Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
    edited November 2017
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    Luna3386 wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »

    @Luna3386 - Without you needing to go to deep into the science, I'm going to keep it simple. If you have fat to lose, aim for fat loss with a reasonable deficit and train to support your diet. Have a day or two in the week to have a maintenance day (maintenance based on your weight), and yes you can be on that style of deficit planning for 6 weeks and maintain your new lower weight for about 2 weeks and do it again.

    Mind you, your deficit calories do not need to be very low in the first place. Aggressive dieting has its place, but for lifelong sanity and health, you do not need to diet aggressively.

    After you've set your calories, you set protein to ~1g/lb of bodyweight. Carbs and fat are going to be pure preference for your food choices. You can either have higher carbs and lower fat, or you can have higher fat and lower carbs, or you can have a little bit of both. No matter what, those macros are going to fit into your calculated deficit.

    Everything I've just said is the synopsis of this humorous but accurately written article by Aadam Ali. It's not science deep and it's not written for people in the industry. It's for everyone: http://physiqonomics.com/fat-loss/

    Thanks @anubis609

    I'm really trying to do this the right way. No more babies for me so I have no reason to gain weight in the future, and I don't plan on it.

    I've used that website to calculate my calories and macros: higher carb because too much fat gives me awful digestive issues and stomach pains. I'm assuming refeeds days would still increase calories by increasing carbs even if my fats are at the lowest end (25%). I didn't see where to calculate maintenance so I added ~300 in carbs to those days. And I'm guessing diet breaks will increase all of my macros, not just carbs.

    I think I'm at the point where I can't diet aggressively, at least not during this school year where I already feel burnt out. Which leads me to my problem: a lack of patience. :/ And since a higher percentage of body fat is resting right on my midsection it makes me feel larger than I really am. Just have to keep my focus on myself and not focus on others.

    Too bad mfp doesn't have an option to easily switch between calorie/macro ranges for these refeeds.

    @Luna3386

    The rough and easy way to calculate your maintenance is to multiply your current bodyweight x 14-16.. use the lower number if you're more sedentary. To calculate your deficit, subtract 20% of that (alternatively you can just multiply your current bodyweight x 11-12, again use the lower number if you're less active).

    That was all taken from Aadam's article + this article: https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/1200-calorie-diet/

    Lacking patience is the usual culprit for yo-yo dieting. Are you planning on entering any bikini or physique competitions soon? If so, then more aggressive approaches are applicable and temporary. For lifelong health and comfort, unless you're planning on dying soon, take your time with achieving a healthy weight. I don't mean to sound morbidly blunt, but I'm using extreme examples because nothing is ever *that* extreme or necessary to get done as fast as possible.

    I'm also going to refer you to listen to Sohee Lee on the mindset of many people that are starting to approach a diet for long-term goals as opposed to short-term shortcuts that don't really ingrain solid foundations for maintenance.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEa_zUVVhPA
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    PAV8888 wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Luna3386 wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »

    - As counterintuitive as it is: the leaner you are, the less dieting you need to do to continue fat loss with optimal hormone response; therefore, instead of extended periods of refeeds, more frequent, small refeed periods tend to work better.

    - Diet breaks are different from refeeds. They are extended periods of maintenance feeding at your new lower weight to practice long-term weight loss habits. No one wants (or should want) to chronically diet forever or be on repetitive bulk/cut cycles. They also have the benefit of providing a psychological reprieve from the deleterious effects of dieting. Again, it's not a free pass to eat all the things, but you do get more wiggle room.

    @anubis609

    I haven't watched the video yet and haven't read through the rest of this thread yet... But I struggle with listening and reading these things and applying it to myself. For years I lost weight by eating less (while breastfeeding, I've lost weight 4 times in my life: after my original gain and then after each of my 3 kids. I'm back at the weight I seem to always get down to but no further) and exercising (some weights but not compound lifts)- I knew nothing about anything science related haha. Honestly, most of this stuff goes over my head.

    I'm not lean. I'm probably around 30% bf. I lost ~25 pounds earlier this year, then stalled. I believe I was just trying to cut my calories too much and could no longer adhere to it. I did do a maintenance break in September.

    Am I supposed to refeeds 2 days a week even though I'm not lean and have no plans on a sub 22-24% body fat or competing? How do I set my deficit up on the other days without dropping too low? What should my macros be? Would 6 weeks of deficit, 2 weeks of maintenance be a good cycle plan?

    @Luna3386 - Without you needing to go to deep into the science, I'm going to keep it simple. If you have fat to lose, aim for fat loss with a reasonable deficit and train to support your diet. Have a day or two in the week to have a maintenance day (maintenance based on your weight), and yes you can be on that style of deficit planning for 6 weeks and maintain your new lower weight for about 2 weeks and do it again.

    Mind you, your deficit calories do not need to be very low in the first place. Aggressive dieting has its place, but for lifelong sanity and health, you do not need to diet aggressively.

    After you've set your calories, you set protein to ~1g/lb of bodyweight. Carbs and fat are going to be pure preference for your food choices. You can either have higher carbs and lower fat, or you can have higher fat and lower carbs, or you can have a little bit of both. No matter what, those macros are going to fit into your calculated deficit.

    Everything I've just said is the synopsis of this humorous but accurately written article by Aadam Ali. It's not science deep and it's not written for people in the industry. It's for everyone: http://physiqonomics.com/fat-loss/

    Why are you repeating what I keep telling people?
    Oh, wait a second... maybe I am repeating what YOU have been saying! :blush:

    --I quoted your post verbatim on my MFP wall <with attribution> :wink:

    Ha. Thanks. We all end up saying the same thing in the end since it makes the most sense. Cheers! (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    I am so ready for refeed weekend. Pity it's still a day away.

    TGIF.
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    I am so ready for refeed weekend. Pity it's still a day away.

    TGIF.

    So much yes... lol.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    I am so ready for refeed weekend. Pity it's still a day away.

    TGIF.

    So much yes... lol.

    I either pushed too hard on deficit this week, am dog-tired from increased resistance on training yesterday, am dog-tired from looking at tiny bones in a basement the past two days, or am dog-tired cos ramping up to ovulation. Take your pick. The scale is not my friend today, but water weight, so meh.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
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    I pushed my deficit this week because not hungry. It started off because Monday I had a migraine and just kept going from there.

    I had originally planned to do refeeds every two weeks, but I'm noticing that my workouts aren't quite what they should be.

    I went shopping today and bought potatoes and cereal. I'm thinking a nice thick chowder with beans and potatoes.

    I'm also thinking of taking a rest week next week and eating low calorie. This system of doing weekend refeeds has eliminated my need to exercise to blunt my hunger, so I want to see if resting my body will do me some good in terms of recovering some of my former oomph when it comes to training.

    Bear in mind that when I say low calorie, it's not necessarily huge deficit, it's just that I create my deficit with a lot of movement/exercise. I'm thinking scaling back for a week is needed because I haven't really taken a recovery day (relative to my needs) in forever.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    I am definitely doing rest day today. My recent calorie burn alone tells me I haven't had a decent one for awhile. This will be helped by the crappy weather. So, enough steps not to starve/still be able to hit protein, yoga, yoga, yoga after work.
  • maggibailey
    maggibailey Posts: 289 Member
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    I don’t know if it is because I am in a healthy weight range from start to finish but both times I’ve ended up in the “oh bah my pants are too tight “ realm and needed to count calories to lose 15 pounds, the weight comes off exactly as expected on the calories I eat, for the entirety of the journey. I don’t feel starving (a bit hungry some days). I don’t stop losing (yes it fluctuates but the trend is down). I haven’t had to refeed or take a diet break and I think it would slow down the process when I’m already losing in a healthy fashion. I don’t work out all that often other than my yoga classes, but when I do go to a body combat class or take a 4 hour hike I find that my performance has much more to do with what I have eaten that day then how my deficit is as a whole. I can certainly see from a mental stand point how you would want to if you start to feel miserable. But from personal experience it isn’t an absolute for every person. Am I wrong in this? Or do you just all firmly believe it because it has worked for you? Or is it simply because I’m not over or under weight? ~not science just my opinion~
  • maggibailey
    maggibailey Posts: 289 Member
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    Good to know. I’d hate to complicate things further than they need to be! So f it’s working I’ll just keep doing it till it doesn’t :)
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    maggibailey wrote: »
    I don’t know if it is because I am in a healthy weight range from start to finish but both times I’ve ended up in the “oh bah my pants are too tight “ realm and needed to count calories to lose 15 pounds, the weight comes off exactly as expected on the calories I eat, for the entirety of the journey. I don’t feel starving (a bit hungry some days). I don’t stop losing (yes it fluctuates but the trend is down). I haven’t had to refeed or take a diet break and I think it would slow down the process when I’m already losing in a healthy fashion. I don’t work out all that often other than my yoga classes, but when I do go to a body combat class or take a 4 hour hike I find that my performance has much more to do with what I have eaten that day then how my deficit is as a whole. I can certainly see from a mental stand point how you would want to if you start to feel miserable. But from personal experience it isn’t an absolute for every person. Am I wrong in this? Or do you just all firmly believe it because it has worked for you? Or is it simply because I’m not over or under weight? ~not science just my opinion~

    I mean this with as much positivity as possible when I say that you are part of the metabolic spectrum most people envy with fervid spite. Lol. In other words, you are the "ideal" in terms of hunger and satiety signaling, tracking calories and energy works to your favor in all aspects of thermodynamic and mathematical balance.

    Truly, none of this would or should apply to you in the sense that you are absolutely a representation of the end result we're all attaining to be. The concept of refeeds/diet breaks/frequent maintenance is more designed to be implemented in the chronic/long-term/stringent dieter that has either a long way to go in terms of body fat or has such a concise plan to achieve their "perfect" body composition.

    Be proud of where you are and no need to question it. I can only speak for myself, and to restate, I've come from morbid obesity to a level of leanness and athletic fitness that's now along the lines of chasing a highly unattainable goal. I'm very well aware of this and cognizant of what appears to be futility, but is actually a constant drive to remain active and mindfully healthy. Basically, I use my problems in a positive way :D

    Yeah, like with anything else everybody reacts differently to stressors. There may be something else that throws you for a loop but maintaining a deficit isn't one, mentally or physically. So yeah, you're one of the lucky ones, enjoy it!
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
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    Nony_Mouse wrote: »
    maggibailey wrote: »
    Good to know. I’d hate to complicate things further than they need to be! So f it’s working I’ll just keep doing it till it doesn’t :)

    Yep, carry on as you are :)

    Interestingly, that period where I lost easily back to goal I was, for the most part, not particularly active. I had a couple of weeks late in the piece where I was hella active and hella stressed because I was moving house. So, packing, moving boxes every night (loading my car up to take them to work, which was closer to my new house to store until move day), busy, busy, busy and plain forgetting to eat (tis what I do when I'm really stressed). I deliberately did a week at maintenance once I'd moved, because I knew I'd been undereating, and also because that's my ED danger territory. Once I'm in a cycle of undereating, it's way too easy to stay there, so I hauled my butt out of it.

    My experience too. I got lazy at the start of the year and it was the most I've lost in a three month period in over a year. But my NEAT tanked so the losses weren't actually as large as they should have been. Pick your battles really.
  • maggibailey
    maggibailey Posts: 289 Member
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    @anubis609 oh I don’t know about all that lol! From my calculations I maintain at a lower level than most people and that does mean I’m always saying no to some delicious baked good I’d rather be eating (or even not so delicious I’m not too picky I just love baked goods!). I have been giving some thought to trying for the “unattainable “ body type. I just haven’t signed up for what I know from the past is a very time consuming project. So I will definitely reread this thread it I start down that path! And my ease at maintenance might be enviable but I am in awe of people like you :)
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    maggibailey wrote: »
    I don’t know if it is because I am in a healthy weight range from start to finish but both times I’ve ended up in the “oh bah my pants are too tight “ realm and needed to count calories to lose 15 pounds, the weight comes off exactly as expected on the calories I eat, for the entirety of the journey. I don’t feel starving (a bit hungry some days). I don’t stop losing (yes it fluctuates but the trend is down). I haven’t had to refeed or take a diet break and I think it would slow down the process when I’m already losing in a healthy fashion. I don’t work out all that often other than my yoga classes, but when I do go to a body combat class or take a 4 hour hike I find that my performance has much more to do with what I have eaten that day then how my deficit is as a whole. I can certainly see from a mental stand point how you would want to if you start to feel miserable. But from personal experience it isn’t an absolute for every person. Am I wrong in this? Or do you just all firmly believe it because it has worked for you? Or is it simply because I’m not over or under weight? ~not science just my opinion~

    You can be an outlier such that the research study results don't apply as much to you.

    I'll also say that a deficit based on what amounts to a great amount of fat burn only doesn't seem as stressful to the body when it's reasonable, which it sounds like yours is when done.

    And the odd intense workout is just balanced out through other days.
    Deficit effects recovery from an exercise standpoint, as you've noticed you can always time eating to have a good workout if recovered - if not doing anything that requires much recovery though - then it's not going to be noticed or negative that much at all, to accomplish the same workout tomorrow or next day.

    So less stress there.

    The reasonable deficit, and genetically not being the same as what the research study points out, are likely reasons not as effected.

    But it's one of those things - no one knows except through experience - and since you likely wouldn't know while having the negative effects, except to compare when not having them - it would be better to be on the safe side, not attempt to find that line and cross over it into negative territory.

    Unless a pro making money off their body, and assistance with their training/diet - just not worth it.
  • maggibailey
    maggibailey Posts: 289 Member
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    @heybales I would totally agree, like I tell new moms all the time “you don’t even know you are sleep deprived until you stop being sleep deprived”. I feel better and more energized right now 10 pounds below my start weight than I did before. But that may be just due to less calorie dense low nutrient foods and better sleep. Imagine how fabulous I’d be feeling if I tried a refeed? :). I am headed to California for the weekend maybe I’ll just eat at maintenance for the two days and see.
  • maybyn
    maybyn Posts: 233 Member
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    maggibailey wrote: »
    I don’t know if it is because I am in a healthy weight range from start to finish but both times I’ve ended up in the “oh bah my pants are too tight “ realm and needed to count calories to lose 15 pounds, the weight comes off exactly as expected on the calories I eat, for the entirety of the journey. I don’t feel starving (a bit hungry some days). I don’t stop losing (yes it fluctuates but the trend is down). I haven’t had to refeed or take a diet break and I think it would slow down the process when I’m already losing in a healthy fashion. I don’t work out all that often other than my yoga classes, but when I do go to a body combat class or take a 4 hour hike I find that my performance has much more to do with what I have eaten that day then how my deficit is as a whole. I can certainly see from a mental stand point how you would want to if you start to feel miserable. But from personal experience it isn’t an absolute for every person. Am I wrong in this? Or do you just all firmly believe it because it has worked for you? Or is it simply because I’m not over or under weight? ~not science just my opinion~


    Totally agree with what the others have said. If it's working for you, don't change anything!!

    I'm similar in many ways to you. I've never been overweight in my entire life (except pregnancy), always around 125 -130 pounds (BMI 20-ish) since I was a teen. I don't have a small frame and am not petite (just your medium frame, average Joe really) but I wanted to be 10-12 pounds lighter for a sport I'm keen in. I've always managed to lose that weight in the past within 2 months by cutting calories and intensifying training (the classic under-feeding and over-training type of regime). When it's over, my weight drifts back up and I've always been fine with that because I'm seriously a lazy bum and do not have any desire to eat less and do intense training 12 months of the year to maintain below 115.

    Well... nothing worked this year! Stress was probably a huge factor as my job was simply awful... and I just wasn't able to succeed in anything so this thread came at a very ideal time for me because it's given me other options to try. (I would say though I was close to goal already when I did the refeed, if not, I would have continued pushing on).
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    maggibailey wrote: »
    @anubis609 oh I don’t know about all that lol! From my calculations I maintain at a lower level than most people and that does mean I’m always saying no to some delicious baked good I’d rather be eating (or even not so delicious I’m not too picky I just love baked goods!). I have been giving some thought to trying for the “unattainable “ body type. I just haven’t signed up for what I know from the past is a very time consuming project. So I will definitely reread this thread it I start down that path! And my ease at maintenance might be enviable but I am in awe of people like you :)

    Lol thank you. You might maintain at a lower level in relation to your activity level, but considering you actually are willing to say no to your favorite types of food, as opposed to being openly accepting to a level of detriment, I would attribute it to having an innate awareness that some of us may have lost somewhere along the way. Of course, you could very well be going through a series of mental checks and balances that result in turning food away, but the overarching end result is that you've successfully maintained yourself without going through extremes.

    I'm not sure what your experience level is with training, but I would venture to guess that you may actually be able to attain the unattainable body type given your circumstances, and it may not even need to take much time. In my case, without skin removal surgery, I couldn't naturally attain the level of visual aesthetics I'm actually pushing for haha.

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