Of refeeds and diet breaks
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The concept of the diet break is intriguing, but how do you know you're ready for one? Do I need to wait until weight loss slows and comes to a standstill? Are cravings part of the signal that it's time? Do I schedule a break before I start to break down, or is it supposed to be a pre-emptive strike?
Basically, do you have to earn a break?
There was a recent study just done that showed the effectiveness of a 2 week on, 2 week off diet schedule
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319474.php
So no, not something you earn rather it's something we are figuring out our bodies just need naturally.
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collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Week 1 DIET BREAK: Data for those who want to see. (Deficit calorie goal was 1200, maintenance goal is 1750) 5'0"
Day 1: Weight in am: 191.6 Calories 1615, 7 cups water, Carbs 140
Day 2: 193, cal 1805, 8 cups water, carbs 200
Day 3: 194, cal 1662, 7 c water, carbs 159
Day 4: 193.6, cal 1730, 6 c water, carbs 131
Day 5: 193.4, cal 1640, 6 c water, carbs 105
Day 6: no scale, cal 1676, 5 c water, carbs 162
Day 7: 195.2, cal 1484, 9 c water, carbs 89
This morning: 193.6
Takeaways:
1) I let myself eat a few foods that I have not allowed myself during deficit. I don't think I will do this again, because my bathroom habits didn't 'move' the way I like, and even gave me a tummy ache.
2) I am going back to eliminating white sugar and white flour from my diet. I know I know, it doesn't matter what you eat, but it was working for me.
3) I relaxed back into my old ways of eating dinner at 8 pm. I know I know, it doesn't matter when, but it was working for me to eat by 6.
4) I also found that I didn't eat enough calories during the day and then had 1,000 calories to eat for dinner/evening snack. This doesn't work for me. I need to eat more calories earlier. I know, I know..., but...you know.
I'm not happy about gaining 2# in a week. I didn't eat 7,000 calories over my goal. Even from my deficit goal, I should have only gained 1#. A part of me wants to trust the process. A part of me wants to go back to deficit.
Need guidance as to why I should do this for another week, please.
If those people had persisted in eating their true maintenance calories, the weight fluctuation from the fluid gain would have smoothed out and they would go back to their goal weight or there abouts.
This is what's going on with you now. You have more water weight in your system. Relax and trust the process. That water weight will leave.
This is the part that's killing me right now. I am now up 11 pounds since May -- and seven since August. I know there is absolutely no way in heck that it is fat -- but it's now water weight all over, and even my mother made a comment on Wednesday about how my face looked less gaunt.
How long is it supposed to take for it to all settle out? Because I feel like I keep hearing/reading "Ride it out," but it's unending, and I'm not seeing any indications of it actually coming back *down*.
Have you eaten maintenance the whole time or do you keep going back and forth? I know you have issues with the numbers.
I keep going back and forth. With this level of gain, I don't trust that it's not going to keep going up and up.
So besides the scale weight which as a single stat isn't totally useful in determining much - what other measurements have gone up?
And not bloating because of a bigger meal causing some surprises.
And just so your mental can help out your emotional reasoning - what reason would you think that eating at maintenance would keep it going up and up?
Well, right now my calves (half an inch), hips (an inch), waist (almost two inches), and bust (an inch). They were all smaller last month, which tells me there's some generalized water distribution (likely/hopefully).
I don't *know* why it keeps going up and up. But I've put on 11 pounds since May with immaculate logging, which tells me that something is not going as expected.
I don't feel that 11 pounds of water weight is a normal fluctuation. Five? Maybe. I'd be uncomfortable with that, but I'd accept it a little more. 11? That's ludicrous. And by definition of the word, you'd also think that I'd see more sustained drops with such a water weight "fluctuation". Sure, I periodically see it go down a few pounds, but then it comes right back.
Right now, I just feel like a fat person trying to rationalize a gain.
So stress induced water weight gain can go upwards of 20 lbs.
You got other stress in your life, or in your body?
Meaning, you dealing with a disease (RA, FM, Lupus, similar) or such - that is a stress against the body?
Genetically, you could have a lower stress line where the negatives start happening, or you got a lot of stresses adding up.
Diet is a stress to some degree.
Food sensitivities could be also, not even to point of noticing them as body deals with them, but a stress for it to do so. It's why some people have no issues with some foods until they go into a diet, perhaps now a higher % of their foods, or the fact diet stress and that stress high enough added with others - issue.
So anyway - just some reasons why weight can keep going up.
Which might mean - as scary as it sounds - when you thought you were in maintenance, you were still in deficit to potential maintenance, not just as steep, but still stressful enough to the body.
I say potential TDEE, compared to what could have been the current suppressed TDEE.
In 2 studies - the way they got out of it was eating at that suppressed TDEE for awhile, and their BMR and TDEE increased.
What % of deficit from TDEE, or number, do you think your diet is at?
Job situation is good (I actually legitimately love my job -- ideal work/life balance, and fantastic boss and team). I'm type 1, which doesn't feel stressful, but I guess it could be. Currently dealing with a stress fracture in my foot, and have been in an aircast for four weeks now, but my ortho has given me clearance to swim, do barre, and spin if it doesn't hurt -- it's been improving over the past week. No known food sensitivities/allergies.
If I use last week's average calories, it's an 18 percent deficit. The previous week, a 13 percent deficit. 16 percent the previous week -- which was the first week I'd tried increasing. Five weeks ago, it was 34 percent, which was better than the 37 percent the week before that.
RMR was lab-calculated at 1436. When possible (AKA, when my foot doesn't hurt), I train daily to various degrees, so figure an activity factor of 1.62.
And OH! @heybales, I just realized that *you're* the one who made the Google sheet/Excel doc that I used to find that activity factor. So that's how I know what it is...
I'm sensing this direction.
http://skepchick.org/2014/02/the-female-athlete-triad-not-as-fun-as-it-sounds/
Is that the Just TDEE spreadsheet, or the big one that allows logging measurements, and tested RMR, ect?
Yup -- Female triad is definitely at play; I haven't had a regular cycle in almost 18 months now, and there's known osteopenia, identified thanks to a now slowly healing toe fracture. I whinged to my therapist that it is *so* not fair that no one considers what I get to be a true cycle, yet I get the water retention and other symptoms anyway.
I think the big one? It was the one that allowed for precise activity/exercise entries and allowed measurement logging. When I downloaded, I found the cell that was populating the RMR value, and plugged in my known value.
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Okay, I've finally managed to skim all 29 pages, and its a lot to take in, especially since I've been reading/hearing the exact opposite in other threads by other folks, especially in the debate forum.......
But I'm not sure how this should apply to me and where I'm at. I'm still morbidly obese. I started in january at 375 lbs. I'm down to 280 lbs now, 41 weeks in. I've been losing at an average of 2.3 lbs a week when I average my loss out across the entire year.
The calculator.net numbers seem to be closest to accurate for me, though I'd usually set my calorie limit about 100 less because I'm not exact on my counting during the day. Right now, I"m set at dead on - 1400 a day to lose 2 lbs per week, though I just recently reset to this lower number).
I'm sedentary definitely. Desk job, not so much activity after work, especially on week days. I'm an introvert and tend to keep to myself. I tried a gym for a couple of months, but it was an abysmal failure. Any activity I get is from the house remodeling mentioned before, and it's going to be going on for another month or two.
I've never lifted weights extensively, and really have no idea where to even start to get correct form. Right now, I cannot afford a trainer.
At the moment, I'm aiming for 1400 calories/day with 40/35/25 carbs/fat/protein. I know that's probably still low on the protein side, but its a huge struggle for me to even get that much in a day. If I focus on protein, then I'm not getting enough fruits and vegetables in a day. I also have days where its hard to get my fat levels in, so while the carbs are set to 40, I'm in actuality probably getting somewhere between 43% and 50%. And I acknowledge that I'm not exact on my calorie counting - I weight some things, but often snack a little over, usually in th neighborhood of 50-150 calories a day. I didn't consider this to be a terrible thing right now, since I still have so much to lose, and I was actually setting my calorie limit 50 - 100 calories below what calculator.net prescribed (which is actually lower than what MFP's calculator called for). And I've lost steadily for the most part, so I wasn't too worried about it.
But i have been having problems lately. the loss has slowed down and is fluctuating badly. I know that part of the problem is that since my life is currently in terrible flux (new position, moved back home across from parents, living in a camper while trying to remodel my new home before the snow flies, eating out a lot and missing calorie counts more since I'm eating with my parents every evening instead of cooking for myself), my routine is obviously being impacted and I'm sure the stress has my cortisol levels through the roof.
So being that I'm still far, far from being remotely close to where my end weight should be, should I be considering perhaps a diet break and not so much a true re-feed? Though I know that as I up calories, the carbs are going to go up naturally. Is 2 weeks the normal idea? I could do it starting next week and ending after Thanksgiving, so it would fit quite nicely with the holiday, especially as its a high-carb holiday anyway.
Since I was starting from a morbidly obese starting weight, one that I had been at most of my life except for a short stint 5 years ago where I lost 90 lbs, how do I even figure out what my maintenance calories truly are? The 11Xbody weight formula to be in a deficient is terribly higher than what I'm currently eating at! AND I'm PCOS AND I'm currently being treated for thyroid cancer, so my TSH is suppressed way below normal levels - my endo is keeping me in the extremely hyper-thyroid range, though in all honestly, I don't have any hyper symptoms, other than heat sensitivity; if fact, if we'd go by how I feel, I'd still think I was hypo thyroid.
Other the remodeling activities, I'm still not very active and have yet to find an exercise that I actually enjoy enough to keep at it. And since I can't afford to pay for a trainer right now, any suggestions? Or since I still have 125+lbs to lose, is it necessary yet?
The idea of actually taking a break is absolutely terrifying to me, especially since I lost a lot of weight 5 years ago and gained almost all of it back. And since I'm only about 4 lbs shy of the 100 lb mark, my instinct is to keep marching on until I finally hit that 100 lb mark or perhaps overshoot it a bit. But I will say that its been a huge struggle the last 2 months to lose weight.
any help would be greatly appreciated! It's very nice to find a thread that isn't full of arguments and veiled derogatory comments!0 -
I'm another sloppy logger, so I leave a buffer too. It's my way of staying sane after three years of logging.
Diet breaks are recommended for everyone as part of deficit eating because of the body's adaptations. They just need to be less frequent the more fat you have to lose. You've been at this a while, a diet break could make sense for you IF you stop stressing about it
As far as figuring out your maintenance calories, you've been losing 2 pounds a week eating 1400, so that would make your maintenance around 2400 (a two pound a week loss is a 1,000 calorie deficit). You could leave a small buffer for your sloppy logging.4 -
The concept of the diet break is intriguing, but how do you know you're ready for one? Do I need to wait until weight loss slows and comes to a standstill? Are cravings part of the signal that it's time? Do I schedule a break before I start to break down, or is it supposed to be a pre-emptive strike?
Basically, do you have to earn a break?
There was a recent study just done that showed the effectiveness of a 2 week on, 2 week off diet schedule
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/319474.php
So no, not something you earn rather it's something we are figuring out our bodies just need naturally.
Yes, the MATADOR study. I believe it was referenced was back in the beginning of the thread and I think there was a whole other thread on this a couple of weeks back.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm another sloppy logger, so I leave a buffer too. It's my way of staying sane after three years of logging.
Diet breaks are recommended for everyone as part of deficit eating because of the body's adaptations. They just need to be less frequent the more fat you have to lose. You've been at this a while, a diet break could make sense for you IF you stop stressing about it
As far as figuring out your maintenance calories, you've been losing 2 pounds a week eating 1400, so that would make your maintenance around 2400 (a two pound a week loss is a 1,000 calorie deficit). You could leave a small buffer for your sloppy logging.
^^This. And diet break article: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
As for exercise, you don't have to exercise for weight loss, but I am in the camp of everyone such do some sort of resistance training. Bodyweight would be a good place for you to start. Have you ever tried yoga? I love yoga, and you can do it at home. Check out Yoga with Adriene on Youtube. She has a beginners series, and also foundations videos for individual poses to help learn those.3 -
Also, diet break and refeed are two different things, it's not that diet break isn't 'true'. The much higher carbs on refeed are necessary because you're doing it over only a couple of days. On diet break, you still need to have carbs above 100-150g to bring leptin back up, but it sounds like you're doing that anyway.4
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collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Week 1 DIET BREAK: Data for those who want to see. (Deficit calorie goal was 1200, maintenance goal is 1750) 5'0"
Day 1: Weight in am: 191.6 Calories 1615, 7 cups water, Carbs 140
Day 2: 193, cal 1805, 8 cups water, carbs 200
Day 3: 194, cal 1662, 7 c water, carbs 159
Day 4: 193.6, cal 1730, 6 c water, carbs 131
Day 5: 193.4, cal 1640, 6 c water, carbs 105
Day 6: no scale, cal 1676, 5 c water, carbs 162
Day 7: 195.2, cal 1484, 9 c water, carbs 89
This morning: 193.6
Takeaways:
1) I let myself eat a few foods that I have not allowed myself during deficit. I don't think I will do this again, because my bathroom habits didn't 'move' the way I like, and even gave me a tummy ache.
2) I am going back to eliminating white sugar and white flour from my diet. I know I know, it doesn't matter what you eat, but it was working for me.
3) I relaxed back into my old ways of eating dinner at 8 pm. I know I know, it doesn't matter when, but it was working for me to eat by 6.
4) I also found that I didn't eat enough calories during the day and then had 1,000 calories to eat for dinner/evening snack. This doesn't work for me. I need to eat more calories earlier. I know, I know..., but...you know.
I'm not happy about gaining 2# in a week. I didn't eat 7,000 calories over my goal. Even from my deficit goal, I should have only gained 1#. A part of me wants to trust the process. A part of me wants to go back to deficit.
Need guidance as to why I should do this for another week, please.
If those people had persisted in eating their true maintenance calories, the weight fluctuation from the fluid gain would have smoothed out and they would go back to their goal weight or there abouts.
This is what's going on with you now. You have more water weight in your system. Relax and trust the process. That water weight will leave.
This is the part that's killing me right now. I am now up 11 pounds since May -- and seven since August. I know there is absolutely no way in heck that it is fat -- but it's now water weight all over, and even my mother made a comment on Wednesday about how my face looked less gaunt.
How long is it supposed to take for it to all settle out? Because I feel like I keep hearing/reading "Ride it out," but it's unending, and I'm not seeing any indications of it actually coming back *down*.
Have you eaten maintenance the whole time or do you keep going back and forth? I know you have issues with the numbers.
I keep going back and forth. With this level of gain, I don't trust that it's not going to keep going up and up.
So besides the scale weight which as a single stat isn't totally useful in determining much - what other measurements have gone up?
And not bloating because of a bigger meal causing some surprises.
And just so your mental can help out your emotional reasoning - what reason would you think that eating at maintenance would keep it going up and up?
Well, right now my calves (half an inch), hips (an inch), waist (almost two inches), and bust (an inch). They were all smaller last month, which tells me there's some generalized water distribution (likely/hopefully).
I don't *know* why it keeps going up and up. But I've put on 11 pounds since May with immaculate logging, which tells me that something is not going as expected.
I don't feel that 11 pounds of water weight is a normal fluctuation. Five? Maybe. I'd be uncomfortable with that, but I'd accept it a little more. 11? That's ludicrous. And by definition of the word, you'd also think that I'd see more sustained drops with such a water weight "fluctuation". Sure, I periodically see it go down a few pounds, but then it comes right back.
Right now, I just feel like a fat person trying to rationalize a gain.
So stress induced water weight gain can go upwards of 20 lbs.
You got other stress in your life, or in your body?
Meaning, you dealing with a disease (RA, FM, Lupus, similar) or such - that is a stress against the body?
Genetically, you could have a lower stress line where the negatives start happening, or you got a lot of stresses adding up.
Diet is a stress to some degree.
Food sensitivities could be also, not even to point of noticing them as body deals with them, but a stress for it to do so. It's why some people have no issues with some foods until they go into a diet, perhaps now a higher % of their foods, or the fact diet stress and that stress high enough added with others - issue.
So anyway - just some reasons why weight can keep going up.
Which might mean - as scary as it sounds - when you thought you were in maintenance, you were still in deficit to potential maintenance, not just as steep, but still stressful enough to the body.
I say potential TDEE, compared to what could have been the current suppressed TDEE.
In 2 studies - the way they got out of it was eating at that suppressed TDEE for awhile, and their BMR and TDEE increased.
What % of deficit from TDEE, or number, do you think your diet is at?
Job situation is good (I actually legitimately love my job -- ideal work/life balance, and fantastic boss and team). I'm type 1, which doesn't feel stressful, but I guess it could be. Currently dealing with a stress fracture in my foot, and have been in an aircast for four weeks now, but my ortho has given me clearance to swim, do barre, and spin if it doesn't hurt -- it's been improving over the past week. No known food sensitivities/allergies.
If I use last week's average calories, it's an 18 percent deficit. The previous week, a 13 percent deficit. 16 percent the previous week -- which was the first week I'd tried increasing. Five weeks ago, it was 34 percent, which was better than the 37 percent the week before that.
RMR was lab-calculated at 1436. When possible (AKA, when my foot doesn't hurt), I train daily to various degrees, so figure an activity factor of 1.62.
And OH! @heybales, I just realized that *you're* the one who made the Google sheet/Excel doc that I used to find that activity factor. So that's how I know what it is...
I'm sensing this direction.
http://skepchick.org/2014/02/the-female-athlete-triad-not-as-fun-as-it-sounds/
Is that the Just TDEE spreadsheet, or the big one that allows logging measurements, and tested RMR, ect?
What a great article *packs away in corner of brain for such things*0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm another sloppy logger, so I leave a buffer too. It's my way of staying sane after three years of logging.
Diet breaks are recommended for everyone as part of deficit eating because of the body's adaptations. They just need to be less frequent the more fat you have to lose. You've been at this a while, a diet break could make sense for you IF you stop stressing about it
As far as figuring out your maintenance calories, you've been losing 2 pounds a week eating 1400, so that would make your maintenance around 2400 (a two pound a week loss is a 1,000 calorie deficit). You could leave a small buffer for your sloppy logging.
^^This. And diet break article: https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/
As for exercise, you don't have to exercise for weight loss, but I am in the camp of everyone such do some sort of resistance training. Bodyweight would be a good place for you to start. Have you ever tried yoga? I love yoga, and you can do it at home. Check out Yoga with Adriene on Youtube. She has a beginners series, and also foundations videos for individual poses to help learn those.
Adrienne is great. I will offer my favourite, Fitness Blender. Free on YouTube and they have their own website which you can also use for free (and they just updated, it's brilliant) but they have programs too, including beginner. And anything is better than nothing. And also, I'm a big old nope of the gym, if I had to go the gym I wouldn't be exercising.2 -
For those not in his fb group, something Lyle came across that may or may not be pertinent, but it's always useful to just chock up as a reminder anyway:
So this is kind of an interesting paper on a lot of levels
1. It adds to a body of literature showing that WEIGHT loss in women is, on average, neglible with exercise only
2. However this needs to be kept within the context that the exercise itself was pretty moderate. The total energy cost was pretty low.
3. In the lean but not obese women, despite a change in WEIGHT, there was a change in body composition. It was small over the duration, like 0.5 kg fat lost and 1 kg lean gained. Weight is not body comp.
4. Of the most importance is that the variability is *kitten* HUGE. This is pretty common for these studies in general with women seeming to show more variabilty than men overall. So in response to exercise, all men will lose at least some weight while women will have some lose a lot an some actually gain. When you average this, it cancels out. I've included the changes in the comments
The real take home is that unless you do a shitload of exercise, you have to control diet to get anywhere.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29096069?dopt=Abstract
This is the chart of the individual changes for body fat percentage and lean mass. When you add all these up, it averages out to about nil but that belies individual changes.
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For those not in his fb group, something Lyle came across that may or may not be pertinent, but it's always useful to just chock up as a reminder anyway:
So this is kind of an interesting paper on a lot of levels
1. It adds to a body of literature showing that WEIGHT loss in women is, on average, neglible with exercise only
2. However this needs to be kept within the context that the exercise itself was pretty moderate. The total energy cost was pretty low.
3. In the lean but not obese women, despite a change in WEIGHT, there was a change in body composition. It was small over the duration, like 0.5 kg fat lost and 1 kg lean gained. Weight is not body comp.
4. Of the most importance is that the variability is *kitten* HUGE. This is pretty common for these studies in general with women seeming to show more variabilty than men overall. So in response to exercise, all men will lose at least some weight while women will have some lose a lot an some actually gain. When you average this, it cancels out. I've included the changes in the comments
The real take home is that unless you do a shitload of exercise, you have to control diet to get anywhere.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29096069?dopt=Abstract
This is the chart of the individual changes for body fat percentage and lean mass. When you add all these up, it averages out to about nil but that belies individual changes.
@GottaBurnEmAll and I are a little sore about that...
Will add to reading list, but I assume this is entirely different from tracking cals with majority of deficit coming from exercise (which would be me, a lot of days my entire deficit is exercise).1 -
CynthiasChoice wrote: »Great questions! You've already received some great answers, but I'll add my two cents!
I did the diet break because of a slow down in weight loss, but I wish I'd known about it earlier so I could do a pre-emptive strike. Before the diet break, I wasn't experiencing cravings or hunger, and I wasn't bored with my diet. It was just that my weight loss had slowed. During my diet break, I noticed I was sleeping much more easily. It wasn't till that happened that I realized the connection between diet induced raised cortisol levels and sleeping difficulties. I'm two weeks post diet break and I'm still getting the benefits of better sleep.
(snip)
Psychologically, I don't think I can honestly say I got a benefit from eating more or incorporating different foods, but my success with staying at maintenance calories was a big self esteem booster. It was a great experience to see what "real life" beyond dieting will look like. Since I've never purposefully maintained, I only imagined what eating properly for my weight would be like. Now I know it will be manageable, and that's a relief.
Right now I'm all in on the better sleep! We have a couple of young dogs who get us up way too early, and I'm having trouble falling back asleep again after I take them out (at some ungodly cow-milking hour). I'll be very grateful for improvement with that.
I've never achieved maintenance either, over many years of diets. I'm a bit nervous about it, but also excited to do a practice run of maintenance for a limited time. What Lyle McDonald said about a break and a bit of maintenance being scheduled and simply another chapter in the saga of better health really is a reassuring thought.
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VintageFeline wrote: »
You're among friends with the data thing. You might want to get yourself a weight trend app. I use Happyscale on the iPhone, there's also Libra and Trendweight.
As for the break. I have naturally taken breaks at Christmas and on holiday which happens to have been May the last two years. In my first year when I had the most to lose I definitely managed fine without one. Although it was actually more like 8 months as I didn't seriously start until April that year.
It's been harder compliance wise since and i knew about diet breaks and should have strategised better to help what has been rocky compliance since!
As alluded to above, they are also great practice for maintenance which shouldn't be underestimated. Adjusting down as you shrink to see what it takes to maintain the weight you are currently at is a great thing in my opinion and makes actually kind of pleased I didn't go hard and lose it all in 12 months. I have all the tools now to not go back to where I was.
I've been using HappyScale for a couple of months now, and it's truly wonderful how much that little app has drained the drama out of weighing for me! When I did WW, the weekly weigh-in could get awfully fraught for me -- did I lose? did I gain? will that wretched receptionist announce my numbers in front of everyone on line? Now it's just an everyday thing, and the up and down blips translated into a graph makes the process much calmer.
What I'm doing with that now is noting the daily weights in my food diary, so I can see quickly what yesterday's food might have to do with today's number. Again, just in the interest of drawing some possible correlations.
Thanksgiving/Christmas seems like a very logical time for a diet break. I won't even think of it as a New Year's Resolution (ugh) to go on a diet, just resuming a behavior after a test project has run.
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And I promise that I was only using "cheat meal" in huge air quotes. I never thought they were a good idea, and I knew it would be too easy to slide from one into an emotional breakdown and binge for me. A diet break will be mostly the kinds of things I eat usually, with room for treats and more unusual dishes.
One of the good things that WW taught me was that logging really does keep me on track, so I intend to keep that going. I'm grateful for that lesson, although I won't be darkening WW's doors any more.1 -
VintageFeline wrote: »
You're among friends with the data thing. You might want to get yourself a weight trend app. I use Happyscale on the iPhone, there's also Libra and Trendweight.
As for the break. I have naturally taken breaks at Christmas and on holiday which happens to have been May the last two years. In my first year when I had the most to lose I definitely managed fine without one. Although it was actually more like 8 months as I didn't seriously start until April that year.
It's been harder compliance wise since and i knew about diet breaks and should have strategised better to help what has been rocky compliance since!
As alluded to above, they are also great practice for maintenance which shouldn't be underestimated. Adjusting down as you shrink to see what it takes to maintain the weight you are currently at is a great thing in my opinion and makes actually kind of pleased I didn't go hard and lose it all in 12 months. I have all the tools now to not go back to where I was.
I've been using HappyScale for a couple of months now, and it's truly wonderful how much that little app has drained the drama out of weighing for me! When I did WW, the weekly weigh-in could get awfully fraught for me -- did I lose? did I gain? will that wretched receptionist announce my numbers in front of everyone on line? Now it's just an everyday thing, and the up and down blips translated into a graph makes the process much calmer.
What I'm doing with that now is noting the daily weights in my food diary, so I can see quickly what yesterday's food might have to do with today's number. Again, just in the interest of drawing some possible correlations.
Thanksgiving/Christmas seems like a very logical time for a diet break. I won't even think of it as a New Year's Resolution (ugh) to go on a diet, just resuming a behavior after a test project has run.
WW seems so variable in this. I was a WW way back a billion years ago, and did time as recorder (front desk gimme your money person), weigher, and leader. We never disclosed weight/loss/gain. If people wanted to share in class, they could, but it was up to them. I have heard some truly awful stories about what goes on though. I'm sorry that happened to you.1 -
And I promise that I was only using "cheat meal" in huge air quotes. I never thought they were a good idea, and I knew it would be too easy to slide from one into an emotional breakdown and binge for me. A diet break will be mostly the kinds of things I eat usually, with room for treats and more unusual dishes.
One of the good things that WW taught me was that logging really does keep me on track, so I intend to keep that going. I'm grateful for that lesson, although I won't be darkening WW's doors any more.
Haha, tis fine, and sorry if I came off a bit strong there, I just detest the term cheat meal
And yes, WW also taught me the value of tracking.3 -
collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »collectingblues wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Week 1 DIET BREAK: Data for those who want to see. (Deficit calorie goal was 1200, maintenance goal is 1750) 5'0"
Day 1: Weight in am: 191.6 Calories 1615, 7 cups water, Carbs 140
Day 2: 193, cal 1805, 8 cups water, carbs 200
Day 3: 194, cal 1662, 7 c water, carbs 159
Day 4: 193.6, cal 1730, 6 c water, carbs 131
Day 5: 193.4, cal 1640, 6 c water, carbs 105
Day 6: no scale, cal 1676, 5 c water, carbs 162
Day 7: 195.2, cal 1484, 9 c water, carbs 89
This morning: 193.6
Takeaways:
1) I let myself eat a few foods that I have not allowed myself during deficit. I don't think I will do this again, because my bathroom habits didn't 'move' the way I like, and even gave me a tummy ache.
2) I am going back to eliminating white sugar and white flour from my diet. I know I know, it doesn't matter what you eat, but it was working for me.
3) I relaxed back into my old ways of eating dinner at 8 pm. I know I know, it doesn't matter when, but it was working for me to eat by 6.
4) I also found that I didn't eat enough calories during the day and then had 1,000 calories to eat for dinner/evening snack. This doesn't work for me. I need to eat more calories earlier. I know, I know..., but...you know.
I'm not happy about gaining 2# in a week. I didn't eat 7,000 calories over my goal. Even from my deficit goal, I should have only gained 1#. A part of me wants to trust the process. A part of me wants to go back to deficit.
Need guidance as to why I should do this for another week, please.
If those people had persisted in eating their true maintenance calories, the weight fluctuation from the fluid gain would have smoothed out and they would go back to their goal weight or there abouts.
This is what's going on with you now. You have more water weight in your system. Relax and trust the process. That water weight will leave.
This is the part that's killing me right now. I am now up 11 pounds since May -- and seven since August. I know there is absolutely no way in heck that it is fat -- but it's now water weight all over, and even my mother made a comment on Wednesday about how my face looked less gaunt.
How long is it supposed to take for it to all settle out? Because I feel like I keep hearing/reading "Ride it out," but it's unending, and I'm not seeing any indications of it actually coming back *down*.
Have you eaten maintenance the whole time or do you keep going back and forth? I know you have issues with the numbers.
I keep going back and forth. With this level of gain, I don't trust that it's not going to keep going up and up.
So besides the scale weight which as a single stat isn't totally useful in determining much - what other measurements have gone up?
And not bloating because of a bigger meal causing some surprises.
And just so your mental can help out your emotional reasoning - what reason would you think that eating at maintenance would keep it going up and up?
Well, right now my calves (half an inch), hips (an inch), waist (almost two inches), and bust (an inch). They were all smaller last month, which tells me there's some generalized water distribution (likely/hopefully).
I don't *know* why it keeps going up and up. But I've put on 11 pounds since May with immaculate logging, which tells me that something is not going as expected.
I don't feel that 11 pounds of water weight is a normal fluctuation. Five? Maybe. I'd be uncomfortable with that, but I'd accept it a little more. 11? That's ludicrous. And by definition of the word, you'd also think that I'd see more sustained drops with such a water weight "fluctuation". Sure, I periodically see it go down a few pounds, but then it comes right back.
Right now, I just feel like a fat person trying to rationalize a gain.
I don't recall if you've divulged your current stats or calories/macros but some things I'm picking up on are that you may be freaking the hell out which is causing a buildup of stress, whether you outwardly express it or not, it's noted in your personal query of what it might be.
I don't remember if it was in this podcast specifically, but there's one where Lyle did mention that a 20lb stress-induced fluid retention gain was seen in one person. It's not impossible that it occurs, however, the more you want to push against the grain of thought to actually relax, the harder your body fights back.
When you mention being in a deficit and implementing refeeds as of this thread, what were you coming from calorie wise and food quality wise comparied to the refeed calories and food quality? I ask because it's quite easy to misinterpret a structured refeed/diet break as a "cheat" as it's been mentioned by others who may have thought the same. Simply put, the easiest way to go from a deficit to maintenance is to eat more of the current foods you already eat, either more often or in larger quantities. In no way, shape, or form was it meant to come across as "solely eat the foods you've been restricting/avoiding."
As a reminder, I'm generalizing this response to everyone on the thread, not just you specifically. In general, scale weight gain is a trend marker to see what might be going on with other things as well, under the assumption that every single measurement of intake was tracked meticulously. Meaning, have you had a chance to possibly see a physician regarding thyroid/hormone panels, vitamin deficiencies? Do you have any confounding metabolic disorders that could exacerbate rapid weight gain (PCOS/Hashimoto's/T2D/insulin resistance)? Do you have any lifestyle confounders that may be accounted for (smoking, drinking, other drugs - prescription or otherwise, birth control, etc)?
And finally, if the concept of dieting and weight in itself is a monument of stressful thought, then perhaps a complete break from tracking might be needed. It plays a large hand in "intuitive eating" but it still utilizes the basic concept of focusing on protein and whole food sources as a priority because nutrient density contributes largely to satiety and overall health.
Freaking the hell out is definitely an accurate depiction.
This morning, I was at 130 lb, and I'm 5'4". I have not weighed 130 in more than a year, hence the freaking out-crying-at-work-all-day thing.
Pre the half marathon in May where things started to get bad, I was sub-120, and losing at a predictable rate. Until August, I was between 120 and 123, usually closer to 121/122. I started increasing my fluids in August because I'd heard that being underhydrated could lead to gains. All that did was take me from 123 up to 125 -- and my dietitian told me it would come off, but here we are, up another five pounds. Generally I trust this dietitian -- she's an RD + MPH, and is one of the top sports nutrition people in the US. (I managed to get in with her because she happens to be local, and she's a good friend/colleague of my therapist.)
The few days when I've been eating closer to maintenance, it was largely a function of "I'm out for an event, and I'm not going to panic about food" or "OK, my colleagues brought in donuts, and I had one, because it's not going to kill me." The general idea of a "cheat" meal is foreign to me. Like, I get why other people do it, but that's not how I function. In general, I'd say that about 90 percent of what I eat is completely homemade -- I generally do not use canned foods, frozen foods, or any meat products that are beyond minimally processed. (I'm that freak who when she wants beans and rice for dinner, is rehydrating the beans from scratch.)
I do have a sweet tooth, but try to limit those things when possible (without being obsessive) because I'm also a type 1 diabetic. I'm insulin sensitive, though, and have been type 1 for 35 years now -- I'm on about half a unit per kilo, and normal adult sensitivity for T1D is a unit per kilo. I'm hypothyroid, and my TSH is actually usually trending toward hyperthyroid -- it's well-medicated, and has been fairly stable. I've been hypothyroid for 28 years. (Yay for autoimmunity.)
My last set of labs was completely normal -- but I am seeing my GP (so not my endo) on Thursday, because I sent him a "OK, this needs to be gone *now*" schedule request this morning.
I drink in moderation, but only if the calories allow -- so maybe a glass of wine once a week or so, and maybe a cocktail or beer once a week. So twice a week, at most, and precisely measured. (And, because of the type 1, no fruity mixers -- it's usually vodka + diet tonic.) Not on birth control, and no medications beyond my synthroid and insulin.
At this point, I don't doubt that not tracking would be beneficial. But I a) don't trust myself to just eat, and b) I still need to count carbs in order to do insulin dosing. So regardless (and this is what confounds the ED-recovery piece), I'm looking at numbers.
I don't doubt that it's cortisol-related. But how do I get that actually GONE?
Just to address this, being T1 wouldn't necessarily put you into the outlier group of normal metabolism, however, it is a factor. At your height and weight, I would agree you're likely insulin sensitive if you haven't had to increase dosing for the same bolus of food to manage bg levels. And while the reference for standard diabetic care is to time carbs, the proposed benefit of low carbing (with a focus on higher protein) might autoregulate some of the inflammatory response that certain carbs may be having. I only suggest this since seeing a lot of success with followers of Dr. Bernstein in T1/T2D management have been able to address any issues with either needing to follow a low FODMAP diet for IBS in conjunction with hypothyroid/PCOS/Hashimoto's symptoms.
Not that I'm recommending it, but it is some food for thought. Most likely your nutritionist would advise against it, and I won't disagree, but if you're open to the idea it's something you could try as you see fit.
As for the perceived stress levels, on top of micro-managing insulin dosing for food, I can see where the orthorexic tendencies play a role. Other than telling you to focus on methods of relaxation and taking a literal vacation from thinking, in the case of T1's, I actually would advocate alternative methods of relaxation if you were to practice partaking in extraneous forms of unwinding.. I would suggest "herbal remedies" over alcohol. For substrate metabolism, it's actually not going to interfere with bg regulation since the liver doesn't have to prioritize oxidizing THC.
As for the hydration status, while getting enough water is good, often times over-hydrating actually can dehydrate you, increasing the need for more water, leading to electrolyte imbalance, leading to wild fluctuations in hormone signaling, leading to increased stressors, leading to increased cortisol, and the cycle continues in that fashion. I will assume you're also following a low sodium protocol.. it may actually be doing more harm than good to avoid it, if you are indeed doing so.
That said, hopefully you do find some helpful advice from your GP, and while I understand the difficulty in the normative phrase to "relax," it really is beneficial to find some form of mental reprieve as well as physiological.0 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »For those not in his fb group, something Lyle came across that may or may not be pertinent, but it's always useful to just chock up as a reminder anyway:
So this is kind of an interesting paper on a lot of levels
1. It adds to a body of literature showing that WEIGHT loss in women is, on average, neglible with exercise only
2. However this needs to be kept within the context that the exercise itself was pretty moderate. The total energy cost was pretty low.
3. In the lean but not obese women, despite a change in WEIGHT, there was a change in body composition. It was small over the duration, like 0.5 kg fat lost and 1 kg lean gained. Weight is not body comp.
4. Of the most importance is that the variability is *kitten* HUGE. This is pretty common for these studies in general with women seeming to show more variabilty than men overall. So in response to exercise, all men will lose at least some weight while women will have some lose a lot an some actually gain. When you average this, it cancels out. I've included the changes in the comments
The real take home is that unless you do a shitload of exercise, you have to control diet to get anywhere.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29096069?dopt=Abstract
This is the chart of the individual changes for body fat percentage and lean mass. When you add all these up, it averages out to about nil but that belies individual changes.
@GottaBurnEmAll and I are a little sore about that...
Will add to reading list, but I assume this is entirely different from tracking cals with majority of deficit coming from exercise (which would be me, a lot of days my entire deficit is exercise).
A little sore about... not being in Lyle's group? Or about the context of the study in question? Lol
Entirely different from tracking kcals. Study seems to have been done on normal ad lib diet intake and if purposeful exercise made any impact on weight, though they studied hormone response post-exercise and from what I can gather, basically appetite/hunger hormones will autoregulate based on physical activity, though weight alone didn't account for positive changes in body composition.1 -
And because I seem to be on a roll with semi-significant articles related to body composition:
http://soheefit.com/set-target-look/2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »
You're among friends with the data thing. You might want to get yourself a weight trend app. I use Happyscale on the iPhone, there's also Libra and Trendweight.
As for the break. I have naturally taken breaks at Christmas and on holiday which happens to have been May the last two years. In my first year when I had the most to lose I definitely managed fine without one. Although it was actually more like 8 months as I didn't seriously start until April that year.
It's been harder compliance wise since and i knew about diet breaks and should have strategised better to help what has been rocky compliance since!
As alluded to above, they are also great practice for maintenance which shouldn't be underestimated. Adjusting down as you shrink to see what it takes to maintain the weight you are currently at is a great thing in my opinion and makes actually kind of pleased I didn't go hard and lose it all in 12 months. I have all the tools now to not go back to where I was.
I've been using HappyScale for a couple of months now, and it's truly wonderful how much that little app has drained the drama out of weighing for me! When I did WW, the weekly weigh-in could get awfully fraught for me -- did I lose? did I gain? will that wretched receptionist announce my numbers in front of everyone on line? Now it's just an everyday thing, and the up and down blips translated into a graph makes the process much calmer.
What I'm doing with that now is noting the daily weights in my food diary, so I can see quickly what yesterday's food might have to do with today's number. Again, just in the interest of drawing some possible correlations.
Thanksgiving/Christmas seems like a very logical time for a diet break. I won't even think of it as a New Year's Resolution (ugh) to go on a diet, just resuming a behavior after a test project has run.
WW seems so variable in this. I was a WW way back a billion years ago, and did time as recorder (front desk gimme your money person), weigher, and leader. We never disclosed weight/loss/gain. If people wanted to share in class, they could, but it was up to them. I have heard some truly awful stories about what goes on though. I'm sorry that happened to you.
Here's one.. getting the stink eye at every gain or fluctuation. Getting the stink eye for not losing the big numbers or fast enough. Even if you're on maintenance your still expected to show a loss to some degree. Like hello? I'm supposed to fluctuate between that +/- 2 lbs. My body is figuring out what to do.
Sigh. I digress. But yeah that will screw you up after a while.3
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