Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
-
One of the Doctors in the NHS practice where I'm registered, practices Acupuncture and has treated many - including my SiL successfully. I have no idea about the other things mentioned. Zoë Harcombe who has written several successful diet books, talks up the candida overgrowth idea. However, I don't think I'd spend good money learning what could be 99% cods-wallup.2
-
stevencloser wrote: »We have to limit it to "for the same ailment" then. What's the survival rate of cancer patients who only take holistic medicine vs. cancer patients who get actual medic aid?
Or even more narrow - "patients with the same type of cancer". Western medicine has concrete statistics to support the survival rate. But there are no such statistics kept by holistic medicine practitioners (even narrowing it down to those who practice the same holistic principles) to use for comparison, just anecdotal stories of how Aunt Bertha took three different tonics recommended by her naturopath, and her cancer was cured! Western medicine also keeps statistics on spontaneous remission.4 -
stevencloser wrote: »We have to limit it to "for the same ailment" then. What's the survival rate of cancer patients who only take holistic medicine vs. cancer patients who get actual medic aid?
Or even more narrow - "patients with the same type of cancer". Western medicine has concrete statistics to support the survival rate. But there are no such statistics kept by holistic medicine practitioners (even narrowing it down to those who practice the same holistic principles) to use for comparison, just anecdotal stories of how Aunt Bertha took three different tonics recommended by her naturopath, and her cancer was cured! Western medicine also keeps statistics on spontaneous remission.
Hypothetical question I know. But I'm absolutely sure of what the outcome would be, and that's why people need to be harsh with claims of holistic medicine. People's health is on the line.3 -
French_Peasant wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Calliope610 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
I'm curious - what qualifies as a medical error?
And now I wonder what the rate of damage is in holistic medicine.
#of cases where something bad happens from holistic medicine vs. #of people taking it ´
and #of cases where medical aid didn't work out vs #of people taking regular medical aid.
I wonder which would be higher.
I am sure the holistic medical reporting databases are well-integrated, orderly, complete, easily accessible, with clean data. They are committed first and foremost to protecting their patients, right?
Hahah. Pretty much. There is SOME data on non-medical/holistic supplements. Although the FDA is not permitted to regulate non-medicine supplements like they do actual medicine.. however, they do post recalls related to them. Everything from Vitamin C supplements to protein powder to holistic cleanses and 'biotics.' These supplement recalls are most commonly for unlisted active ingredients (diet pills/cleanses often end up on the shelf containing illegal substances like sibutramine) or because they contain glass fragments from manufacturing, incorrect pills, particulate, or unlisted allergens (milk, nuts, processed in seafood factory, etc). Yes, medicines have recalls too, ALL the time. They also have inspections, sterile facilities, and their recalls are more commonly of the, "Lack of sterility assurance" and "below efficacy standards."4 -
smithmssycatsmithiris30 wrote: »One of the Doctors in the NHS practice where I'm registered, practices Acupuncture and has treated many - including my SiL successfully. I have no idea about the other things mentioned. Zoë Harcombe who has written several successful diet books, talks up the candida overgrowth idea. However, I don't think I'd spend good money learning what could be 99% cods-wallup.
I have never seen, thank glob, but apparently there's one in my (NHS) practice who has gone full potato on alternative treatments and is forever pushing them on patients. There are a few who speak positively of him but most come out thinking WTF just happened. I guess people don't realise they can complain and report because I don't see how it's okay!2 -
The danger in using patient satisfaction as a measure of performance.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/the-problem-with-satisfied-patients/390684/
I think transparency is key to seeing improvement in health care.
https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Caring-for-Quality-in-Health-Final-report.pdf3 -
Some odd logic is going on here.
Some marriages break apart despite marriage counseling
Some marriages break apart after consulting a black magic practitioner
Therefore, the MFP voodoo marriage spammer is comparable to marriage counseling because some marriages may have pulled through after burying chicken feet under an oak tree.11 -
Wait, there's a voodoo marriage spammer?2
-
I realize I've probably created an issue where there is none here by conflating holistic and alternative medicine. If so, I apologize for my strawman. It's just that I don't often observe much differentiation between the types of alternative medicine.
A variety of people in my environment benefit from alternative medicine. My hairdresser who struggled for years with a PCOS/thyroid diagnosis has finally found relief through a blood-type diet (of all things) despite trying a host of prescription medications prior to that. A mechanic I work with was rear-ended on his motorcycle and now gets terrible headaches that are only relieved by acupuncture despite having a host of medications available to him. My husband finds relief in acupuncture that he can't achieve through pharmaceuticals as well. I manage a back injury and have avoided surgery through a combination of chiropractic, massage therapy and yoga with only extremely sparing use of pain killers and muscle relaxants.
I fully acknowledge that holistic medicine is unlikely to cure cancer but there can be relief for other conditions and there are a variety of alternative treatments out there.14 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »I realize I've probably created an issue where there is none here by conflating holistic and alternative medicine. If so, I apologize for my strawman. It's just that I don't often observe much differentiation between the types of alternative medicine.
A variety of people in my environment benefit from alternative medicine. My hairdresser who struggled for years with a PCOS/thyroid diagnosis has finally found relief through a blood-type diet (of all things) despite trying a host of prescription medications prior to that. A mechanic I work with was rear-ended on his motorcycle and now gets terrible headaches that are only relieved by acupuncture despite having a host of medications available to him. My husband finds relief in acupuncture that he can't achieve through pharmaceuticals as well. I manage a back injury and have avoided surgery through a combination of chiropractic, massage therapy and yoga with only extremely sparing use of pain killers and muscle relaxants.
I fully acknowledge that holistic medicine is unlikely to cure cancer but there can be relief for other conditions and there are a variety of alternative treatments out there.
i would argue there is a different between acupunture and the blood type diet. Acupuncture/chiro/massage therapy are documented as being helpful for certain conditions (there are studies to support the efficacy)...the blood type diet is woo - there is no data that even say its a legit diet (in fact, several of us on the boards who if we were to eat according to diet would have severe medical issues)6 -
deannalfisher wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »I realize I've probably created an issue where there is none here by conflating holistic and alternative medicine. If so, I apologize for my strawman. It's just that I don't often observe much differentiation between the types of alternative medicine.
A variety of people in my environment benefit from alternative medicine. My hairdresser who struggled for years with a PCOS/thyroid diagnosis has finally found relief through a blood-type diet (of all things) despite trying a host of prescription medications prior to that. A mechanic I work with was rear-ended on his motorcycle and now gets terrible headaches that are only relieved by acupuncture despite having a host of medications available to him. My husband finds relief in acupuncture that he can't achieve through pharmaceuticals as well. I manage a back injury and have avoided surgery through a combination of chiropractic, massage therapy and yoga with only extremely sparing use of pain killers and muscle relaxants.
I fully acknowledge that holistic medicine is unlikely to cure cancer but there can be relief for other conditions and there are a variety of alternative treatments out there.
i would argue there is a different between acupunture and the blood type diet. Acupuncture/chiro/massage therapy are documented as being helpful for certain conditions (there are studies to support the efficacy)...the blood type diet is woo - there is no data that even say its a legit diet (in fact, several of us on the boards who if we were to eat according to diet would have severe medical issues)
Just like Chiro is great for shoulder/back/neck pain/disfunction, less good for digestive issues.1 -
Putting up the blood type diet as something promoted by holistic practitioners actually managed to make me think worse of them, which I would not have thought possible.
Changing your diet can help and it can be that the blood type diet recommended was healthier than how the person was eating or coincidentally cut out something that was bad for the person (sensitivity or some such), but to claim there's some scientific backing to the diet is really just the worst, so if that's the kind of thing a holistic practitioner does, ugh.
I don't actually think negatively of acupuncture or massage therapy at all, nor (of course) yoga (which is not the same thing anyway).
I'm talking about diagnosing conditions (like adrenal fatigue) that aren't real and prescribing things like a "detox" as a cure. On the other hand, often when people think they have adrenal fatigue they are suffering from chronic stress or undersleeping or the like and lifestyle changes can (of course) help a lot. Just don't lie about what's going on and definitely don't discourage people from getting actual medical care for diagnosed conditions with medical treatment (strep, cancer, so on) or tell them vaccines are bad or the rest of the "holistic" nonsense that I think is dangerous.
Since OP is not talking about a treatment she is enjoying, but considering spending money to learn a bunch of nonsense (with perhaps some good stuff included too) and to encourage others to spend money on such things, yeah, I think it's worth expressing an opinion.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Some odd logic is going on here.
Some marriages break apart despite marriage counseling
Some marriages break apart after consulting a black magic practitioner
Therefore, the MFP voodoo marriage spammer is comparable to marriage counseling because some marriages may have pulled through after burying chicken feet under an oak tree.
Just break up.5 -
deannalfisher wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)
These people would be failing the "and healthy" part of my equation.
Where I live, there is NO legal basis to force the non-institutionalized mentally ill to take their medication as prescribed. If we're not going to force people of certifiably diminished mental capacity to take medication they don't want to, then we certainly can't force people to undergo other forms of treatment, can we? The only reason those cases are of note is that the parents perpetrated something upon their children.
Self-determination is a basic human right, even when it results in self-harm. Adult people decide to compromise their health each and every day and there's nothing any of us can do about it aside from specific, strict circumstances that certainly don't amount to you disagreeing with their ideas about what constitutes legitimate medical treatment.
*missed a very important "NO"
1 -
There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.11 -
Heck, dentists don't routinely use general anesthetic in Canada, either. Which makes me question the dentist under scrutiny right now.
I don't understand the comment about legally forcing the mentally ill to take their medication. Does your country require it or not?
There's such a thing as informed consent. Every person has a right to be fully informed of the consequences of their treatment. If a woo peddler makes outrageous claims, they can be called in to account/sued/decertified.
Hence the popularity of personal accounts and testimonials (woo peddler says "I didn't make these claims; my satisfied customers did.")
Hence the popularity of hair growth and weight loss aids (nobody dies).2 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)
These people would be failing the "and healthy" part of my equation.
Where I live, there is legal basis to force the non-institutionalized mentally ill to take their medication as prescribed. If we're not going to force people of certifiably diminished mental capacity to take medication they don't want to, then we certainly can't force people to undergo other forms of treatment, can we? The only reason those cases are of note is that the parents perpetrated something upon their children.
Self-determination is a basic human right, even when it results in self-harm. Adult people decide to compromise their health each and every day and there's nothing any of us can do about it aside from specific, strict circumstances that certainly don't amount to you disagreeing with their ideas about what constitutes legitimate medical treatment.
I agree. I will be vocal in my opposition to "alternative" treatments that have not been shown to be effective at all that some might go to in place of conventional treatments that do have proof of efficacy. I will not, however, support legislation or laws that would require consenting adults to take a particular treatment over another. If people want to convince themselves in the magical properties of whatever then that is their prerogative. If given the chance I'd try to talk them out of it but it would be inappropriate to apply force.
The fact people die because of this is shameful but I am unwilling to compromise on my principles in terms of freedoms of consenting adults.6 -
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.
Do you know what they call holistic or alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine.
-Tim Minchin15 -
NSFW but sums up my feelings on "holistic" "alternative" "homeopathic" medicine pretty well as well as the reason why at points I can't help but speak out about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk6 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.17
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393K Introduce Yourself
- 43.7K Getting Started
- 260.1K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.8K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 415 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.9K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.6K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.5K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions