I'm going to call it what it is because I acknowledge my disorder and most people I know personally who've developed an ED have some form of it which is a trigger. Don't like what we see? Slam calories to hell. Feeling good? Eat everything > scale jump/visual bloating > self-loathing calorie slash.. the cycle is self-feeding and perpetual. So, I understand intimately the very concept of self-image and why we put ourselves through actual trash.

    Sure, no one else can tell us how to feel about ourselves, but we may actually have a very impossible set of standards in our minds that our bodies weren't made for. That's a reality that must also be accepted. There's some comfort in the fact that we have very determined goals, realistic or not, but stay within the realm of logic. If in the quest of striving to attain the unattainable you lose yourself to demotivation, then cut that goal down to something that actually is attainable, which doesn't necessarily have to be a physical measurement. Mental/psychological/emotional growth is completely valid as a measure of success.

    Retain your sanity within the insanity. It's a weird contradiction that not many people can grasp, but if you know what I mean, then you know. Last extreme example: I know amputees who didn't let the lack of limbs get in the way of being able to perform everyday tasks or elevate themselves to reach inspirational heights of athleticism, but they all understood that they will use anything they can to help themselves. They work with what they have (or don't have in this case), and they use that drive to be absolutely happy in their own personal accomplishments.

    If your body is absolutely fighting you to chill out, then use that signal to do just that. Take a step back outside of yourself, assess where you are and where you've come from, and what you've accomplished. If you can count more than zero accomplishments, you've done something great that only you've done for yourself. You can't ask roses to bloom more than once, so you wait for new buds to form and bloom. You can't ask your body to do more than it can, so take it as an opportunity to practice acceptance and patience. You can try again later.

    *Not directed at anyone specific, but from the general tone, I just wanted to post this as something to take in for anyone dealing with issues. Be stronger than your problems.

    This is essentially what I march around here saying. It's one of those pervasive dieting/working out myths, that we just pack on the muscle whilst only hammering the cardio machines. Never mind the weird logic that you can simultaneously eat in a deficit, maintain weight and build muscle when you don't have the calories. My analogy is trying to build a house without the bricks.
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    You got it @VintageFeline. And most everyone who is new to dieting is going to head straight for the treadmill/elliptical/bike while following the latest "lose 40 lbs in 4 seconds" eating plan of calorie/macro restriction because if they knew better, well.. they probably wouldn't be asking much of the typical advice lol
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    Women can only gain 0.5-1lb of muscle per month if genetically blessed and with perfect training. You may have had some rearranging as it were, a lot of people report this happening for a time immediately after switching to maintenance and far more than would happen with the above perfect training.
  • Luna3386
    Luna3386 Posts: 888 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »

    If your body is absolutely fighting you to chill out, then use that signal to do just that. Take a step back outside of yourself, assess where you are and where you've come from, and what you've accomplished. If you can count more than zero accomplishments, you've done something great that only you've done for yourself. You can't ask roses to bloom more than once, so you wait for new buds to form and bloom. You can't ask your body to do more than it can, so take it as an opportunity to practice acceptance and patience. You can try again later.

    *Not directed at anyone specific, but from the general tone, I just wanted to post this as something to take in for anyone dealing with issues. Be stronger than your problems.

    This is incredible! I'm going to print it out and hang it up as a reminder.
    bioklutz wrote: »
    I'm 43 and not satisfied with how I look but will I ever be? I am pretty sure that there will always be something that could look better. Right now I am not satisfied with my thighs but am pretty happy with my arms, shoulders and back. I think my butt is just OK and could use some improving. But 4 years ago if I saw a picture of current me I am pretty sure I would be impressed. :blush:

    Likewise, an amazing thought. I almost can't even remember that part of my life, at least honestly or realistically, but I do know I would be impressed with myself. Or at least impressed I didn't give up on myself.

    Thanks @anubis609 and @bioklutz
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    I just read @anubis609 post about "the 5lb gain" and it reminded me about the BS I've heard and been told over the years:
    If you gain the week you start lifting it's all muscle. No. Even after trying to explain glycogen stores and intracellular water, no it's instantly pounds of muscle. I want that training program or those pharmaceuticals! I've even been asked how to get rid of glycogen so it can stop showing up on the scale. No. Just. No. But the feel good/ eat, feel bad/ restrict cycle has been a feature of my life for some time. I'm trying to acknowledge how much progress I've already made and appreciate where I am now.

    But something I never took into account in my 3 lb creeping gain, because I am so scale conscious, is what if it is muscle in my case? My clothes are looser on the waist and my upper body more defined.

    The diet break is going to end for me tomorrow. I feel better. My runs got faster. I just have to watch for shovel it in survival eating, because years end is usually stressful for me. Not holiday related, but every year an unusual chain of tragic and unfortunate events (deaths, layoffs, legal and financial issues) happens in my life. And it's already starting up :|

    This reminded me the fact that the amount of glycogen the muscles want to hold are also based on training, besides having glucose available to store in the first place.

    So while not literally muscle cells/fibers increasing, part of the aspect of them getting stronger is having the needed available energy source right there, along with attached water.

    This is always the conundrum when someone starts a diet and starts exercise from general sedentary lifestyle.

    Amount of glucose stored goes down, and usually sodium eaten goes done merely from logging or because of purposely restricting - big water weight drop first week.

    Then after few workout sessions body tries to store more glucose in muscles for reaction to workouts.
    May not get them though with steep deficit, but when they do, bam.
    And then that weekend eating some dessert - really bam, they get refilled.
    Or as discussed here - purposeful diet break eating more in general, or specific to carbs - really bam.

    So while that is muscles getting heavier, and bigger, with water, weight could hold steady or drop - especially if at same time stress related water drops.

    Good job on progress - do you plan on another break during that stressful time?
  • newheavensearth
    newheavensearth Posts: 870 Member
    Most likely yes. Probably just for sanity 's sake.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    I don't have any pictures at my highest weight. I wish I did.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    I don't have any at my very highest but I do from when I started seriously tracking. On my profile in fact. I'm still in denial that I looked at as big as I was, heh.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    This refeed is great.. its my sons 2nd bday, so i have refeeded with ice cream cake and a pumpkin muffin!

    Happy birthday, Junior Lemon!!

    I confess I keep looking at my side by side photo and going 'holy hell!'. Like, obviously I know I've lost a reasonable whack of weight, and I did some progress pics as I went that first year, but I never did a final one when I got to goal in 2015 (possibly because I didn't quite get to goal, and then hovered a little above for maintenance last year, before regaining some), then also didn't do one when I got back there earlier this year (then regained some with winter and knee injury and eating more, not less).

    Anyway, for anyone who hasn't done a side by side between starting and current, I highly recommend it. And keeping up with the progress photos as you go. I'm really glad I took that photo my first day (even though I don't look at all happy about it in the pic!), and still kicking myself for not doing measurements until I was almost a month in.

    I wish I had but too late 25lbs later!
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    Oh, and yes... happy birthday to Lemon, Jr.!
  • bioklutz
    bioklutz Posts: 1,365 Member
    bioklutz wrote: »
    Thanks for posting the video. I have been intrigued by carb refeeds so it was interesting to hear Lyle talk about it.

    I bulked last fall/winter and wanted to do the same this fall but didn't get lean enough in time. So I am going to recomp for the year. I wanted to take a more natural approach this time around - instead of eating the same calories every day I was thinking of eating 100-150 days under maintenance and then have one day where I eat more. I am rethinking this strategy after watching the video. I am probably going to eat 300-400 calories under every 3 days or so to make room for a higher day. Does that make sense? Did I understand correctly? :blush:

    So it has been a month later and I haven't exactly been following this. I have been eating heavier 2 days a week though. They have not always been consecutive days but mostly they were. So if I eat above maintenance Saturday and Sunday I have had 2 lighter days Monday and Tuesday - maybe around 1600 calories. Wednesday and Thursday have been around 1700 calories. Friday has been around 1700-2000 depending on how I am feeling.

    I have no idea how much above maintenance I have been eating on the heavy days. It is hard to track as it has been meals at restaurants and meals at family members homes. Maybe the calories have been around 3,000? I do know it has been carb and fat heavy so it not exactly a refeed. But overall my workouts have been fantastic.

    For my weight - I am only comparing low days of the week because of crazy fluctuations. I might be 1 pound down but really would need another month to determine that.

    So far I am liking this approach. I am not sure if it is a good approach for recomp but it feels far less restrictive than last time. Also odd - I have no idea what my TDEE is anymore!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    edited November 2017
    bioklutz wrote: »
    But overall my workouts have been fantastic.

    I am not sure if it is a good approach for recomp but it feels far less restrictive than last time.

    You answered your own question as to why it's good for recomp.

    Anything that aids recovery and allows a truly hard workout that calls on the body to make more muscle - is great for recomp.

    Might say it's faster. That's why bulking is faster than recomp. Recomp is faster than in a diet.

    How often has someone been in the midst of what felt like a good lifting program, every session felt hard and had to give it your all.

    It wasn't until a forced break perhaps, or non-diet week, or several days of great sleep - that upon return to it you realized "your all" was actually not true from purely an overload by weight perspective.

    Same way you could be sick with a head cold and tired, and still decide to do a session.
    But you cut the weight, and/or the sets, or several things.
    At the end you are wiped out, just as much as a workout when felt perfectly fine.

    But was it truly a workout for the muscles, were they really overloaded for weight?
    That's what building muscle needs, bulking or recomp.

    And yes - TDEE is very difficult to nail, hence the advice better to go slightly over than under.
    Body will know what to do with extra calories if lifting.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Dammit, typed a big long post and lost it because apparently I don't know how to forum on my mobile...

    Update pending once I have a new adapter for my laptop.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    I've cut my deficit slightly since my activity level has decreased. Well, duh, my activity basically creates my deficit.

    I'm still very fatigued and at this point I'm actually leaning more towards thinking this is a psoriatic arthritis flare than a thyroid problem, but it's good that I was due to see my endocrinologist this week anyway just to eliminate that possibility.'

    The last time I has a PsA flare, it lasted about six weeks and I had some major shenanigans involving one of my eyes going on, so this is a piece of cake compared to that.

    The problem with this is that it sucks for exercise because I lose a LOT. I lose basically anything I gained on weight lifting, I lose running progress, and I have to start everything back up again when the flare passes. Everything comes back soon enough, but it feels slow, you know?

    During the flare, it will just be body weight work and walking as briskly as I can manage as well as keeping my NEAT up. Recovery is not something that happens when I feel like this. The fatigue is all consuming.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    I've cut my deficit slightly since my activity level has decreased. Well, duh, my activity basically creates my deficit.

    I'm still very fatigued and at this point I'm actually leaning more towards thinking this is a psoriatic arthritis flare than a thyroid problem, but it's good that I was due to see my endocrinologist this week anyway just to eliminate that possibility.'

    The last time I has a PsA flare, it lasted about six weeks and I had some major shenanigans involving one of my eyes going on, so this is a piece of cake compared to that.

    The problem with this is that it sucks for exercise because I lose a LOT. I lose basically anything I gained on weight lifting, I lose running progress, and I have to start everything back up again when the flare passes. Everything comes back soon enough, but it feels slow, you know?

    During the flare, it will just be body weight work and walking as briskly as I can manage as well as keeping my NEAT up. Recovery is not something that happens when I feel like this. The fatigue is all consuming.

    :( I know how much fatigue sucks, and I know yours is way worse than mine. I'm always super impressed at what you manage to still do.

    So, refeeds over for this round. Four (and a bit) more days at a deficit, then bring on the diet break!!

    I'm skipping strength training today, back to working at my lab instead of putzing around at home, and didn't get it done this morning (mostly because I was following a cat around trying to get his damn medicine into him, at least I got some steps!!). I should have known the odds of me wanting to train after dinner would be zero. And tomorrow I want to get it done in the morning, so doing one now would only leave around 12 hours between workouts, I'm thinking that's not sensible for someone at my level, especially since I want to increase resistance now that I have a feel for everything.
  • ZoneFive
    ZoneFive Posts: 570 Member
    edited November 2017
    I'm starting my first diet break today. I've changed the calories/macros to MFP's default for maintenance and planned today's food. Let me just say I'm startled at how difficult it was to fit things in properly -- I didn't expect to have trouble filling in the carbs! It's going to be interesting allowing myself to plan for things like pasta and baked potatoes.

    I haven't yet started any resistance training. The last time I tried it on my own I promptly did too much too soon and hurt myself, so I'm a little anxious about it. Maybe the end of the break will be a good time to look at bodyweight exercises for the wimp. I do walk a lot, and swim and do water aerobics three times a week -- I can just carry on with those, right?

    And I'm having a pumpernickel bagel with cream cheese and lox for lunch. OMG pumpernickel bagels, how I have missed thee!