Of refeeds and diet breaks

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Replies

  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    Christine_72 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    I'm still optimistic about being at goal for Xmas, but I highly doubt that day will be maintenance cals, even if I drag my butt up the big hill in the morning before deck slothing begins.

    You would think summer Xmas would make it easier calorie-wise, but nope. We are a British colony at heart, and as much as most people have ditched the big roast dinners for BBQs, there's still plenty of puddingy goodies that must be eaten. Yes, fruit mince pies, I am talking about you.

    I would totally boycott Christmas if my family decided to do a barbeque... WTF??!!

    We can have a barbie any day of the year. Christmas requires traditional Christmassy foods :smile:

    I have done an NZ Christmas and it was indeed a barbecue. Felt absolutely nothing like Christmas and it's really really weird seeing everything decked out in lights and decorations in spring/summer.

    I would love to have a white Christmas! Last year we sat around the pool most of the day, couldn't eat outside due to all the blow fly's buzzing about lol I would imagine most Europeans visiting would be mortified by our Christmas weather :lol:
    I'm the only one in my family born here, parents are German and both my brother and sister were born over there. My mum has hung on to her German traditions.... Thankfully.

    I'm generally mortified by our Christmas weather, it's meant to be summer dammit!!!
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    We virtually never get a white Christmas, even rarer here in the south of England. Back in the motherland (Scotland) I had more but I was in central Scotland. The further north you go the more likely it is. Kind of obviously. We haven't even had decent snow in about 4 years and I love me a bit of snow.
  • bioklutz
    bioklutz Posts: 1,365 Member
    Hmmmmmm BBQ. I am pro BBQ for Christmas, that sounds fantastic!

    I normally do weights Sunday, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. I may need to swap my schedule around Thanksgiving week to take advantage of the over-eating! Or maybe I should just save leftover day for Saturday!
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    Yep, last year I decorated the windows and glass door to my lab/office with paper snowflakes. I will probably do the same again this year, cos paper snowflakes!

    And apparently there is a secret squirrel on the down low project Christmas party. Apparently I also need a Hawaiian shirt for this event.
  • Luna3386
    Luna3386 Posts: 888 Member
    We've already had several snows here so I'm guessing a white Christmas. I had a friend from NZ who was so excited for a winter Christmas. Oh course she lived in South Carolina which isn't the snowiest part of the US but it was still enough of a change and she was happy.

    I was supposed to be at the beach this week but vacation was cancelled. I was greatly looking forward to that before our long winter of really short days sets it. It's all fun until the holidays are over but then it's 3 solid months of coldness and boredom.

    I'm not expecting to go overboard eating. Unfortunately it just makes me feel very sick. The one blessing of that is it's helped me think before eating.

    @VintageFeline you said this, " I am hoping this Christmas is the last one I need to be thinking about deficits. "
    I want to say the same thing but I don't know if that's realistic. I'd love to hit goal in 2018!
  • MegaMooseEsq
    MegaMooseEsq Posts: 3,118 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.
  • SpanishFusion
    SpanishFusion Posts: 261 Member
    CynthiasChoice wrote: »
    For anyone interested, here's my post diet break results: 4.2 pound loss in 3.5 weeks!

    Oct. 9 - Starting weight, day one of diet break: 168.7
    Oct 14 - High weight during break: 170.4
    Oct. 22 - Ending weight, day 14 of diet break: 168.7
    Oct 30 - 166.2 (2.5 pounds in one week!)
    Nov. 7 - 166.9 (after house guests for 7 days, eating an average of 200 below TDEE)
    Nov 12 - 165.6
    Nov 15 - 164.5


    I think this is pretty impressive, especially since the last 25 days average to a 327 calorie per day deficit according to MFP, and a 287 calorie per day deficit according to my own pre diet break calculations.

    The math doesn't add up. My TDEE must be much higher now?
    My 25 day average after diet break was 1363 calories. That means my TDEE is 1863+!

    I know that 3 weeks of data can't be relied on, but if my weight loss rate continues the same till Christmas, I'll need to eat even more on my holiday diet break than I did on my first diet break.

    I hope others will be open to sharing their post diet break results. I'm curious!



    That is great! I ended up my first DB Sunday. Today it looks like I'm back to pre-DB weight, so hopefully things will look good next Monday!
  • Luna3386
    Luna3386 Posts: 888 Member
    CynthiasChoice wrote: »
    For anyone interested, here's my post diet break results: 4.2 pound loss in 3.5 weeks!

    Oct. 9 - Starting weight, day one of diet break: 168.7
    Oct 14 - High weight during break: 170.4
    Oct. 22 - Ending weight, day 14 of diet break: 168.7
    Oct 30 - 166.2 (2.5 pounds in one week!)
    Nov. 7 - 166.9 (after house guests for 7 days, eating an average of 200 below TDEE)
    Nov 12 - 165.6
    Nov 15 - 164.5


    I think this is pretty impressive, especially since the last 25 days average to a 327 calorie per day deficit according to MFP, and a 287 calorie per day deficit according to my own pre diet break calculations.

    The math doesn't add up. My TDEE must be much higher now?
    My 25 day average after diet break was 1363 calories. That means my TDEE is 1863+!

    I know that 3 weeks of data can't be relied on, but if my weight loss rate continues the same till Christmas, I'll need to eat even more on my holiday diet break than I did on my first diet break.

    I hope others will be open to sharing their post diet break results. I'm curious!



    This is incredible. I want both these results and the ability to pay attention to and track details.
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.
  • collectingblues
    collectingblues Posts: 2,541 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.

    Yup. That whole liver processing mess is basically why I can never enjoy a pint or a cocktail after a long run, or a race. It's just too risky for me to deal with a delayed low from exercise (which is already a factor), and then boggle my poor liver to the point where it can't be bothered to deal with a low. (Obviously, this is the non-scientific phrasing.)
  • collectingblues
    collectingblues Posts: 2,541 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.

    Well, as I was about to leave work last night, the project manager said 'hey, have a glass of wine'. Which turned into three...I still walked the longer way home (~6 km), but after that I can assure you NEAT was not a thing. I had dinner, and after that post-wine sluggish sobriety was well and truly in force. Slothed for a bit, had a nice hot bath, then an early night!

    Ah, so you promoted healthy cortisol levels. :)
  • MegaMooseEsq
    MegaMooseEsq Posts: 3,118 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.

    The metabolism effect is definitely interesting. The drunk munchies is definitely a weakness of mine, but it was after I got a good system in place to make sure I was logging those late night snacks that I really noticed the discrepancy in loss. I think before that it was masked by under-logging. As I mentioned way back earlier in the thread, my dieting experience has gone oddly smoothly so far (both physically and psychologically), which makes me want to know more about what's going on. The re-feed theory seems like it might be part of it, and over-counting alcohol would be a logical piece of the puzzle.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    @CynthiasChoice, great job! Well done on the big loss.

    A bit of an update from me. The last 2 weeks was supposed to be Refeed Round 2. However, since I was pretty much at goal, I thought I'd do a "modified refeed" in that the main purpose for doing this round of refeed was to really stop the binging. So rather than having planned maintenance days, I pre-planned daily up to 3000 calories worth of food. My maintenance based on Refeed Round 1's results was supposed to be around 2300-2400 (I think and yes, a rather short timeframe to gauge but still...). I then used the 2 weeks to eat when hungry AND eat when not hungry if I felt the urge to binge. I believe I succeeded.

    Ave calories in for the 2 weeks was 2342 cals/day. I had a few days where I ate more than 3k cals and other days of around 1700-1800 cals. Daily calorie intake did not correlate with intensity of exercise nor did it correlate with how much I ate the day before. What was good was that I didn't binge so I am cautiously optimistic. I say "cautiously" because I've tried sooo many times in the past to find a WOE that would stop my binges to no avail.

    I am up today from 2 weeks ago (1.2 pounds) but not fussed. In fact, very surprised that I didn't gain more since I had 3k cals yesterday and I've also got water retention going on (bloated etc).

    So in conclusion, it's anyone's guess whether it was Refeed Round 2 or I actually took a 2 week diet break. I'll continue with this for the next couple of months at least so time will tell!

    ETA: just to explain, when I talk about "binges", I am referring to the "eating 6k cals in an uncontrollable manner within the space of 1-2 hours" type of binges, not simply "overeating".

    I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference you are seeing with refeeds and diet breaks. You're not currently eating at a deficit? Or you were and planned two high calorie days as a refeed but then decided to take a diet break?

    Refeeds are for those eating in a deficit, of two days (or maybe more) as punctuations if you will during dieting with the calorie increase coming largely from carbs. Diet breaks are entire weeks, from 1 onwards, of eating at maintenance in whatever breakdown of daily calories and macros that ends up being.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    @CynthiasChoice, great job! Well done on the big loss.

    A bit of an update from me. The last 2 weeks was supposed to be Refeed Round 2. However, since I was pretty much at goal, I thought I'd do a "modified refeed" in that the main purpose for doing this round of refeed was to really stop the binging. So rather than having planned maintenance days, I pre-planned daily up to 3000 calories worth of food. My maintenance based on Refeed Round 1's results was supposed to be around 2300-2400 (I think and yes, a rather short timeframe to gauge but still...). I then used the 2 weeks to eat when hungry AND eat when not hungry if I felt the urge to binge. I believe I succeeded.

    Ave calories in for the 2 weeks was 2342 cals/day. I had a few days where I ate more than 3k cals and other days of around 1700-1800 cals. Daily calorie intake did not correlate with intensity of exercise nor did it correlate with how much I ate the day before. What was good was that I didn't binge so I am cautiously optimistic. I say "cautiously" because I've tried sooo many times in the past to find a WOE that would stop my binges to no avail.

    I am up today from 2 weeks ago (1.2 pounds) but not fussed. In fact, very surprised that I didn't gain more since I had 3k cals yesterday and I've also got water retention going on (bloated etc).

    So in conclusion, it's anyone's guess whether it was Refeed Round 2 or I actually took a 2 week diet break. I'll continue with this for the next couple of months at least so time will tell!

    ETA: just to explain, when I talk about "binges", I am referring to the "eating 6k cals in an uncontrollable manner within the space of 1-2 hours" type of binges, not simply "overeating".

    I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference you are seeing with refeeds and diet breaks. You're not currently eating at a deficit? Or you were and planned two high calorie days as a refeed but then decided to take a diet break?

    Refeeds are for those eating in a deficit, of two days (or maybe more) as punctuations if you will during dieting with the calorie increase coming largely from carbs. Diet breaks are entire weeks, from 1 onwards, of eating at maintenance in whatever breakdown of daily calories and macros that ends up being.

    The plan was to eat at a deficit for the 2 weeks focusing on not having a binge/restrict cycle while at deficit. What I don't know was whether I ended up doing that or eating at maintenance. I loosely tracked macros but prioritised eating what I was really craving for. I considered the plan a success because I didn't have a binge/restrict cycle at all.

    So you're right, it wasn't a structured refeed per se but an unstructured one (no planned days) and it may well turn out to have been a diet break depending on my weight trend over time. Lol, hope I'm making sense!
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    maybyn wrote: »
    @CynthiasChoice, great job! Well done on the big loss.

    A bit of an update from me. The last 2 weeks was supposed to be Refeed Round 2. However, since I was pretty much at goal, I thought I'd do a "modified refeed" in that the main purpose for doing this round of refeed was to really stop the binging. So rather than having planned maintenance days, I pre-planned daily up to 3000 calories worth of food. My maintenance based on Refeed Round 1's results was supposed to be around 2300-2400 (I think and yes, a rather short timeframe to gauge but still...). I then used the 2 weeks to eat when hungry AND eat when not hungry if I felt the urge to binge. I believe I succeeded.

    Ave calories in for the 2 weeks was 2342 cals/day. I had a few days where I ate more than 3k cals and other days of around 1700-1800 cals. Daily calorie intake did not correlate with intensity of exercise nor did it correlate with how much I ate the day before. What was good was that I didn't binge so I am cautiously optimistic. I say "cautiously" because I've tried sooo many times in the past to find a WOE that would stop my binges to no avail.

    I am up today from 2 weeks ago (1.2 pounds) but not fussed. In fact, very surprised that I didn't gain more since I had 3k cals yesterday and I've also got water retention going on (bloated etc).

    So in conclusion, it's anyone's guess whether it was Refeed Round 2 or I actually took a 2 week diet break. I'll continue with this for the next couple of months at least so time will tell!

    ETA: just to explain, when I talk about "binges", I am referring to the "eating 6k cals in an uncontrollable manner within the space of 1-2 hours" type of binges, not simply "overeating".

    I'm not sure I'm understanding the difference you are seeing with refeeds and diet breaks. You're not currently eating at a deficit? Or you were and planned two high calorie days as a refeed but then decided to take a diet break?

    Refeeds are for those eating in a deficit, of two days (or maybe more) as punctuations if you will during dieting with the calorie increase coming largely from carbs. Diet breaks are entire weeks, from 1 onwards, of eating at maintenance in whatever breakdown of daily calories and macros that ends up being.

    The plan was to eat at a deficit for the 2 weeks focusing on not having a binge/restrict cycle while at deficit. What I don't know was whether I ended up doing that or eating at maintenance. I loosely tracked macros but prioritised eating what I was really craving for. I considered the plan a success because I didn't have a binge/restrict cycle at all.

    So you're right, it wasn't a structured refeed per se but an unstructured one (no planned days) and it may well turn out to have been a diet break depending on my weight trend over time. Lol, hope I'm making sense!

    Gotcha! Planned refeed may or may not have actually been a diet break.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
    Yep, that's it! So it's monitoring over time and reverse dieting thereafter :)
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »

    The metabolism effect is definitely interesting. The drunk munchies is definitely a weakness of mine, but it was after I got a good system in place to make sure I was logging those late night snacks that I really noticed the discrepancy in loss. I think before that it was masked by under-logging. As I mentioned way back earlier in the thread, my dieting experience has gone oddly smoothly so far (both physically and psychologically), which makes me want to know more about what's going on. The re-feed theory seems like it might be part of it, and over-counting alcohol would be a logical piece of the puzzle.

    Drunk munchies are a weakness of most. I have maybe one or two successful drinking nights that were properly paired with either lean protein or nothing at all. The other countless times were chock full of hedonistic goodness lol.

    It takes a bit of self-analysis paired with A LOT of theory crafting as you mix and match factors together. If you have any actual recorded lab data that will support your theory, then it lends itself to sound more plausible/logical. But let's assume you're a very happy drinker, which would actually reduce your stress levels, your mindful snacking reinforces your planned decision to drink, therefore it's worry-free in your mind. Cortisol goes down, leptin may have some effect depending on the types of snack food (practically a refeed), drinking activities paired with a bit of water flushing lead to somewhat predictable whooshes on the scale > curious happiness ensues.

    Then on the other hand, it's sometimes a great feeling to just kind of go along for the ride without trying to science it (｡◕‿◕｡)
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.

    Well, as I was about to leave work last night, the project manager said 'hey, have a glass of wine'. Which turned into three...I still walked the longer way home (~6 km), but after that I can assure you NEAT was not a thing. I had dinner, and after that post-wine sluggish sobriety was well and truly in force. Slothed for a bit, had a nice hot bath, then an early night!

    Wine is a whole different level of inebriation for me haha. I'm one of those that have the rare post-party leanness... with alcohol anyway. Slothing is my second best activity after training.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    That's definitely interesting to say the least @Nony_Mouse lol. Aside from my own opinions that align with the current thought of BCAAs, this actually is pretty handy when you just don't feel like mixing your own drinks. Though, I'm usually the dedicated bartender whenever there's a party and by the end of the night, no one really ends up caring about their macros anyway.. or remembering that they were supposed to care about them haha.


    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    MegaMooseEsq wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Since the holidays are coming up I figured I should share some of the more interesting articles that are relevant to refeeds/diet breaks that correlate with .. well, if I'm going to be honest, absolute remorseless holiday indulgence... at least in my case lol

    http://www.leangains.com/2010/11/cheat-day-strategies-for-hedonist.html
    and
    http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html

    Lyle's version: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/10-tips-to-deal-with-holiday-weight-gain.html/

    Shoutout to @psuLemon for reminding me about leangains strategies

    So if I drink vodka and soda, I can eat my bodyweight in protein cheesecake on Christmas day and be sweet, right?? :p

    Jks, my day will be spent sitting on my deck/in the back garden in the sun, eating, drinking and making merry with my eldest niece, and not caring about calories in the least :)

    Okay brilliant science people, I assume the comment above is referring to this part of the second link: "Alcohol is labeled as 7.1 calories per gram, but the real value is more along the lines of 5.7 calories due to the thermic effect of food (TEF) which is 20% of the ingested calories. This makes the TEF of alcohol a close second to protein (20-35% depending on amino acid composition)."

    I've always assumed that calorie counts on nutrition labels at least attempted to take into account TEF. Is this not the case across the board? Or do different rules apply to alcohol calorie labeling? Or am I misreading this somehow?

    For the most part, macro calories were made in an attempt to predict the initial thermic effect after heat was applied in a calorimeter and adjusted for nitrogen loss, but metabolized nutrients undergo further processing by the body that can't be predicted or exactly calculated. Alcohol metabolism can't exactly be tested in lab on humans due to ethics; e.g. "we're gonna get you drinking X amount of alcohol/day and compare it to people who think they're drinking alcohol, but are just getting something else we told them was alcohol.. just sign here to waive your liver health" :D

    Here's a long but enjoyable explanation, at least in the first part of the article: http://physiqonomics.com/calories/

    Thanks for the explanation - that makes sense! I would also think that it would be almost impossible to keep your subjects from realizing who's getting alcohol and who isn't. I mean, the effect is pretty distinct! I'm curious because I'm not exactly what you'd call a moderate drinker, and I've found over more than a year of fairly close tracking that I've generally lost weight faster than I would have expected. I've looked at my logging to see if I was overestimating, adjusted my calories up, and ultimately concluded that my BMR/NEAT is just on the high side. Now I'm wondering how much my alcohol calories (which I also log pretty religiously) may have been skewing my overall numbers.

    Alcohol is actually quite interesting the way it plays into metabolism. For most people, the TEF of merely burning it off allows for a technical lower calorie count, and also the fact that it has a dehydrating effect may lead to more unexplained weight loss, assuming you didn't go out and eat a sheet cake in a drunken rage after getting chocolate wasted.

    And since alcohol takes priority over all other nutrients to get oxidized, many diabetics can actually reduce their blood sugar levels by temporarily halting gluconeogenesis and glycogenolysis in favor of the liver to get rid of the alcohol. It may not help in creating insulin sensitivity per se, but timing substrate manipulation is what intrigues me.

    As far as increased NEAT under inebriated conditions, some people are hyperactive when they're drunk, and others may just become more sedentary, which would partially contribute to water loss, looking and feeling leaner after a night of partying, or conversely feeling heavier/sluggish/bloated/like crap, respectively.

    Well, as I was about to leave work last night, the project manager said 'hey, have a glass of wine'. Which turned into three...I still walked the longer way home (~6 km), but after that I can assure you NEAT was not a thing. I had dinner, and after that post-wine sluggish sobriety was well and truly in force. Slothed for a bit, had a nice hot bath, then an early night!

    Wine is a whole different level of inebriation for me haha. I'm one of those that have the rare post-party leanness... with alcohol anyway. Slothing is my second best activity after training.

    Haha, yes, red wine goes straight to my head! But since the other option was beer, which I sadly can no longer partake in...I must remember to bring some vodka rtds in and stick them in my wee lab fridge. It was a fun walk home though!
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    maybyn wrote: »
    @CynthiasChoice, great job! Well done on the big loss.

    A bit of an update from me. The last 2 weeks was supposed to be Refeed Round 2. However, since I was pretty much at goal, I thought I'd do a "modified refeed" in that the main purpose for doing this round of refeed was to really stop the binging. So rather than having planned maintenance days, I pre-planned daily up to 3000 calories worth of food. My maintenance based on Refeed Round 1's results was supposed to be around 2300-2400 (I think and yes, a rather short timeframe to gauge but still...). I then used the 2 weeks to eat when hungry AND eat when not hungry if I felt the urge to binge. I believe I succeeded.

    Ave calories in for the 2 weeks was 2342 cals/day. I had a few days where I ate more than 3k cals and other days of around 1700-1800 cals. Daily calorie intake did not correlate with intensity of exercise nor did it correlate with how much I ate the day before. What was good was that I didn't binge so I am cautiously optimistic. I say "cautiously" because I've tried sooo many times in the past to find a WOE that would stop my binges to no avail.

    I am up today from 2 weeks ago (1.2 pounds) but not fussed. In fact, very surprised that I didn't gain more since I had 3k cals yesterday and I've also got water retention going on (bloated etc).

    So in conclusion, it's anyone's guess whether it was Refeed Round 2 or I actually took a 2 week diet break. I'll continue with this for the next couple of months at least so time will tell!

    ETA: just to explain, when I talk about "binges", I am referring to the "eating 6k cals in an uncontrollable manner within the space of 1-2 hours" type of binges, not simply "overeating".

    My congratulations to @CynthiasChoice as well!

    @maybyn, I've read ahead to understand how you're implementing all of this so I understood how you were using the terms in this post because I was confused on first reading.

    Saying that, I just wanted to congratulate you for making it through without binging. I share your feelings of being cautiously optimistic of using what I've learned in this thread to keep my tendency to binge at bay (and yeah, my binges sound like yours and I never had a problem this bad until this past year, I just had incidents of overeating).

    Fingers crossed for both of us!
  • bioklutz
    bioklutz Posts: 1,365 Member
    VintageFeline wrote: »
    I'll basically hit a "I look pretty alright" point in the mirror and I don't think that's far off now. After that I switch to recomp and continue the lifelong pursuit of personal perfection (which is why it's lifelong, no such thing as perfection). But after 2.5 years I am ready to be done with nearly always shooting for a deficit.

    That is so awesome! CONGRATS!
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,426 MFP Moderator
    edited November 2017
    For those who want to know some good stuff on reverse dieting. Long, but a great debate by some very knowledgeable people. Even though Menno is on cocaine :open_mouth:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swrul81qco8
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    edited November 2017
    psuLemon wrote: »
    For those who want to know some good stuff on reverse dieting. Long, but a great debate by some very knowledgeable people. Even though Menno is on cocaine :open_mouth:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swrul81qco8

    Lmao.. Menno's on another level but he comes out with some credible stuff once in a while. I'm about to watch it.

    inb4dontreversedietandjustgostraighttomaintenance

    ETA: you were damn serious about the cocaine lmao.. welp, he gets a +1 just for sipping Ecuadorian coca leaf tea

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