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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
TenderBlender667
Posts: 78 Member
in Debate Club
I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning. I've been on mfp for several years and I've learned quite a bit on here, but a lot of the information on mfp contradicts the information I'm learning in school. People think everything from a holistic standpoint is "woo" or BS. Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide. It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer in using nutrition and lifestyle as a way to improve health and manage some chronic health conditions. The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
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Replies
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Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?7
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning. I've been on mfp for several years and I've learned quite a bit on here, but a lot of the information on mfp contradicts the information I'm learning in school. People think everything from a holistic standpoint is "woo" or BS. Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide. It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer in using nutrition and lifestyle as a way to improve health and manage some chronic health conditions. The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
True belief is meaningless. Do they have actual, scientific proof? That's what you should be asking.37 -
There is always a battle between ways of thinking. Western medicine is dismissive of eastern medicine, until they accidentally discover that some root they've been using to treat toothaches in Burma or whathaveyou actually has a provable effect.
Holistic nutrition may not be without its merits, depending on the legitimacy of who is doing the teaching, but the standard scientific method demands are much higher than those of holistic healers.
I'm always open minded to learning about non traditional health and medicine, because i find it interesting, but I won't be using myself as a guinea pig. That being said I totally buy into aromatherapy and I don't know how "proven" that is or anything.35 -
I believe in nutrition and lifestyle to improve health...nutrition and living a healthy, active lifestyle have reversed a lot of medical issues I was having...basically one marker away from full on metabolic syndrome...but we're talking about things like soaring cholesterol, pre-diabetic blood work, hypertension, etc...I've yet to see anything scientific that supports "leaky gut"16
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There are lots of people who believe in Bigfoot and Nessie, but there has yet to be any SOLID proof that either currently exist. But even with actual scientists searching out and trying to get evidence for both, believers will still believe without it.
Now GREAT nutrition is GOOD for health and CAN help with some chronic conditions, but woo with leaky gut and candida are scams IMO due to lack of actual scientific studies that are peer reviewed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on72 -
Show me the empirical evidence for these teachings, otherwise, it's just woo.32
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I'd demand my money back.37
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Yes. I haven't heard of more scammy school since Trump University folded.TenderBlender667 wrote: »I'm 2 months into a holistic nutrition program and I can't help but question some of the things I'm learning. I've been on mfp for several years and I've learned quite a bit on here, but a lot of the information on mfp contradicts the information I'm learning in school. People think everything from a holistic standpoint is "woo" or BS. Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide. It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer in using nutrition and lifestyle as a way to improve health and manage some chronic health conditions. The teachers in my school truly believe that leaky gut syndrome and candida overgrowth are REAL problems, even the one's who've practiced allopathic medicine and have years of education behind then. I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
All of things being taught are either outright made up, or misapplication, misinterpretation, or drastic overstating of real scientific studies and current scientific evidence that sounds sciency enough to be believable to the layperson but doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny by those who are knowledgeable in those fields.
And just because someone studied as a doctor doesn't mean they are infallible or correct. I mean, Dr. Oz exists and is popular FFS...47 -
What school are you going to, and where is it located?
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That might be because many studies are of questionable value.TenderBlender667 wrote: »Even if I provide some scientific evidence, most people still disagree with any information I provide.
Many are simply there to promote an agenda.
Especially in nutrition the better studies only very scarcely actually talk of "Proof". You usually will find expressions like "Results support the thesis ..."
It's either "scientific evidence" or belief. If you know, belief is not required.It's upsetting since I'm a firm believer [...] The teachers in my school truly believe [...].
Probably,I go on mfp and it's the complete opposite of everything I'm learning. Am I being scammed?
but since we lack some information about what exactly you are being taught that is hard to tell.
Go through the world with open eyes and (even more important) mind.
The more the teachers encourage scientific thinking (Scientific Rule #1 being: Question everything your teacher tells you until proven to be correct) the less a scam is likely.
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Maybe you'll be the next Instagram "expert" like David Avocado Wolfe.
But seriously, you're spending money on this.10 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.12 -
In the US the practice of medicine has as it's doctrine what is commonly referred to as EBM (evidence based medicine). In short, this means that clinical practice is dictated by empirical reality which has been proven via scientific experimentation and observation.
MFP, as a whole, tends to follow a similar maxim in that nonsense and unfounded health or medical conjecture is normally met with either skepticism at best, or hostility at worst. IMO, this is exactly how it should be. This should not be a haven for new age lunacy, especially when you consider that peoples lives and/or health could be adversely effected by these types of claims.47 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Here's how science works: a researcher comes up with a hypothesis or set of hypotheses based on observations. The hypothesis must be falsifiable as well as testable - otherwise it's worthless from a research perspective since it can't be shown to be false.
A method is devised to test the hypothesis - this is called an experiment. Variables that could affect the result are identified and controlled for (or a multivariate experiment devised to look at the interaction of variables). When the experiment is finished, the results are published. Then the fun begins: other researchers try to replicate the results and either succeed or fail to do so. They follow the instructions given in the published paper to reproduce the result. Arguments abound. Sometimes errors are found in the method devised -- for example, physicists Pons and Fleishman (sp?) thought they had proved cold fusion exists, but it was later found their methodology was flawed.
The problem is: the media and pseudoscience glom onto sensational results of one study and claim it's "proven" something. Or someone concocts a non-scientific study that is not subject to peer review and claims that's "proof" based on anecdotal evidence. This is a gross misunderstanding of how science is supposed to work - it's a dialog over time, and eventually a consensus is reached when the evidence becomes overwhelming (as is the case with Einstein's theories, for example). One study proves nothing other than a need for additional investigation.
Without this sort of rigor, what you have is a bunch of Just So stories perpetuated in a community like your school where what community members hear are a bunch of like-minded people (often anti-science) who agree with each other. Problem is: when you're talking about health, following a false prophet can result in a worsening of a condition, or death - not just a draining of one's bank account by quackery. And that is the reason why you'll see strong feelings expressed here and elsewhere against woo and BS.74 -
The only holistic approach that may have merit in my view is an intensive review of a person's blood-work including allergy tests then micro-adjusting the person's lifestyle and diet with supplements.
ALL of the subjects you mention have been debunked.
You can still be cautious about your diet and your health. Avoiding misinformation like this requires also a healthy dose of skepticism. There are authoritative sites you can look at for yourself to sift out the truth from belief.
Here's one example. Quick google search.
https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm447204.htm4 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.
So far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like Mercola
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.
So far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like Mercola
Sure sign it's a scam. Sorry.20 -
Unfortunately holistic programs THRIVE on making up health issues that have "correlation" to actual health issues.TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Some of the issues above are legit, but holistic approaches don't normally address them. That's WHY we have science and science nutrition.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Oh dear! That's quite a list of nonsense.
Question everything, demand evidence - real evidence not blogs or opinion pieces or cherry picked snippets taken to confirm a bias.
It's really sad that you are wasting your time and money when you clearly have a passion for nutrition and health.
Maybe bale out of the course while you still have your integrity intact?
It does reinforce the wide gulf between "nutritionists" and actual dietitians.16 -
If you didn't know it, "detoxing" isn't a real thing.TenderBlender667 wrote: »TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.
So far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like Mercola
Use some logic here. If something was "toxic" in the body, that means one is being poisoned. There is NO DIET PROGRAM that removes actual poison, especially if toxicity level is high, from the body. You'd have to go to a poison center for treatment.
Now things can become "toxic" in the body based on dosage. If one over consumed water without replacing sodium to balance it out, then one could get hyponatremia. Again, when something like this happens, you don't usually consort to holistic approaches, but seek medical attention.
The problem here as mentioned above, is that media that journalizes some incidents of health or death, correlate it with whatever it is that seemed to be a factor. Right now it's "sugar" and all the evil it creates in the body. But go to other countries where they don't have obesity issues and guess what? They eat the same sugar we do, just not in quantities that make them overweight or get high blood sugar issues.
Look at what you learn carefully. Don't get hung up on just thinking about what someone is saying and thinking it sounds logical. Especially when it comes to human physiology. Check the information against peer review and then make your decision.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.
So far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like Mercola
I'd be out the door and demanding my money back immediately when I heard them mention MercoLOLa in anything but a derogatory way. He's a tinfoil hat quack.24 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
Can you point us to some of their text material or some lectures online? We will give you some good questions to ask your teachers. If they know what they are talking about, they should be up for answering your questions.
So far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like Mercola
I'd be out the door and demanding my money back immediately when I heard them mention MercoLOLa in anything but a derogatory way. He's a tinfoil hat quack.
This.
That list of things they "believe" in is like a who's who of the most ridiculous made up health issues used to extract money from those looking for a miracle or to treat something they've self diagnosed. These "schools" and nutrition courses should really be regulated.19 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
This is Woo Bingo x10. Holy cow.
What degree are you receiving from this school?21 -
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
You need to ask for your money back, it's all pseudoscienctific nonsense. Seriously what "school" is this?8 -
Do you attend this school, or is it online?1
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The issue with holistic treatments IMO is, the creators of many of these said treatments, largely seem to be on a mission to create their very own version of science.
Unfortunately, said version of science doesn't correlate to the current scientifically proven laws - as such, any life form that was to benefit fully from said laws of new science would have to be anatomically built with this new scientific formula in mind.
Given that humanity hasn't had such a re-vamp, such therapies largely fall into the categories of wishful thinking.
I'm always open to hearing the real scientific reasoning behind things, unfortunately, something being holistic isn't a valid substitute for this.6 -
When you say you can provide scientific evidence, what kind of scientific evidence are you talking about? A study funded by a holistic product company doesn't count. It has to be an unbiased, meticulously planned and executed study done where the results are cross-checked, verified and, most importantly, peer reviewed.
One of the reasons I love MFP is because there are so many skeptical, evidence seeking, rational people on here. I love the non-woo!21 -
SPeaking anecdotally, I started seeing an acupuncturist when I was slowly losing options with Western meds. I was on the right track in regards to finding trigger foods , but still experiencing a lot of stomach discomfort among other things. After a lot of research and questioning, I Decided to see her since she's recognized under the state's Board of Medicine. as the world's biggest skeptic walking into her office the first time, We talked about diet, and she placed Acupuncture needles on me. The next day, before I started the diet or anything else, the discomfort was Completely gone ! It was even better once I started doing the diet and the Stress Management exercises she provided for me. I always ask her a ton of questions about health issues, and she always gives me different perspectives with Western and Eastern approaches. I still use Western meds, but Seeing her was the best thing that's happened to me in regards to my health.
She never gave me woo science nonsense, which is why I respect her. Can't say that about every holistic practitioner unfortunately. these diseases could very well exist, and I'm not going to dissmiss anyone who thinks they have them. But There are people out there trying to profit from all of this. My coworker has been looking into schools for massage therapy. Luckily, she found a good one. Before, she went to an info session at another school, and the chiropractor was telling Prospective students That the way to prescribe supplements for patients is to make them balance the bottles on their hands. If they hold them well, then the supplements are right for them. basically their version of the wand Chooses the wizard! Yikes.
Seeing a Holistic practitioner should be treated as seeing any other professional. Do your research, ask questions, and determine if they're legit and are a good fit for you.
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