Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    For those not in his fb group, something Lyle came across that may or may not be pertinent, but it's always useful to just chock up as a reminder anyway:

    So this is kind of an interesting paper on a lot of levels
    1. It adds to a body of literature showing that WEIGHT loss in women is, on average, neglible with exercise only
    2. However this needs to be kept within the context that the exercise itself was pretty moderate. The total energy cost was pretty low.
    3. In the lean but not obese women, despite a change in WEIGHT, there was a change in body composition. It was small over the duration, like 0.5 kg fat lost and 1 kg lean gained. Weight is not body comp.
    4. Of the most importance is that the variability is *kitten* HUGE. This is pretty common for these studies in general with women seeming to show more variabilty than men overall. So in response to exercise, all men will lose at least some weight while women will have some lose a lot an some actually gain. When you average this, it cancels out. I've included the changes in the comments
    The real take home is that unless you do a shitload of exercise, you have to control diet to get anywhere.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29096069?dopt=Abstract

    This is the chart of the individual changes for body fat percentage and lean mass. When you add all these up, it averages out to about nil but that belies individual changes.

    uki7y1rga5gs.png

    @GottaBurnEmAll and I are a little sore about that...

    Will add to reading list, but I assume this is entirely different from tracking cals with majority of deficit coming from exercise (which would be me, a lot of days my entire deficit is exercise).

    A little sore about... not being in Lyle's group? Or about the context of the study in question? Lol

    Group. We have both been sitting on the 'pending' list for some time...who knows why.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
    edited November 2017
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    newheavensearth wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    ZoneFive wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »

    You're among friends with the data thing. You might want to get yourself a weight trend app. I use Happyscale on the iPhone, there's also Libra and Trendweight.

    As for the break. I have naturally taken breaks at Christmas and on holiday which happens to have been May the last two years. In my first year when I had the most to lose I definitely managed fine without one. Although it was actually more like 8 months as I didn't seriously start until April that year.

    It's been harder compliance wise since and i knew about diet breaks and should have strategised better to help what has been rocky compliance since!

    As alluded to above, they are also great practice for maintenance which shouldn't be underestimated. Adjusting down as you shrink to see what it takes to maintain the weight you are currently at is a great thing in my opinion and makes actually kind of pleased I didn't go hard and lose it all in 12 months. I have all the tools now to not go back to where I was.

    I've been using HappyScale for a couple of months now, and it's truly wonderful how much that little app has drained the drama out of weighing for me! When I did WW, the weekly weigh-in could get awfully fraught for me -- did I lose? did I gain? will that wretched receptionist announce my numbers in front of everyone on line? Now it's just an everyday thing, and the up and down blips translated into a graph makes the process much calmer.

    What I'm doing with that now is noting the daily weights in my food diary, so I can see quickly what yesterday's food might have to do with today's number. Again, just in the interest of drawing some possible correlations.

    Thanksgiving/Christmas seems like a very logical time for a diet break. I won't even think of it as a New Year's Resolution (ugh) to go on a diet, just resuming a behavior after a test project has run.

    WW seems so variable in this. I was a WW way back a billion years ago, and did time as recorder (front desk gimme your money person), weigher, and leader. We never disclosed weight/loss/gain. If people wanted to share in class, they could, but it was up to them. I have heard some truly awful stories about what goes on though. I'm sorry that happened to you.

    Here's one.. getting the stink eye at every gain or fluctuation. Getting the stink eye for not losing the big numbers or fast enough. Even if you're on maintenance your still expected to show a loss to some degree. Like hello? I'm supposed to fluctuate between that +/- 2 lbs. My body is figuring out what to do.

    Sigh. I digress. But yeah that will screw you up after a while.

    That really does suck. It's definitely not like that everywhere. I knew a hell of a lot less about normal fluctuations and things that masked fat loss, and definitely didn't know about adaptive thermogenesis, last century (I was, like, 19-20 when I was a leader), but I always, always tried to be positive with my members and find reasons why they weren't losing. Being negative is just discouraging. That's not what I was paid for. I'd like to think I was an awesome leader.
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    newheavensearth wrote: »

    WW seems so variable in this. I was a WW way back a billion years ago, and did time as recorder (front desk gimme your money person), weigher, and leader. We never disclosed weight/loss/gain. If people wanted to share in class, they could, but it was up to them. I have heard some truly awful stories about what goes on though. I'm sorry that happened to you.

    Here's one.. getting the stink eye at every gain or fluctuation. Getting the stink eye for not losing the big numbers or fast enough. Even if you're on maintenance your still expected to show a loss to some degree. Like hello? I'm supposed to fluctuate between that +/- 2 lbs. My body is figuring out what to do.

    Sigh. I digress. But yeah that will screw you up after a while. [/quote]


    This is why I never tried WW. I have enough trouble with self condemnation and settings goals too high to achieve but beating myself up over it.
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)

    Oh god, I've probably got all kinds of crap in terms of pages I follow. And probably groups that people have added me to that I've never gotten around to unfollowing.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    ZoneFive wrote: »
    And I promise that I was only using "cheat meal" in huge air quotes. I never thought they were a good idea, and I knew it would be too easy to slide from one into an emotional breakdown and binge for me. A diet break will be mostly the kinds of things I eat usually, with room for treats and more unusual dishes.

    One of the good things that WW taught me was that logging really does keep me on track, so I intend to keep that going. I'm grateful for that lesson, although I won't be darkening WW's doors any more.

    Haha, tis fine, and sorry if I came off a bit strong there, I just detest the term cheat meal :p

    And yes, WW also taught me the value of tracking.

    Me too but no problem. I understood in the context what you meant.
  • Luna3386
    Luna3386 Posts: 888 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    And because I seem to be on a roll with semi-significant articles related to body composition:

    http://soheefit.com/set-target-look/

    Loooove it. @anubis609 pass along any more :)
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)

    Oh god, I've probably got all kinds of crap in terms of pages I follow. And probably groups that people have added me to that I've never gotten around to unfollowing.

    Yeah the occasional time I do look at group join requests and if I happen to see "X is a member of 423 groups" I'm kind of like "sweet hell, why should I let you in here?" .. but I'll approve them anyway (because of vetting laziness) and if they spam/don't read the pinned post = instant ban :trollface:
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    Options
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    For those not in his fb group, something Lyle came across that may or may not be pertinent, but it's always useful to just chock up as a reminder anyway:

    So this is kind of an interesting paper on a lot of levels
    1. It adds to a body of literature showing that WEIGHT loss in women is, on average, neglible with exercise only
    2. However this needs to be kept within the context that the exercise itself was pretty moderate. The total energy cost was pretty low.
    3. In the lean but not obese women, despite a change in WEIGHT, there was a change in body composition. It was small over the duration, like 0.5 kg fat lost and 1 kg lean gained. Weight is not body comp.
    4. Of the most importance is that the variability is *kitten* HUGE. This is pretty common for these studies in general with women seeming to show more variabilty than men overall. So in response to exercise, all men will lose at least some weight while women will have some lose a lot an some actually gain. When you average this, it cancels out. I've included the changes in the comments
    The real take home is that unless you do a shitload of exercise, you have to control diet to get anywhere.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29096069?dopt=Abstract

    This is the chart of the individual changes for body fat percentage and lean mass. When you add all these up, it averages out to about nil but that belies individual changes.

    uki7y1rga5gs.png

    @GottaBurnEmAll and I are a little sore about that...

    Will add to reading list, but I assume this is entirely different from tracking cals with majority of deficit coming from exercise (which would be me, a lot of days my entire deficit is exercise).

    He posts some gems of random studies about weird *kitten*. Highly entertaining. Then the good stuff too.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    Options
    anubis609 wrote: »
    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)

    I got in almost immediately........
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    Options
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    newheavensearth wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    ZoneFive wrote: »
    VintageFeline wrote: »

    You're among friends with the data thing. You might want to get yourself a weight trend app. I use Happyscale on the iPhone, there's also Libra and Trendweight.

    As for the break. I have naturally taken breaks at Christmas and on holiday which happens to have been May the last two years. In my first year when I had the most to lose I definitely managed fine without one. Although it was actually more like 8 months as I didn't seriously start until April that year.

    It's been harder compliance wise since and i knew about diet breaks and should have strategised better to help what has been rocky compliance since!

    As alluded to above, they are also great practice for maintenance which shouldn't be underestimated. Adjusting down as you shrink to see what it takes to maintain the weight you are currently at is a great thing in my opinion and makes actually kind of pleased I didn't go hard and lose it all in 12 months. I have all the tools now to not go back to where I was.

    I've been using HappyScale for a couple of months now, and it's truly wonderful how much that little app has drained the drama out of weighing for me! When I did WW, the weekly weigh-in could get awfully fraught for me -- did I lose? did I gain? will that wretched receptionist announce my numbers in front of everyone on line? Now it's just an everyday thing, and the up and down blips translated into a graph makes the process much calmer.

    What I'm doing with that now is noting the daily weights in my food diary, so I can see quickly what yesterday's food might have to do with today's number. Again, just in the interest of drawing some possible correlations.

    Thanksgiving/Christmas seems like a very logical time for a diet break. I won't even think of it as a New Year's Resolution (ugh) to go on a diet, just resuming a behavior after a test project has run.

    WW seems so variable in this. I was a WW way back a billion years ago, and did time as recorder (front desk gimme your money person), weigher, and leader. We never disclosed weight/loss/gain. If people wanted to share in class, they could, but it was up to them. I have heard some truly awful stories about what goes on though. I'm sorry that happened to you.

    Here's one.. getting the stink eye at every gain or fluctuation. Getting the stink eye for not losing the big numbers or fast enough. Even if you're on maintenance your still expected to show a loss to some degree. Like hello? I'm supposed to fluctuate between that +/- 2 lbs. My body is figuring out what to do.

    Sigh. I digress. But yeah that will screw you up after a while.

    That really does suck. It's definitely not like that everywhere. I knew a hell of a lot less about normal fluctuations and things that masked fat loss, and definitely didn't know about adaptive thermogenesis, last century (I was, like, 19-20 when I was a leader), but I always, always tried to be positive with my members and find reasons why they weren't losing. Being negative is just discouraging. That's not what I was paid for. I'd like to think I was an awesome leader.

    I have a few friends who constantly on and off Slimming World (basically same model different name as WW, which we also have). And they get so worked up about weigh in and if they gain one week they literally think they've gained. I take such issue with the "leaders" not knowing their physiology *kitten* from their elbow, even the basics. So these people just bob along in mortal fear of the weight in when they've been "bad" and eaten over their "syns" or whatever.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)

    Oh god, I've probably got all kinds of crap in terms of pages I follow. And probably groups that people have added me to that I've never gotten around to unfollowing.

    Yeah the occasional time I do look at group join requests and if I happen to see "X is a member of 423 groups" I'm kind of like "sweet hell, why should I let you in here?" .. but I'll approve them anyway (because of vetting laziness) and if they spam/don't read the pinned post = instant ban :trollface:

    I am admin of a very niche group, we vet everyone. My word people just join groups to group collect I'm sure.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    As for the hydration status, while getting enough water is good, often times over-hydrating actually can dehydrate you, increasing the need for more water, leading to electrolyte imbalance, leading to wild fluctuations in hormone signaling
    This has crossed my mind also. Electrolyte imbalance can cause all kinds of weird things with water retention and unexpected gain.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    People seem to be stuck in pending limbo for a while in Lyle's group. I'm under the impression that some of the vetting comes from a general glance at your list of "friends of friends" or groups you're a part of. Even some of the people I invite get stuck. I have no explanation other than it's so flooded with requests that vetting each person is just a complete ball ache. I don't even pay attention to anyone's request in the group I admin lol. I just assume someone else will let them in (ಥ﹏ಥ)

    Oh god, I've probably got all kinds of crap in terms of pages I follow. And probably groups that people have added me to that I've never gotten around to unfollowing.

    Yeah the occasional time I do look at group join requests and if I happen to see "X is a member of 423 groups" I'm kind of like "sweet hell, why should I let you in here?" .. but I'll approve them anyway (because of vetting laziness) and if they spam/don't read the pinned post = instant ban :trollface:

    Nah, I checked and I'm in, like, seven groups - a few fitness, a few archaeology, a couple cat related. Nothing too derpy.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    Side note. I am not sure if it's the refeeds or the new workout, but damn I am looking more lean lately even while staying the same weight the past few weeks. So NSV for me. Woot!

    Same :)

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