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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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Very interesting @CSARdiver . If this is how mortalities are recorded, I imagine old age drugs would get too many hits. Like BP meds, blood thinners, diabetes meds, angina blockers and the like.
I’m hating fentanyl right now.0 -
The only holistic approach that may have merit in my view is an intensive review of a person's blood-work including allergy tests then micro-adjusting the person's lifestyle and diet with supplements.
ALL of the subjects you mention have been debunked.
You can still be cautious about your diet and your health. Avoiding misinformation like this requires also a healthy dose of skepticism. There are authoritative sites you can look at for yourself to sift out the truth from belief.
Here's one example. Quick google search.
https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm447204.htm
While I agree there is no scientific support for most of those things - has the gut biome thing been debunked? Out of the whole list that is the only one I that I thought still had some scientific support.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I guess I specifically meant paying money for sound common sense advice sandwiched in fringe ideas and imaginary illnesses where you go in for advice about post-antibiotic care and come out with advice about post-antibiotic care (that may or may not be valid) plus a host of other unsubstantiated diagnoses and unnecessary treatments and a lighter wallet.
What you're describing is like a psychiatrist who prescribes medications for a certain issue then encourages the patient to include exercise a few times a week as a prophylactic measure when weaning off the medication if no longer needed. Or someone with a mild case of diarrhea making sure to drink enough water to rehydrate. Sound advice that doesn't involve medications but doesn't come attached with all sorts of pseudoscience and a large bill.
If you meant health supporting non-pharmaceutical practices, then I'm with you. There is nothing wrong with those (as long as they're not fully replacing real medical care or introducing/removing substances for which safety is unknown).lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I would distinguish between the idea of a holistic approach (focusing on lifestyle), which I think is great and few would argue with, and what OP is asking about -- so-called "holistic practitioners" who diagnose things like candida overgrowth or adrenal fatigue or leaky gut that medical doctors don't recognize at all, and that supposedly requires "detox" and a special diet and often some very sketchy and expensive supplements.
Note: by special diet here I don't mean a sensible, healthy diet or focusing on how eating particular ways makes you feel.
Thank you both for explaining. You both explained what I was trying to say much better than I did.
So, basically stuff like ginger tea for nausea instead of OTC meds, but fully intending to see a medical professional if the symptoms don't clear up in a reasonable amount of time. Got it.1 -
I think for some people (not all) they turn to holistic medicine when western medicine fails to cure them (some refuse western medicine all together from the beginning). They may have tried the western medicine approach with no success, and out of desperation/lack of alternatives they try the holistic approach.
I'm not one to shun traditional medicine. I do think antibiotics and other medications are over prescribed as a whole, but they are necessary in many cases. If I exhausted the western medicine practices, I can't say I wouldn't try the holistic approach.
I can't say whether the OP is being scammed or not. Only she can really determine that. I don't think I'd pay for those courses when much of that information seems to be readily available online and reading of books (unless of course she is trying to become "certified").
Yeah this seems totally reasonable to me.0 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I guess I specifically meant paying money for sound common sense advice sandwiched in fringe ideas and imaginary illnesses where you go in for advice about post-antibiotic care and come out with advice about post-antibiotic care (that may or may not be valid) plus a host of other unsubstantiated diagnoses and unnecessary treatments and a lighter wallet.
What you're describing is like a psychiatrist who prescribes medications for a certain issue then encourages the patient to include exercise a few times a week as a prophylactic measure when weaning off the medication if no longer needed. Or someone with a mild case of diarrhea making sure to drink enough water to rehydrate. Sound advice that doesn't involve medications but doesn't come attached with all sorts of pseudoscience and a large bill.
If you meant health supporting non-pharmaceutical practices, then I'm with you. There is nothing wrong with those (as long as they're not fully replacing real medical care or introducing/removing substances for which safety is unknown).lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »I suppose I fall somewhere in the middle as to holistic being able to treat disorders. There are some disorders/illnesses that should be treated with medications/antibiotics. Strep throat for example. Could this be treated holistically? I'm sure it could and has been, but having that holistic remedy fail can lead to serious complications (rhumatic fever etc). A simple course of antibiotics could take care of it.
Those antibiotics can lead to their own set of issues though, such as oral thrush and/or poor gut health due to killing off the good bacteria. In this instance I feel diet and a holistic approach can help this issue of re-establishing the body's balance and normal flora.
If traditional medicine isn't helping a condition, I don't see anything wrong with trying a different approach.
The thing is, you don't need pseudoscience for that (let alone pseudoscience aimed at clearing your pockets). You don't need to be told you have candida overgrowth, which you may not have. There are several species and strains in the gut and the imbalance may have nothing to do with candida, which is the only thing a holistic practitioner would narrowly jump to. I would be interested in research on supplementing with specific probiotics with or after specific antibiotic use and if that could be part of the treatment if there is merit.
Take it from me, and I won't even ask for their asking price ($99.99 should be enough): eat your vegetables and yogurt and you will hopefully be okay in a couple of weeks. And I didn't even need to study chakras to come up with that!
I think I might have mis-understood the way in which "holistic approach" is being used. When I said a holistic approach could be used to restore gut flora, I meant exactly what you described (eating yogurt, fermented foods, probiotics etc). Isn't that considered a holistic approach (seriously asking)?
I would distinguish between the idea of a holistic approach (focusing on lifestyle), which I think is great and few would argue with, and what OP is asking about -- so-called "holistic practitioners" who diagnose things like candida overgrowth or adrenal fatigue or leaky gut that medical doctors don't recognize at all, and that supposedly requires "detox" and a special diet and often some very sketchy and expensive supplements.
Note: by special diet here I don't mean a sensible, healthy diet or focusing on how eating particular ways makes you feel.
Thank you both for explaining. You both explained what I was trying to say much better than I did.
So, basically stuff like ginger tea for nausea instead of OTC meds, but fully intending to see a medical professional if the symptoms don't clear up in a reasonable amount of time. Got it.
Pretty much, yes. I'm all for treating (some) conditions "naturally" but after a reasonable amount of time, or severity warrants it, I'm all for going to the doctor/medical professional.
Case in point: a few years ago I got a case of strep throat. Happened on the weekend so I couldn't get to the doctor until Monday. In the meantime I tried a holistic remedy of gargling with different concoctions etc. Needless to say, it didn't work. By Monday the strep progressed to scarletina/scarlet fever. Needed 2 courses of antibotics to get rid of it...then that lead to oral thrush from the antibiotics. Used a combination of Rx for that and "natural" remedy and diet to clear that up.
So depending on the condition people are trying to treat holistically, I agree that it can be harmful. I think people need to use their best judgment, but often times it is lacking.
I don't think it's bad for people to seek holistic medicine when they've exhausted traditional medicine, but it is harmful when they start with the holistic method and refuse traditional medicine if/when it doesn't work.0 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
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JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.5 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.
Also a good analogy, and yes, we can be thankful they can't prescribe meds. There have been certain rare situations where modern medicine has intervened with a court order and taken a patient into medical custody when the practices of the deranged endangered a life ("faith healing" cases come to mind), but speaking generally people can make their own decisions on such matters, no matter how medically ill advised.2 -
JustRobby1 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.
Also a good analogy, and yes, we can be thankful they can't prescribe meds. There have been certain rare situations where modern medicine has intervened with a court order and taken a patient into medical custody when the practices of the deranged endangered a life ("faith healing" cases come to mind), but speaking generally people can make their own decisions on such matters, no matter how medically ill advised.
I'm assuming that happened only in a situation where the patient couldn't provide consent wither due to being underage, incapacitated or mentally deranged and ruled unfit.
Honestly if a consenting adult ends up choosing that route and die of a preventable disease, that is on them. I don't believe the state should intervene. Ability to consent though being the keyword.2 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »im with the thinking that if these things existed and "big pharma" could make a buck or two don't you think they would have.......
And people act like holistic supplement makers are not making tons of money. They're in it for the money too.14 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.
Also a good analogy, and yes, we can be thankful they can't prescribe meds. There have been certain rare situations where modern medicine has intervened with a court order and taken a patient into medical custody when the practices of the deranged endangered a life ("faith healing" cases come to mind), but speaking generally people can make their own decisions on such matters, no matter how medically ill advised.
I'm assuming that happened only in a situation where the patient couldn't provide consent wither due to being underage, incapacitated or mentally deranged and ruled unfit.
Honestly if a consenting adult ends up choosing that route and die of a preventable disease, that is on them. I don't believe the state should intervene. Ability to consent though being the keyword.
Correct, it's been along enough ago not that I do not remember all the particulars, but it did involve a minor and his parents.
And while I agree with you that medicine should not intervene without people's consent, I find it sad we still have occasional outbreaks of long dormant or mostly irradiated illnesses because of the anti-vax crowd.5 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Not practitioners but in Canada there recently was a case where the parents of a young boy refused to get medical care for strep throat in favour of "natural" medicine and the child died. She was found guilty of criminal negligence.
Here's one of many articles
http://www.cbc.ca/1.43011353 -
It was meningitis wasn’t it?
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/naturopath-meningitis-trial-investigation-1.35544681 -
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4legs19 -
It was meningitis wasn’t it?
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/calgary/naturopath-meningitis-trial-investigation-1.3554468
Nope separate case but also in Calgary.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »When I go to the doctor, I'm rushed through the system. The whole ordeal takes an hour or more and I get about 20 minutes of personal attention.
Judging from people I know who've been to alternative practitioners, these people spend an hour listening attentively to their patient and saying "I can help."
That's a very powerful placebo, and placebos do work. To an extent anyway. It's very self reinforcing.
This is an excellent point. People may be drawn to holistic medicine because the people who practice it may seem to care more about you personally than a traditional doctor.2 -
- Part of the problem is the arrogance in western medicine.
- Part of the problem is being closed minded.
- Part of the problem is no $$$s for big medicine if they figure out eating a root you can grow yourself for free will cure you of some condition (please take our pills so we can make $$$s, then charge you again for another pill that fixes the side effects of the first pill).
- Finally, part of the problem is some, most, maybe all of it is BS.
While I understand people reluctance to believe anything that isn't backed by the FDA and government funded research, I also find it amazing that these same sheeple use no critical thinking and refuse to consider both sides may be lying for personal gains.
The fact is there isn't a whole lot of research dollars coming in to validate or disprove holistic medical claims, therefore NO scientific evidence/research being done to prove/disprove one way or the other, therefore we all assume it's all hooey.
On the contrary, I find it hard to believe that 'big medicine' WOULDN'T be the first to bottle that *kitten* and sell it to all the people who don't want to bother growing it themselves. Typical americans wouldn't have time/want to do that. There's still money in any cure, and 'big medicine' will find it and use it whether its a lab created drug or a miracle root.6 -
I’ve got an Aunt who believes in this stuff - and I’m constantly rolling my eyes when she launches into one of her diatribes on the evils of the microwave or the horrors of soy.
But I will say this, she’s 70 and she looks like she’s 40. But it’s not because she isn’t getting radiation poisoning from the microwave or a hormonal imbalance from soy. It’s because she cooks every meal from scratch, it’s because she only drinks water because she’s afraid of additives, it’s because she eats tons of local organic seasonal vegetables because she’s afraid of preservatives.
Whatever her fake reasons might be, it boils down to the fact that she eats nutrient dense food, prepared by herself, and drinks tons of water. I see these things supported by nearly everyone on MFP.
If she would just call it what it is, and not go off on the evils of the gluten every time I enjoy a slice of pizza, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.15 -
"Connection between gut micro biome and brain health" is something they taught us in medical school. There are many new papers being released on it. We did not previously know the true connection. Heck years ago we didn't know the gut had it's own nervous system. The gut is the major producer of serotonin so it does have a major intricate relationship with brain health and development. Much of which is still to be discovered. I wouldn't say this was holistic as it has been proven in many research studies and is one of the newest ways of treating diseases.
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.22
This discussion has been closed.
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