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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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MikePfirrman wrote: »https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-linking-leaky-gut-chronic.html
Here's another article on a study demonstrating "Leaky Gut" by a scientist at Harvard Medical School. The only information I could find (recent) debunking leaky gut was just opinion blog (no scientific backing) by Gastroenterologist associations that just call it "quackery" based on five or ten year old information. Of course, they have nothing (money) at stake.
@MikePfirrman thanks for the current medical link. It seems some may be posting using dated medical sources perhaps. I know my autoimmune issues started to resolve in just 30 days after I cut out all added sugar and all forms of all grains Oct 2014.
Like me three years ago some still do not want to accept their health issues may be from the way they eat. A leaky gut can lead to premature death I now understand. What I was eating clearly was a cause of my failing health since three years later after stopping sugar and grains cold turkey my health continues to improve.26 -
You have NO idea. Back in 1987 there was no Doppler radar. With precious little warning, our city was hit by a killer tornado. Even with the bigger storms, we are seeing very little loss of life these days, because we have decent warning. Heck, my phone tells me to the minute when I'm about to be rained on.2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)7 -
You have NO idea. Back in 1987 there was no Doppler radar. With precious little warning, our city was hit by a killer tornado. Even with the bigger storms, we are seeing very little loss of life these days, because we have decent warning. Heck, my phone tells me to the minute when I'm about to be rained on.
LOL. Yeah, I was 15yo back in 1987. I remember. And maybe it's different where you are (I'm in New England), but they get the forecast wrong many days. I've been caught out in the rain (heavy downpour on one particular occasion) on my motorcycle a few times when there was supposedly a 0% chance of precipitation all day.0 -
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I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)[/quote]
Of course PT is not part of alternative medicine - it is entirely mainstream and is taught within Medical Schools, Faculties of Medicine and such institutions
I know because I am a PT and I work directly with doctors and surgeons
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Yes, for another example, my mother broke her hip, and was immediately after surgery working with a PT at her hospital.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)
It sounds like you are not, what I term, an "absolutist". That's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy half the stuff I read on Holistic sites. I suppose I'm different (not by choice) in not believing everything I read in Conventional Journals either.
I was more in your camp until my wife got sick. I'm more open minded now simply because we didn't have any solutions from conventional meds/conventional docs. We tried that for over a year and I ran out of patience.
I also believe in vaccines. I'm certainly not an anti-vaccine person. But I've seen enough with vaccines, too, to think there's some element of truth to what some anti-vaccine people are saying. Believe it or not, not all are crazy whackos. No one seems to want to get the full truth anymore. I personally believe that some people (probably those with MTHFR genetic defects) react more negatively than others to vaccines. What (I think) we'll find out is if they just made sure that those with that defect took methyl b vitamins prior to vaccination, it would be more safe for all taking vaccines.
I don't think they know nearly enough about gut permeability (yet) to come to a conclusive way to treat it. More than gut permeability (or leaky gut), I think that they'll find more solutions with changing the gut microbiome (a completely separate issue) for changing modern medicine. That's where what most would have considered Holistic medicine 10 years ago is meeting Traditional medicine. Large drug makers are addressing the underlying causes instead of just the symptoms. Progress will be slow until projects like the Human Microbiome study are more complete.
I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
Both Holistic MDs that have treated my wife's Fibromyalgia, as kids or young adults, had unexplainable Chronic Pain. They were both told it was "all in your head". Until five or six years ago, Fibro patients were considered my most conventional docs to be psychiatric patients. Perhaps this is where some of the anger I have comes from for the establishment. The arrogance of conventional doctors is at a crazy level. A company has produced a test for Fibromyalgia called the FM/a test. It was a test that was created by a researcher that was actually trying to prove that the biomarkers for Fibromyalgia weren't unique. He was shocked and found a very distinct pattern that proves that Fibro patients have a very unique pattern of Cytokines (I'm not a scientist so I hope I'm accurate on that, though I'm sure I'll be personally attacked on this). Now, nearly every doctor recognizes Fibro as a legit diagnosis but just doesn't know how to treat it. It took a decade to reach this point. That's too long for some. Yes, I'll take some hypothesis as hope and run with it. Guilty! But it beats the alternative watching a loved one die in front of you. So far, the hypotheses that I've ran with have worked. That's proof enough for me and allows me to brush off any criticism I might hear on a weight loss board.
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut. It's one of many scientific reviews on the subject. The conclusion (in summary), there are many, many things in our Western diet today this weren't there historically -- mainly pollutants, additives and preservatives. These lead to permeability issues with the gut.
I don't know how more scientific you can get that "leaky gut" isn't some made up "thing" by witch doctors. These are reputable scientists and publications.
My life has been saved by Western medicine too. I had MRSA so bad around 5 years ago I nearly died. No one said (at least me) that Western medicine has no merits. Some need lifesaving surgeries. But, there are many cases in which traditional medicine fails. In my belief, Fibromyalgia is one where they severely fail.
All the drugs our currently have shown only success (by only reduction in symptoms) of around 30%, hardly great success. And many of these drugs lead to longer term health risks.
Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
There are "money makers" on both sides of the aisle, Holistic and traditional. There was a long term study in Europe a few years ago about how Physical Therapy (1000s of participants, double blind) has just as good of outcomes as shoulder surgery for rotator cuff tears. Yet, in the US, we are so quick to go under the knife for this condition. That's a scam in most cases too.
We see Guardasil commercials all the time. Yet certain Pediatrics counsels are against the vaccine. Why? Because some teenagers are dying from the shots (of course these are being found as coincidences by the drug companies). https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/health-issues/new-concerns-about-the-human-papillomavirus-vaccine There is a Japanese substance (derived from mushrooms, it's a chemical extract) called AHCC. It's a natural, very safe antiviral. It has been shown in studies to kill the HPV virus in 50% of the time in the short term. So why isn't this being used to eradicate the HPV virus? Money. That's why. Money. It's all about money in the US, not consumer's best interest. That AHCC doesn't generate much money, so the research is limited. A few US and Canadian universities have done limited studies on it and can't find more funding. Yet it also shows great promise for cancer and Chronic Fatigue. Oh yeah, and the pharmaceutical companies new answer to Fibromyalgia -- an antiviral mixed with one of the failed drugs they are trying now. This is supposed to be introduced this year or in 2018. Well, they learned that from the Holistic community. Many believe that Fibro starts with a virus and has an underlying virus suppressing the immune system. Monolaurin (a natural antiviral from coconuts) has been dramatically helping people with Fibro for years. So has SF-722 and now AHCC. These (possibly) kill the underlying virus and AHCC dramatically boosts the action of natural killer cells. There are a couple of Pharmaceutical companies already pushing AHCC (for about 10 times the normal cost).
Methyl Bs help people with Chronic illness. They were developed for those that have the underlying genetic defect of MTHFR. The first to produce these was the pharmaceutical giants. When they were found to help people with Fibro, the price was ghastly. Since the patent has dropped off, they are now reasonable in price (under $20). When the pharmaceutical companies sold Methyl Bs, they were very, very expensive. I, for one, would like to see more independent testing on supplements (to make sure you're getting what you paid for). But at the same time, whenever large pharmaceutical companies produce a simple supplement, the price goes up 10 to 100 times what it should be, so I'm grateful for supplement companies with excellent reputations like Thorne or Pure Encapsulations or Now Foods. The best you can do is make sure they follow GMP and NSF standards.
Until all of us question what you're being told (by everyone) and being your own health advocate (and pushing for our government to stop listening to lobby dollars and do what's right), we're all worse off. Doctors certainly don't monitor themselves very much, Holistic or Traditional.
"It's common to hold up the results of a study as definitive evidence on a topic. But a single study is a piece in a puzzle. To formulate an informed opinion we must consider the entire body of research and draw relevant practical conclusions based on the preponderance of evidence" Brad Schoenfeld.10 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)
It sounds like you are not, what I term, an "absolutist". That's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy half the stuff I read on Holistic sites. I suppose I'm different (not by choice) in not believing everything I read in Conventional Journals either.
I was more in your camp until my wife got sick. I'm more open minded now simply because we didn't have any solutions from conventional meds/conventional docs. We tried that for over a year and I ran out of patience.
I also believe in vaccines. I'm certainly not an anti-vaccine person. But I've seen enough with vaccines, too, to think there's some element of truth to what some anti-vaccine people are saying. Believe it or not, not all are crazy whackos. No one seems to want to get the full truth anymore. I personally believe that some people (probably those with MTHFR genetic defects) react more negatively than others to vaccines. What (I think) we'll find out is if they just made sure that those with that defect took methyl b vitamins prior to vaccination, it would be more safe for all taking vaccines.
I don't think they know nearly enough about gut permeability (yet) to come to a conclusive way to treat it. More than gut permeability (or leaky gut), I think that they'll find more solutions with changing the gut microbiome (a completely separate issue) for changing modern medicine. That's where what most would have considered Holistic medicine 10 years ago is meeting Traditional medicine. Large drug makers are addressing the underlying causes instead of just the symptoms. Progress will be slow until projects like the Human Microbiome study are more complete.
I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
Both Holistic MDs that have treated my wife's Fibromyalgia, as kids or young adults, had unexplainable Chronic Pain. They were both told it was "all in your head". Until five or six years ago, Fibro patients were considered my most conventional docs to be psychiatric patients. Perhaps this is where some of the anger I have comes from for the establishment. The arrogance of conventional doctors is at a crazy level. A company has produced a test for Fibromyalgia called the FM/a test. It was a test that was created by a researcher that was actually trying to prove that the biomarkers for Fibromyalgia weren't unique. He was shocked and found a very distinct pattern that proves that Fibro patients have a very unique pattern of Cytokines (I'm not a scientist so I hope I'm accurate on that, though I'm sure I'll be personally attacked on this). Now, nearly every doctor recognizes Fibro as a legit diagnosis but just doesn't know how to treat it. It took a decade to reach this point. That's too long for some. Yes, I'll take some hypothesis as hope and run with it. Guilty! But it beats the alternative watching a loved one die in front of you. So far, the hypotheses that I've ran with have worked. That's proof enough for me and allows me to brush off any criticism I might hear on a weight loss board.
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
Traditional medicine has already implemented treatments/screening based on DNA results, so I'm not sure how you have reached the conclusion that the medical community is "dead set against it." Look at breast cancer screening and treatment, for example (I'm sure there are other areas as well -- this is just one that I've read about recently).4 -
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
Physiotherapy is not an offshoot of Chiropracty. I once had my shoulders done by a highly competent Chiropractor and his body knowledge was impressive. Unfortunately, I still have problems with the accreditation process. It's too loose, and practitioners can hold a wide variety of practices.0 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
As I understand it, the medical community was against people getting DNA information about heightened risk for certain scary diseases (or less risk) on your own, without medical advice explaining what it means and, in many cases, that it is not a death sentence (slightly higher risk of Alzheimers does not mean "I might as well stop bothering, as I am getting Alzheimers"). I think this makes sense.
I also believe (as janejellyroll pointed out) that DNA screens are used for various things. In other cases, they may not be necessary -- I am at heightened risk of hemochromatosis, as my mother has it, but rather than testing for it they can just test for iron, which they do.
Most things DNA doesn't help much with yet, although it is interesting. I've had a DNA test (for family history) and did some of the medical type screens because I was curious, and it told me some things I already knew (not lactose intolerant) but mostly just somewhat different risk levels or "this gene is thought to be one of various related to this."
Amusingly, one of the things you can do with DNA tests is have it predict your eye color. The prediction for mine was a light-ish blue that looked like my dad's eyes. But mine are green. ;-) It's all quite complex, and that's without getting into something that has a variety of other inputs too (as with things like tendency to gain weight, addiction, etc).7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
As I understand it, the medical community was against people getting DNA information about heightened risk for certain scary diseases (or less risk) on your own, without medical advice explaining what it means and, in many cases, that it is not a death sentence (slightly higher risk of Alzheimers does not mean "I might as well stop bothering, as I am getting Alzheimers"). I think this makes sense.
I also believe (as janejellyroll pointed out) that DNA screens are used for various things. In other cases, they may not be necessary -- I am at heightened risk of hemochromatosis, as my mother has it, but rather than testing for it they can just test for iron, which they do.
Most things DNA doesn't help much with yet, although it is interesting. I've had a DNA test (for family history) and did some of the medical type screens because I was curious, and it told me some things I already knew (not lactose intolerant) but mostly just somewhat different risk levels or "this gene is thought to be one of various related to this."
Amusingly, one of the things you can do with DNA tests is have it predict your eye color. The prediction for mine was a light-ish blue that looked like my dad's eyes. But mine are green. ;-) It's all quite complex, and that's without getting into something that has a variety of other inputs too (as with things like tendency to gain weight, addiction, etc).
Even before our more recent DNA testing was available, the medical community had already embraced types of genetic screening/counseling when it was relevant (like for Tay-Sachs disease). I've never read about the medical community being resistant to this type of information, just recommending caution when it comes to being overly reductionist or using results without placing them in an appropriate context (like in your example about Alzheimers).3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)
It sounds like you are not, what I term, an "absolutist". That's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy half the stuff I read on Holistic sites. I suppose I'm different (not by choice) in not believing everything I read in Conventional Journals either.
I was more in your camp until my wife got sick. I'm more open minded now simply because we didn't have any solutions from conventional meds/conventional docs. We tried that for over a year and I ran out of patience.
I also believe in vaccines. I'm certainly not an anti-vaccine person. But I've seen enough with vaccines, too, to think there's some element of truth to what some anti-vaccine people are saying. Believe it or not, not all are crazy whackos. No one seems to want to get the full truth anymore. I personally believe that some people (probably those with MTHFR genetic defects) react more negatively than others to vaccines. What (I think) we'll find out is if they just made sure that those with that defect took methyl b vitamins prior to vaccination, it would be more safe for all taking vaccines.
I don't think they know nearly enough about gut permeability (yet) to come to a conclusive way to treat it. More than gut permeability (or leaky gut), I think that they'll find more solutions with changing the gut microbiome (a completely separate issue) for changing modern medicine. That's where what most would have considered Holistic medicine 10 years ago is meeting Traditional medicine. Large drug makers are addressing the underlying causes instead of just the symptoms. Progress will be slow until projects like the Human Microbiome study are more complete.
I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
Both Holistic MDs that have treated my wife's Fibromyalgia, as kids or young adults, had unexplainable Chronic Pain. They were both told it was "all in your head". Until five or six years ago, Fibro patients were considered my most conventional docs to be psychiatric patients. Perhaps this is where some of the anger I have comes from for the establishment. The arrogance of conventional doctors is at a crazy level. A company has produced a test for Fibromyalgia called the FM/a test. It was a test that was created by a researcher that was actually trying to prove that the biomarkers for Fibromyalgia weren't unique. He was shocked and found a very distinct pattern that proves that Fibro patients have a very unique pattern of Cytokines (I'm not a scientist so I hope I'm accurate on that, though I'm sure I'll be personally attacked on this). Now, nearly every doctor recognizes Fibro as a legit diagnosis but just doesn't know how to treat it. It took a decade to reach this point. That's too long for some. Yes, I'll take some hypothesis as hope and run with it. Guilty! But it beats the alternative watching a loved one die in front of you. So far, the hypotheses that I've ran with have worked. That's proof enough for me and allows me to brush off any criticism I might hear on a weight loss board.
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
Traditional medicine has already implemented treatments/screening based on DNA results, so I'm not sure how you have reached the conclusion that the medical community is "dead set against it." Look at breast cancer screening and treatment, for example (I'm sure there are other areas as well -- this is just one that I've read about recently).
Yes, I'm confused by this assertion. My son got DNA screening for celiac disease (since I have it) when he had his IBS diagnosed. We found out then that apparently either my husband or I carries the gene for Crohn's disease since my son has the gene but it's not active.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)
It sounds like you are not, what I term, an "absolutist". That's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy half the stuff I read on Holistic sites. I suppose I'm different (not by choice) in not believing everything I read in Conventional Journals either.
I was more in your camp until my wife got sick. I'm more open minded now simply because we didn't have any solutions from conventional meds/conventional docs. We tried that for over a year and I ran out of patience.
I also believe in vaccines. I'm certainly not an anti-vaccine person. But I've seen enough with vaccines, too, to think there's some element of truth to what some anti-vaccine people are saying. Believe it or not, not all are crazy whackos. No one seems to want to get the full truth anymore. I personally believe that some people (probably those with MTHFR genetic defects) react more negatively than others to vaccines. What (I think) we'll find out is if they just made sure that those with that defect took methyl b vitamins prior to vaccination, it would be more safe for all taking vaccines.
I don't think they know nearly enough about gut permeability (yet) to come to a conclusive way to treat it. More than gut permeability (or leaky gut), I think that they'll find more solutions with changing the gut microbiome (a completely separate issue) for changing modern medicine. That's where what most would have considered Holistic medicine 10 years ago is meeting Traditional medicine. Large drug makers are addressing the underlying causes instead of just the symptoms. Progress will be slow until projects like the Human Microbiome study are more complete.
I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
Both Holistic MDs that have treated my wife's Fibromyalgia, as kids or young adults, had unexplainable Chronic Pain. They were both told it was "all in your head". Until five or six years ago, Fibro patients were considered my most conventional docs to be psychiatric patients. Perhaps this is where some of the anger I have comes from for the establishment. The arrogance of conventional doctors is at a crazy level. A company has produced a test for Fibromyalgia called the FM/a test. It was a test that was created by a researcher that was actually trying to prove that the biomarkers for Fibromyalgia weren't unique. He was shocked and found a very distinct pattern that proves that Fibro patients have a very unique pattern of Cytokines (I'm not a scientist so I hope I'm accurate on that, though I'm sure I'll be personally attacked on this). Now, nearly every doctor recognizes Fibro as a legit diagnosis but just doesn't know how to treat it. It took a decade to reach this point. That's too long for some. Yes, I'll take some hypothesis as hope and run with it. Guilty! But it beats the alternative watching a loved one die in front of you. So far, the hypotheses that I've ran with have worked. That's proof enough for me and allows me to brush off any criticism I might hear on a weight loss board.
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
Traditional medicine has already implemented treatments/screening based on DNA results, so I'm not sure how you have reached the conclusion that the medical community is "dead set against it." Look at breast cancer screening and treatment, for example (I'm sure there are other areas as well -- this is just one that I've read about recently).
Yes, I'm confused by this assertion. My son got DNA screening for celiac disease when he had his IBS diagnosed. We found out then that apparently either my husband or I carries the gene for Crohn's disease since my son has the gene but it's not active.
Yep - I knew there had to be other instances that I was familiar with yet.1 -
Maybe the idea that the medical community is "dead set against" genetic testing comes from this:
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/genomics.html
I can think of a few genetic tests that absolutely make a difference. The need for the test however, is determined from family history.
The BRCA 1 and 2 gene. Men don't need this test.
Cystic Fibrosis.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
As I understand it, the medical community was against people getting DNA information about heightened risk for certain scary diseases (or less risk) on your own, without medical advice explaining what it means and, in many cases, that it is not a death sentence (slightly higher risk of Alzheimers does not mean "I might as well stop bothering, as I am getting Alzheimers"). I think this makes sense.
I also believe (as janejellyroll pointed out) that DNA screens are used for various things. In other cases, they may not be necessary -- I am at heightened risk of hemochromatosis, as my mother has it, but rather than testing for it they can just test for iron, which they do.
Most things DNA doesn't help much with yet, although it is interesting. I've had a DNA test (for family history) and did some of the medical type screens because I was curious, and it told me some things I already knew (not lactose intolerant) but mostly just somewhat different risk levels or "this gene is thought to be one of various related to this."
Amusingly, one of the things you can do with DNA tests is have it predict your eye color. The prediction for mine was a light-ish blue that looked like my dad's eyes. But mine are green. ;-) It's all quite complex, and that's without getting into something that has a variety of other inputs too (as with things like tendency to gain weight, addiction, etc).
The DNA analysis told me mostly stuff I already knew - that my mom is in no way lactose intolerant despite her claims (after reading the results she finally admitted that she just hates milk, after 80 years of lying about it!), that we carry genes associated with heart disease and obesity, etc.
It's interesting that I also have green eyes and the prediction also missed them, and thought my eyes looked like my blue eyed mother's. I wish I had gotten my dad's DNA before he died - his were like mine but with enough brown to be more hazel than green. It seems that one of the genes they have yet to identify is the one that makes your eyes and mine green!1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut.
Thanks for attempting to answer the question. This is what I get from the article:
"The incidence of autoimmune diseases (AD) is increasing world-wide, mainly in western countries and the role of the environment in AD development is gradually becoming clear."
My note: is this certain, or is it just diagnosed more? Some of the alleged culprits, of course, such as gluten, have been in the human diet for a very long time and were a much more significant portion of the diet in the past, at least for some places and groups. The article focuses just on the past 30 years, which seems inconsistent with many of the proposed causes of this supposed leaking problem. Anyway...
"... The recent increased knowledge on the functions, mechanisms and abnormalities of intestinal permeability and the specific relationship between some common food additives and their deleterious effects on the tight-junction, prompted us to review these observations and put forward the hypothesis that increased intestinal permeability induced by the industrial food additives explains the observed surge in autoimmune disease."
So it's a hypothesis. I would agree it's worth studying and testing. Teaching it as if it's proven and blaming everything on it when there's no evidence in many cases of a so-called "leaky gut" is a problem.
It's also worth noting that the hypothesis looks at foods that are in the diet in greater than prior amounts over the past 30 years, and as such is really general. You'd have to see which of these contributed to so called leaky gut even if it proved to be real (which again this does not support). The foods (and additives or substances one might be exposed to) focused on are: sugar, salts, emulsifiers, organic solvents, gluten (again, I am skeptical of this one for the reasons set forth above), and various other things.
The article then goes through how these items might operate to increase intestinal permeability -- not the same thing as saying autoimmune diseases are caused by "leaky gut" or even that there IS increased intestinal permeability in a particular case. I'd have more respect if the claim was limited to situations where that being a problem was actually diagnosed, which would be a question for a real doctor.
But does it make sense to formulate and test a hypothesis? Sure. The problem is claiming that that means it has been proven or even is particularly likely to be the answer. It's a maybe something worth looking into, which is great for scientists, not great for "holistic practitioners" who pretend to diagnose it and who prescribe a diet based on false pretenses (many different diets, indeed).
And again I think saying "sometimes this helps" is also great, and I'd try an elimination diet if suffering. But asserting false pretenses/more than is known, and teaching things as fact that are not is exactly the problem with what OP is being taught and some such practioners do (often with false tests that find all kinds of things that no real tests would, like parasites and adrenal fatigue and so on, as mentioned above).Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Organic or no, bone broth doesn't CURE anything. It's tasty as an addition to foods. That's precisely the kind of issue I see. Trying dietary changes I think makes sense if you have an illness that might be helped by it, but claiming "cutting out gluten" or "eating only organic" or "cutting out meat" cures whatever long list of diseases (just like the similar "carbs cause illness, so going low carb fixes all diseases" that you get from a different list of practioners -- and not sure which group OP was following -- IS a problem. Diet changes absolutely help some people. I mentioned above that weight loss is often helpful, that my dad (and others) improved his cholesterol from a dietary change, diet changes help with IR/T2D, high blood pressure, so on. Can they help with some autoimmune diseases? I'm sure. I don't even consider this something separate from real medicine, as I'd hope doctors would suggest looking for allergies and other food issues and how diet contributes to health.
My problem with so called holistic practioners is using fake tests to "diagnose" fake illnesses (that the tests do not diagnose) and then pretending like there's a clear cut solution based on a specific diet or supplement or whatever. Often it probably does a little something -- hope helps, placebo effect is real, etc., and maybe you sometimes do end up eating better or eliminating a food that was bad for you specifically, and that's a nice side effect, but it doesn't make what is essentially misleading people okay. Nor spreading woo and contributing to people mistrusting medicine, refusing vaccinations, etc.
I would NOT consider physical therapy "alternative medicine," and no PT I've met would either. (I was prescribed PT by my doctor, and know many others who were.)
It sounds like you are not, what I term, an "absolutist". That's a good thing. Don't get me wrong, I don't buy half the stuff I read on Holistic sites. I suppose I'm different (not by choice) in not believing everything I read in Conventional Journals either.
I was more in your camp until my wife got sick. I'm more open minded now simply because we didn't have any solutions from conventional meds/conventional docs. We tried that for over a year and I ran out of patience.
I also believe in vaccines. I'm certainly not an anti-vaccine person. But I've seen enough with vaccines, too, to think there's some element of truth to what some anti-vaccine people are saying. Believe it or not, not all are crazy whackos. No one seems to want to get the full truth anymore. I personally believe that some people (probably those with MTHFR genetic defects) react more negatively than others to vaccines. What (I think) we'll find out is if they just made sure that those with that defect took methyl b vitamins prior to vaccination, it would be more safe for all taking vaccines.
I don't think they know nearly enough about gut permeability (yet) to come to a conclusive way to treat it. More than gut permeability (or leaky gut), I think that they'll find more solutions with changing the gut microbiome (a completely separate issue) for changing modern medicine. That's where what most would have considered Holistic medicine 10 years ago is meeting Traditional medicine. Large drug makers are addressing the underlying causes instead of just the symptoms. Progress will be slow until projects like the Human Microbiome study are more complete.
I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
Both Holistic MDs that have treated my wife's Fibromyalgia, as kids or young adults, had unexplainable Chronic Pain. They were both told it was "all in your head". Until five or six years ago, Fibro patients were considered my most conventional docs to be psychiatric patients. Perhaps this is where some of the anger I have comes from for the establishment. The arrogance of conventional doctors is at a crazy level. A company has produced a test for Fibromyalgia called the FM/a test. It was a test that was created by a researcher that was actually trying to prove that the biomarkers for Fibromyalgia weren't unique. He was shocked and found a very distinct pattern that proves that Fibro patients have a very unique pattern of Cytokines (I'm not a scientist so I hope I'm accurate on that, though I'm sure I'll be personally attacked on this). Now, nearly every doctor recognizes Fibro as a legit diagnosis but just doesn't know how to treat it. It took a decade to reach this point. That's too long for some. Yes, I'll take some hypothesis as hope and run with it. Guilty! But it beats the alternative watching a loved one die in front of you. So far, the hypotheses that I've ran with have worked. That's proof enough for me and allows me to brush off any criticism I might hear on a weight loss board.
I agree with you that PT is not alternative medicine. That's a prime example, though, of what I'm saying about changing times. Quackwatch (a site often supported by Sciencebasedmedicine.org) once called all of Chiropractic quackery. I certainly don't agree with that. Until people question what's being put out there (and what's their vested interest in things), no real progress will be made.
Traditional medicine has already implemented treatments/screening based on DNA results, so I'm not sure how you have reached the conclusion that the medical community is "dead set against it." Look at breast cancer screening and treatment, for example (I'm sure there are other areas as well -- this is just one that I've read about recently).
Yep, this is what I was talking about earlier in this thread (at least I think it was this thread
) For some reason, people who learn about alternative treatments feel the need to dismiss all of conventional medicine as closed-minded and profit driven. I can only assume they had a bad experience with on e or two crappy doctors and then read something on a FB page and have determined all of conventional medicine is the same. Meanwhile, what they claim is not being taken advantage of in modern medicine is actually happening.
And everyone thinks conventional medicine takes "too long" until some drug gets fast tracked and hurts someone. Then it is rushing for a profit. They can't win.
If someone gets treatment from a doctor, and it doesn't work, they blame the doctor and feel like the healthcare system has let them down.
But if they try some alternative product they bought off someone's website and it doesn't work, it's an "oh well" everyone is different, I guess I just have to try something else.
There are plenty of people out there "questioning". They are in labs and research facilities all over the globe. There are so many new treatments out there for all sorts of things going through patient trials and data studies. The inability of some people to see that for whatever reason is a shame. Reading about all the new trials going on with immunotherapy for cancers and the fascinating work being done toward treating Alzheimers is truly inspiring.11 -
rheddmobile wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »I just wish that more traditional medicine embraced things that potentially could help people, like DNA testing. When 23andme came out, the medical community was dead set against it. It's turning out that some of the research based on this genetic testing has already helped with some new innovations/therapies.
As I understand it, the medical community was against people getting DNA information about heightened risk for certain scary diseases (or less risk) on your own, without medical advice explaining what it means and, in many cases, that it is not a death sentence (slightly higher risk of Alzheimers does not mean "I might as well stop bothering, as I am getting Alzheimers"). I think this makes sense.
I also believe (as janejellyroll pointed out) that DNA screens are used for various things. In other cases, they may not be necessary -- I am at heightened risk of hemochromatosis, as my mother has it, but rather than testing for it they can just test for iron, which they do.
Most things DNA doesn't help much with yet, although it is interesting. I've had a DNA test (for family history) and did some of the medical type screens because I was curious, and it told me some things I already knew (not lactose intolerant) but mostly just somewhat different risk levels or "this gene is thought to be one of various related to this."
Amusingly, one of the things you can do with DNA tests is have it predict your eye color. The prediction for mine was a light-ish blue that looked like my dad's eyes. But mine are green. ;-) It's all quite complex, and that's without getting into something that has a variety of other inputs too (as with things like tendency to gain weight, addiction, etc).
The DNA analysis told me mostly stuff I already knew - that my mom is in no way lactose intolerant despite her claims (after reading the results she finally admitted that she just hates milk, after 80 years of lying about it!), that we carry genes associated with heart disease and obesity, etc.
It's interesting that I also have green eyes and the prediction also missed them, and thought my eyes looked like my blue eyed mother's. I wish I had gotten my dad's DNA before he died - his were like mine but with enough brown to be more hazel than green. It seems that one of the genes they have yet to identify is the one that makes your eyes and mine green!
Fun! Which I think is the point - 23and me and ancestry were not able to show enough good and consistent results to gain approval to get medical info. It's not that it's being kept from us, it's that the results are at this point too sketchy to base anything other than fun personal facts on.
Poor mom, technology ended her charade!
I've been tempted to do one of them for giggles, but I'm hesitant to send something as personal as my DNA to a corporation for no reason. I've seen too many futuristic movies, I guess there's a little tin hat in me as well 5 -
And as someone who lives in a country with nationalised healthcare which, for now at least, is part of the wider EU which also has nationalised healthcare, this notion that all healthcare and big pharma care about is the bottom line is absolute bullpoop. Do you know how much innovation and technological advancement comes out of Europe alone?
More broadly we have Canada, Australia, New Zealand, countless other research leading countries with nationalised healthcare. They are not for profit. It is in fact, in their interests to treat people as swiftly and as effectively as possible in order to keep healthcare costs down and society as healthy as possible (though there are some politics which can get in the way but that's another discussion not relevant to this).
And guess what? Vast majority of conditions are treated in the same way all over the world, insured or nationalised. Go figure. And here in the UK, you cannot access treatment for free that has not proven itself to be of value/effective. And that's most holistic medicine. Again, go figure.
Perhaps when telling others to broaden their horizons it would be helpful if those hell bent on looking inwardly at their own corner of the world and how the healthcare system is used there to denounce western medicine cast their eyes outwards to see what other countries are doing.
Not every system is perfect but if I get cancer I know where I'm going.8
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