On a Keto journey - things I should know?

sijomial

nvmomketo wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Here is the link for the Low Carber Daily group: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group They are a great bunch who know this diet inside and out.

River_Goddess wrote: »

Also, you do not need tons of fat. Fat bombs and fatty coffee and smothering everything in oil is unnecessary. If you are burning fat for fuel, use body fat first, then dietary fat second. You will add more fat to your diet later, when you are at maintainence and not wanting your body to use it's fat stores for fuel.
In the meantime, look at it like this: carbs are a maximum cap, protein is a goal, and you only need to eat enough fat to feel full and stay satisfied between meals. If you're hungry in the day, add more fat. Otherwise, let your body fat stores be your fuel

This is pretty spot on. If you are losing weight you do not want to eat too much fat (calories) because you want to use body fat first. If your body needs 2000 kcals a day to function, you may want to eat only 1500 kcal a day with (for example) about 100g of fat (900 kcals) with under 50g of carbs (200 kcal) and about 100g of protein (400kcal). That allows you to use 500kcal of body fat for energy each day. When you are at maintenance, you can then increase fats to 1400kcal (or about 155g) each day.

You will be burning more dietary fat for fuel, but after becoming fat adapted (a few months of ketosis) the body uses a bit less glucose for fuel - it's glucose requirements drops a bit. You will be burning more dietary fat, but also more body fat and less glucose if compared to someone with the same caloric intake and needs.

My advice is to make sure you are getting 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day to avoid an electrolyte imbalance (which some call keto flu). That's about 2 teaspoons of salt a day.

This is where you said you'd be burning more fat and how the study showing that low fat diets equating calories and protein were better at burning body fat refuted the point (the point I bolded for you) you made.

Hope this helps.

I guess I was not very clear in my thinking at all.

By more body fat burned, I was just thinking of what the body makes for fuel when fuel is in short supply. I someone who is not fat adapted, I imagine their body would be looking for glucose fuel sources - glycogen or using gluconeogenesis. In someone who is fat adapted, they need less glucose and glucose is no longer the primary fuel so fat and ketones will be turned to as a fuel more readily.

If eating the same calories and the same deficit, those who are fat adapted and those who are glucose burners should lose the same weight. Their bodies will just get there using slightly different pathways.

The glycogen used will be replenished later from dietary carbs. Those carbs won't be used for fuel, instead going for body fat.
Also 60% of energy needs at rest are fueled by fat in a normal person.

I agree, if carbs are being eaten.

I also agree that 60% of energy needs are fueled by fat in a non-fat adapted person.

EVERYONE is fat adapted.

misnomer1

nvmomketo wrote: »

VintageFeline wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

russelljam08 wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Here is the link for the Low Carber Daily group: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group They are a great bunch who know this diet inside and out.

River_Goddess wrote: »

Also, you do not need tons of fat. Fat bombs and fatty coffee and smothering everything in oil is unnecessary. If you are burning fat for fuel, use body fat first, then dietary fat second. You will add more fat to your diet later, when you are at maintainence and not wanting your body to use it's fat stores for fuel.
In the meantime, look at it like this: carbs are a maximum cap, protein is a goal, and you only need to eat enough fat to feel full and stay satisfied between meals. If you're hungry in the day, add more fat. Otherwise, let your body fat stores be your fuel

This is pretty spot on. If you are losing weight you do not want to eat too much fat (calories) because you want to use body fat first. If your body needs 2000 kcals a day to function, you may want to eat only 1500 kcal a day with (for example) about 100g of fat (900 kcals) with under 50g of carbs (200 kcal) and about 100g of protein (400kcal). That allows you to use 500kcal of body fat for energy each day. When you are at maintenance, you can then increase fats to 1400kcal (or about 155g) each day.

You will be burning more dietary fat for fuel, but after becoming fat adapted (a few months of ketosis) the body uses a bit less glucose for fuel - it's glucose requirements drops a bit. You will be burning more dietary fat, but also more body fat and less glucose if compared to someone with the same caloric intake and needs.

My advice is to make sure you are getting 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day to avoid an electrolyte imbalance (which some call keto flu). That's about 2 teaspoons of salt a day.

Nope, the "metabolic advantage" myth has been busted multiple times.
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(17)30152-X/fulltext
"our meta-analysis of 32 controlled feeding studies with isocaloric substitution of carbohydrate for fat found that both energy expenditure (26 kcal/d; P <.0001) and fat loss (16 g/d; P <.0001) were greater with lower fat diets."

No no. I did not say there was a metabolic advantage, I said the body's need for glucose falls. It is not a large amount but it does. For example, the brain appears to use about 120-150g of glucose a day (I believe the numbers are) but after becoming fat adapted the need for glucose falls to about 40g.

Fuel needs change slightly based on diet. I did not say you burn more calories on a LCHF diet, I said that you burn more calories as fat... And yes, it will be dietary fat if you are not eating at a deficit.

The amount of body fat used for fuel is the exact same regardless of macros. Dietary fat amount makes zero difference. Ingested fat does not dictate level of body fat used. It's a really weird assertion. What happens to those not eating keto? What is the body turning to in order to compensate for the calorie deficit? Spoiler: body fat, just the same as those of you who choose to eat keto.

You are making it sound like there's some superior use of body fat or that eating too much fat reduces the ability of the body to use body fat as a fuel source or that using carbs as a fuel source before body fat is somehow bad. All of which is patently untrue.

I guess I did not make myself clear. Those who are fat adapted will burn the same calories as when not fat adapted but a greater percentage of those calories burned will be from fat, whether dietary or body fat when fat adapted. In those who are fat adapted, less glucose is required because fat or ketones becomes the primary fuel. previously believed minimum glucose needs are reduced.

An extreme example: someone who switches to a zero carb, carnivorous diet will have their body make 150g of glucose via gluconeogenesis for required glucose needs by organs like the brain or RBCs. After three months, that person may only need to make 60 g of glucose because the body's glucose needs have changed. What has not changed is that the person's TDEE. If it was 2200 kcal when they started, it is 2200 kcal after three months, assuming no weight, activity, fitness, or health changes.

Keto is not magic and will not cause more calories to be burned, just a larger percentage of the burned calories are some sort of fat.

In short, if you eat more fat you burn that fat. If you eat more carbs you burn those carbs. The amount of body fat burned remains same in both cases if calorie intake is the same.

So calorie in calorie out is all that matters for weight loss. Keto gives some flu, headaches, etc and is more restrictive than CICO deficit diet.

Thank you.

GottaBurnEmAll

nvmomketo wrote: »

stevencloser wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Here is the link for the Low Carber Daily group: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/394-low-carber-daily-forum-the-lcd-group They are a great bunch who know this diet inside and out.

River_Goddess wrote: »

Also, you do not need tons of fat. Fat bombs and fatty coffee and smothering everything in oil is unnecessary. If you are burning fat for fuel, use body fat first, then dietary fat second. You will add more fat to your diet later, when you are at maintainence and not wanting your body to use it's fat stores for fuel.
In the meantime, look at it like this: carbs are a maximum cap, protein is a goal, and you only need to eat enough fat to feel full and stay satisfied between meals. If you're hungry in the day, add more fat. Otherwise, let your body fat stores be your fuel

This is pretty spot on. If you are losing weight you do not want to eat too much fat (calories) because you want to use body fat first. If your body needs 2000 kcals a day to function, you may want to eat only 1500 kcal a day with (for example) about 100g of fat (900 kcals) with under 50g of carbs (200 kcal) and about 100g of protein (400kcal). That allows you to use 500kcal of body fat for energy each day. When you are at maintenance, you can then increase fats to 1400kcal (or about 155g) each day.

You will be burning more dietary fat for fuel, but after becoming fat adapted (a few months of ketosis) the body uses a bit less glucose for fuel - it's glucose requirements drops a bit. You will be burning more dietary fat, but also more body fat and less glucose if compared to someone with the same caloric intake and needs.

My advice is to make sure you are getting 3000-5000 mg of sodium a day to avoid an electrolyte imbalance (which some call keto flu). That's about 2 teaspoons of salt a day.

This is where you said you'd be burning more fat and how the study showing that low fat diets equating calories and protein were better at burning body fat refuted the point (the point I bolded for you) you made.

Hope this helps.

I guess I was not very clear in my thinking at all.

By more body fat burned, I was just thinking of what the body makes for fuel when fuel is in short supply. I someone who is not fat adapted, I imagine their body would be looking for glucose fuel sources - glycogen or using gluconeogenesis. In someone who is fat adapted, they need less glucose and glucose is no longer the primary fuel so fat and ketones will be turned to as a fuel more readily.

If eating the same calories and the same deficit, those who are fat adapted and those who are glucose burners should lose the same weight. Their bodies will just get there using slightly different pathways.

The glycogen used will be replenished later from dietary carbs. Those carbs won't be used for fuel, instead going for body fat.
Also 60% of energy needs at rest are fueled by fat in a normal person.

I agree, if carbs are being eaten.

I also agree that 60% of energy needs are fueled by fat in a non-fat adapted person.

No, the net amount of body fat burned doesn't matter if you're "fat adapted" or not. Your energy balance is what controls how much net body fat you're going to burn.

Do note that he said at rest, though. And it's true. When we're not at rest, we cycle through substrates that we've eaten (being simplistic here). If you're keto, you're going to be burning more dietary fat because that's what you've eaten.