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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
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suzannesimmons3 wrote: »im with the thinking that if these things existed and "big pharma" could make a buck or two don't you think they would have.......
And people act like holistic supplement makers are not making tons of money. They're in it for the money too.14 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.
Also a good analogy, and yes, we can be thankful they can't prescribe meds. There have been certain rare situations where modern medicine has intervened with a court order and taken a patient into medical custody when the practices of the deranged endangered a life ("faith healing" cases come to mind), but speaking generally people can make their own decisions on such matters, no matter how medically ill advised.
I'm assuming that happened only in a situation where the patient couldn't provide consent wither due to being underage, incapacitated or mentally deranged and ruled unfit.
Honestly if a consenting adult ends up choosing that route and die of a preventable disease, that is on them. I don't believe the state should intervene. Ability to consent though being the keyword.
Correct, it's been along enough ago not that I do not remember all the particulars, but it did involve a minor and his parents.
And while I agree with you that medicine should not intervene without people's consent, I find it sad we still have occasional outbreaks of long dormant or mostly irradiated illnesses because of the anti-vax crowd.5 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Not practitioners but in Canada there recently was a case where the parents of a young boy refused to get medical care for strep throat in favour of "natural" medicine and the child died. She was found guilty of criminal negligence.
Here's one of many articles
http://www.cbc.ca/1.43011353 -
It was meningitis wasn’t it?
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/naturopath-meningitis-trial-investigation-1.35544681 -
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4legs19 -
It was meningitis wasn’t it?
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/naturopath-meningitis-trial-investigation-1.3554468
Nope separate case but also in Calgary.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »When I go to the doctor, I'm rushed through the system. The whole ordeal takes an hour or more and I get about 20 minutes of personal attention.
Judging from people I know who've been to alternative practitioners, these people spend an hour listening attentively to their patient and saying "I can help."
That's a very powerful placebo, and placebos do work. To an extent anyway. It's very self reinforcing.
This is an excellent point. People may be drawn to holistic medicine because the people who practice it may seem to care more about you personally than a traditional doctor.2 -
- Part of the problem is the arrogance in western medicine.
- Part of the problem is being closed minded.
- Part of the problem is no $$$s for big medicine if they figure out eating a root you can grow yourself for free will cure you of some condition (please take our pills so we can make $$$s, then charge you again for another pill that fixes the side effects of the first pill).
- Finally, part of the problem is some, most, maybe all of it is BS.
While I understand people reluctance to believe anything that isn't backed by the FDA and government funded research, I also find it amazing that these same sheeple use no critical thinking and refuse to consider both sides may be lying for personal gains.
The fact is there isn't a whole lot of research dollars coming in to validate or disprove holistic medical claims, therefore NO scientific evidence/research being done to prove/disprove one way or the other, therefore we all assume it's all hooey.
On the contrary, I find it hard to believe that 'big medicine' WOULDN'T be the first to bottle that *kitten* and sell it to all the people who don't want to bother growing it themselves. Typical americans wouldn't have time/want to do that. There's still money in any cure, and 'big medicine' will find it and use it whether its a lab created drug or a miracle root.6 -
I’ve got an Aunt who believes in this stuff - and I’m constantly rolling my eyes when she launches into one of her diatribes on the evils of the microwave or the horrors of soy.
But I will say this, she’s 70 and she looks like she’s 40. But it’s not because she isn’t getting radiation poisoning from the microwave or a hormonal imbalance from soy. It’s because she cooks every meal from scratch, it’s because she only drinks water because she’s afraid of additives, it’s because she eats tons of local organic seasonal vegetables because she’s afraid of preservatives.
Whatever her fake reasons might be, it boils down to the fact that she eats nutrient dense food, prepared by herself, and drinks tons of water. I see these things supported by nearly everyone on MFP.
If she would just call it what it is, and not go off on the evils of the gluten every time I enjoy a slice of pizza, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.15 -
"Connection between gut micro biome and brain health" is something they taught us in medical school. There are many new papers being released on it. We did not previously know the true connection. Heck years ago we didn't know the gut had it's own nervous system. The gut is the major producer of serotonin so it does have a major intricate relationship with brain health and development. Much of which is still to be discovered. I wouldn't say this was holistic as it has been proven in many research studies and is one of the newest ways of treating diseases.
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.22 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »im with the thinking that if these things existed and "big pharma" could make a buck or two don't you think they would have.......
That's crazy talk. they're only interested in making money.
Oh wait. It could happen that way.1 -
Instead of practicing untested treatments in the hope that some of it might later be vindicated, science based medicine practices proven treatments that have been tested over and over again.
It’s not scorn; it’s healthy skepticism and conservatism. After all anyone who has taken the Hippocratic oath doesn’t want to injure anyone from ignorance.4 -
Its all "woo" until you yourself suffer from one of those conditions and using holistic nutrition and supplements have given you back your health. I had what three traditional gastroenterologists called moderate to severe IBS, I was told there was nothing I could do about it other than take an antispasmodic and just cope. Colonoscopies and CT scans only revealed extremely high amounts of inflammation in my large intestines. I suffered for 10 years until another board certified, Harvard trained gastroenterologist had me tested for candida and "bad" bacterial overgrowth. He didn't sell me any program or any supplements. He put me on a candida diet (very low carb and sugar) and between the diet and prescription and OTC herbal remedies I am now functioning again. I can travel, I can leave my house without fear of being sick. That "woo" figured out a problem that traditional medicine doctors wanted to say was a minor inconvenience and since I didn't have a bowel disease, I just have to learn to cope.31
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Its all "woo" until you yourself suffer from one of those conditions and using holistic nutrition and supplements have given you back your health. I had what three traditional gastroenterologists called moderate to severe IBS, I was told there was nothing I could do about it other than take an antispasmodic and just cope. Colonoscopies and CT scans only revealed extremely high amounts of inflammation in my large intestines. I suffered for 10 years until another board certified, Harvard trained gastroenterologist had me tested for candida and "bad" bacterial overgrowth. He didn't sell me any program or any supplements. He put me on a candida diet (very low carb and sugar) and between the diet and prescription and OTC herbal remedies I am now functioning again. I can travel, I can leave my house without fear of being sick. That "woo" figured out a problem that traditional medicine doctors wanted to say was a minor inconvenience and since I didn't have a bowel disease, I just have to learn to cope.
so yoru board certified, Harvard trained gastroenterologist is a "woo" doctor?
no one here is saying holisitic medicine DOESN'T WORK but that the original descriptions posted by the OP were questionable enough (to include those of us that do use holisitic practices) to shudder a bit5 -
Actually, yeah, some are saying those "woo" methods don't work. They are demanding for peer reviewed research etc. My response was for those folks, clearly not for your if you believe that holistic, non-traditional treatments have value.
And yes, my Harvard trained, board certified doctor uses those "woo" methods to treat his patients. He is the first to admit that traditional medicine scoffs at the idea that nutrition and herbs cannot treat the root cause of the symptoms that other doctors are prescribing RXs to mask those symptoms.
so yoru board certified, Harvard trained gastroenterologist is a "woo" doctor?
no one here is saying holisitic medicine DOESN'T WORK but that the original descriptions posted by the OP were questionable enough (to include those of us that do use holisitic practices) to shudder a bit[/quote]
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and there are "woo" methods that DO NOT work and there are ones that do...no one is arguing that - but those that do, typically do have research to back them up (i.e. willowbark that aspirin is derived from)
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Nobody thought you had a form of IBD if you had extremely high amounts of inflammation in your colon?7
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People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?29 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.13 -
This must be the course they have you take before you move to Sedona.jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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This must be the course they have you take before you move to Sedona.jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, it is out there! Woo1 -
singingflutelady wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »im with the thinking that if these things existed and "big pharma" could make a buck or two don't you think they would have.......
And people act like holistic supplement makers are not making tons of money. They're in it for the money too.
The majority of supplement manufacturers are in fact wholly-owned subsidiaries of pharmaceutical firms. As it requires ~2B USD to take a drug to market firms launch additional indications under the supplement variant of similar drugs to attempt to reach a larger market.
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born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Yes, this. I'm sure there are the occasional things suggested by a holistic practitioner that can help (even if for totally different reasons than the woo given), and I know there are things that medical doctors can't find a cause for still, and things that can't currently be helped by medical means.
But to suggest, as your post does, born_of_fire74, that the two are basically the same, and equally likely to help, and it's all just chance or persona preference ignores the fact that there are many more things where medicine CAN help and does and where not getting medical help can lead to much, much worse problems.
My mom had breast cancer, it was caught early, she had treatment and is still alive with no recurrence 30 years later. If she's not gotten medical treatment, or done alternative only instead, that would not have been the case, period. There are many such examples.
My sister has IBS, and struggled with it for a period of time, with help from a doctor (that was frustrating and seemingly unhelpful for a while) until they worked together to just figure out and identify her trigger foods. Now she's generally fine. Yes, that was what I'd call a holistic approach (and my doctor also uses a holistic approach in that she cares about lifestyle and will test for deficiencies and so on and recommended that I add D3 in the winter), but unlike what we see from "holistic practitioners" (or what the school in question seems to be promoting) the holistic efforts from these real doctors did not involve lying about the condition or making up something to be diagnosed and fixed -- with my sister it was that there are usually trigger foods and it can help to eliminate them, some are common, but also there's a lot of variation.4 -
People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.4 -
Very interesting @CSARdiver . If this is how mortalities are recorded, I imagine old age drugs would get too many hits. Like BP meds, blood thinners, diabetes meds, angina blockers and the like.
I’m hating fentanyl right now.
This shift began just after 1998 and never really changed. The data collected prior to this was reviewed by a medical panel and some manner of causality assessed - e.g. Definitely related, probably related, possibly related, improbably related, not related. This causality defaulted to definite and the burden of proof is on the firm to prove that the adverse event is not related based upon objective evidence. Few firms conduct this analysis anymore. I still do this for internal analysis, but it is not a regulatory requirement.3 -
I wanted to add that I think there is no issue with adding holistic practices along with conventional medicine as long as your doctor knows what you are doing.
Examples are native healing practices being incorporated in a patient's care. I personally prefer chamomile tea over other sleep aids.4 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
You lost me at detox.4 -
This must be the course they have you take before you move to Sedona.jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, it is out there! Woo
Is the live blood testing lab still there? I went as a joke several years ago and saw great video of my "white blood cells eating fat" in a drop of blood. Before the test, the spiel was that if my whites were low, I would need their kidney/liver cleanse. After the test, my white blood cell count was good but the cells were were too big so I needed their kidney/liver cleanse. Which would also jump start a 10/lb a month weight loss. Auto-ship discount=$120 for 3 months supply.1 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
There is a big difference between a regulated substance with known benefits side effects given for a known disease for which the benefit of that substance has been repeatedly documented, or malpractice and misdiagnosis, and unregulated substances with unknown side effects and no proven benefits given by people with no medical knowledge or training for a disease that may or may not exist where the practitioner can't be held accountable and where the incidences can't be documented for further research and to avoid similar issues in the future.4 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »"Connection between gut micro biome and brain health" is something they taught us in medical school. There are many new papers being released on it. We did not previously know the true connection. Heck years ago we didn't know the gut had it's own nervous system. The gut is the major producer of serotonin so it does have a major intricate relationship with brain health and development. Much of which is still to be discovered. I wouldn't say this was holistic as it has been proven in many research studies and is one of the newest ways of treating diseases.
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.
I have been reading the microbiome research with a lot of interest--it is truly fascinating. I think the problem with the woo side of the house is not that it doesn't have potential, but you know there are already holistic practitioners packaging up their poop pills and selling them with no scientific research or control whatsover, and that is a freaking Pandora's box of so many things that could go horribly, horribly wrong. Research comes out saying that thin people have a different biome with a particular strain of bacteria, and it becomes extremely easy to prey on desperate people in a fairly disgusting manner.3
This discussion has been closed.
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