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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
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lisawolfinger wrote: »I have not practiced Holistic aspects in my life but believe any approach that speaks to a persons and their health and well being is a personal choice that should be respected. All our bodies have a unique set of genetics and that alone means a unique set of health needs.
I cant help but wonder...
1. How would we classify medicine practiced by Native Americans past and those still doing it presently?
2. If detox is not a thing...what happens with Alcoholics and Drug Abusers when they go clean? (is that not a cleansing of chemicals many of us consume but is toxic to them?)
3. If Western Medicine is so on point, why so much ongoing research? Wouldn't the nature of that indicate we don't know how every thing that goes into our bodies affects us?
I am not saying one way or the other that Holistic medicine is or not appropriate for all people. Just as our bodies are unique, so are our minds, experiences and exposures to situations. That ALL plays a role on the journey our life takes. Modern medicine/ Oncologist cant even agree on the one right way to treat a cancer. What makes anyone think there is one right way to treat our bodies---unless it is the concept of respected your body in the best way you know.
I also get frustrated when a passion for the life style a person embraces crosses the line to being rude, insulting and ugly. How has that ever convinced someone to embrace your idea or sway them to your side? Instead, it accomplishes the opposite. Everything can be stated in a professional adult way. Telling someone their beliefs or values are nonsense, ridiculous or made up are harsh. There are better ways to state your own thoughts without trigger words like that.
For sure this post will get woo'd...and that's OK. Basically I don't know any of you and your influence through MFP will not impact me or my life in anyway. Nor will my post impact you...and that's OK.
But I do hope that at least one of you will consider the concept speaking your personal belief system without trashing another's. Some of these threads remind me of a bunch of school yard bullies....and I think their is a nation wide promotion to stamp that out.
When people say "detox is not a thing," they're not talking about the necessary detox that is undergone by alcoholics and drug abusers, people who have to recover from a chemical dependency to specific substances because they have been taking long-term doses that are much larger than what the average person is taking and usually over a long period of time.
They're two completely different situations.
If you're exposed to radiation or mercury, you may also require medical assistance to detoxify, but that doesn't mean that someone needs to "detox" if they're used to eating pizza and Mountain Dew.13 -
I used to work in the file room of the pesticide chemicals branch of a government department. There are monographs on how to treat poisonings from any kind of chemical you can imagine. Sometimes a purgative is in order. Sometimes a purgative would make the problem far worse (ripping up the insides). Very often an activated charcoal concoction will neutralize the substance.
So it kind of gave me a perspective about what toxins and poisons really are. Hint, it's not sugar.12 -
lisawolfinger wrote: »I have not practiced Holistic aspects in my life but believe any approach that speaks to a persons and their health and well being is a personal choice that should be respected. All our bodies have a unique set of genetics and that alone means a unique set of health needs.
I cant help but wonder...
1. How would we classify medicine practiced by Native Americans past and those still doing it presently?
2. If detox is not a thing...what happens with Alcoholics and Drug Abusers when they go clean? (is that not a cleansing of chemicals many of us consume but is toxic to them?)
3. If Western Medicine is so on point, why so much ongoing research? Wouldn't the nature of that indicate we don't know how every thing that goes into our bodies affects us?
I am not saying one way or the other that Holistic medicine is or not appropriate for all people. Just as our bodies are unique, so are our minds, experiences and exposures to situations. That ALL plays a role on the journey our life takes. Modern medicine/ Oncologist cant even agree on the one right way to treat a cancer. What makes anyone think there is one right way to treat our bodies---unless it is the concept of respected your body in the best way you know.
I also get frustrated when a passion for the life style a person embraces crosses the line to being rude, insulting and ugly. How has that ever convinced someone to embrace your idea or sway them to your side? Instead, it accomplishes the opposite. Everything can be stated in a professional adult way. Telling someone their beliefs or values are nonsense, ridiculous or made up are harsh. There are better ways to state your own thoughts without trigger words like that.
For sure this post will get woo'd...and that's OK. Basically I don't know any of you and your influence through MFP will not impact me or my life in anyway. Nor will my post impact you...and that's OK.
But I do hope that at least one of you will consider the concept speaking your personal belief system without trashing another's. Some of these threads remind me of a bunch of school yard bullies....and I think their is a nation wide promotion to stamp that out.
Many of the posters in this thread have spoken their beliefs without trashing other people. Many in this thread have also directed their ire at this school and its teachings rather than at the OP. I don't know who you're directing this post to but I always find it ironic when the person calling for civility devolves to name calling. And that's exactly what calling grown adults "bullies" is. Bullying has a specific definition. It is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. Between adults, it's called harassment, not bullying. If you're going to trash everyone on a thread, you could at least not feed into diluting a word like bullying.18 -
diannethegeek wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »I’m not sure where I said anything about criminalization. Please point that out. Chiropractic, massage and acupuncture are all de-listed services that standard provincial health care doesn’t pay for. Some people with additional health insurance can have coverage but everyone else pays out of pocket for it. This means it is not as available as traditional, western medicine and is what I meant when I said western medicine proponents actively limit access to alternative health care.
I fully admitted that I’ve brought in a straw man to this discussion, based on previous discussions I’ve had with the anti-woo crowd. The trouble is that it’s difficult to know what is woo and what is not as it changes depending on who you are talking to. At this point, we’ve established that some alternative medicine is not woo to some of you. That’s great. But this thread is also full of people telling the OP that she will be preying upon sick people if she pursues other types of alternative medicines. And this is another way in which people are trying to prevent others from having access to alternative medicine. If no one goes to school to be a chiropractor, a massage therapist, an acupuncturist, a holistic whatever the hell OP wants to be[/], there will not be anyone to offer to those services to the adult people who want to access them.
Please do continue to take my comments to their limits of absurdity though or simply gloss over the inconvenient parts; such classy debate.
But the OP isn't studying to be an acupuncturist or a chiropractor. They've given us the name of the school and some of the specific things they're worried about:Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and onSo far, the textbook they've based a lot of their information on is "The Basics of Nutrition" by Elson Haas. Unfortunately they don't give us access to powerpoints or lecture notes. They promote websites like pubmed which is good.. But then they also support people like MercolaI'm studying at the Canadian School of Natural Nutrition.
The school doesn't seem to teach acupuncture or chiropractic care based on a quick look at their course descriptions, so I'm not sure why this post keeps getting pulled in that direction (it hasn't been just you. It keeps happening). It feels like some of us are replying to the OP's specific situation and others are replying to the topic of holistic healing as a whole and it's creating a disconnect between posters.
I've mentioned acupuncture and chiropractic care specifically to respond to born_of_fire74 and would agree those are different (when used properly, of course) to the kinds of things OP was talking about.
I think claiming that insurance not being mandated to cover them = making them unavailable is wrong.
This was an issue with ACA, because chiropractic was not required to be covered, but states were given flexibility to choose to require them (mine did require coverage for chiropractic): https://www.healthinsurance.org/faqs/are-visits-to-the-chiropractor-or-physical-therapist-covered-under-the-affordable-care-act/
I would agree that has nothing to do with OP's topic and apologize for getting sucked in, but I did think that was an important distinction to be made.
born_of_fire74's argument seems to be that if someone finds it helpful it is the equivalent of medical care, whether acupuncture or massage therapy (which I personally believe can be helpful and there is research supporting that) or whether it's the blood type diet. She then identified the thread as people not wanting insurance to cover these things, so that's why I wonder how far she would go in having insurance cover treatments such as "detoxes" or "nutritionists" (non-accredited) prescribing the blood type diet.0 -
clicketykeys wrote: »My specific mention of NOT wanting to criminalize non-peer-reviewed therapies was in response to the assertion by @born_of_fire74 that "the anti-woo crowd" is "trying to prevent alternative medicine from being an option."
I would like to know what they were referring to, if not legal status.
I think one is already in trouble in a debate/discussion when using a phrase like "the anti-woo crowd". (And I'm not singling out the poster you mentioned, as folks on both sides of the question have used it here.)
Making generalized, abstract propositions about large, amorphous groups is not just substandard debate, it's fuzzy reasoning. The propositions can't be true (or false) because they don't refer to anything clearly defined. It's not as if there's an International Anti-Woo Crowd Association we can turn to for the crowd's purported definitive opinions.
And before anyone says it's just convenient shorthand: "Some anti-woo people" isn't much more typing, but it's lots better reasoning. Heck, go for "most", if you want to.
(@clicketykeys, I'm not trying to hijack your very good question. I quoted your post to make my point because it refers to the term "anti-woo crowd", but doesn't use it. I didn't want to seem to attack an individual.)1 -
stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Um, yes....yes you most certainly can. Natural extracts are extracts, meaning there was an extraction, an extraction is a process, you can patent processes. You can't patent willow bark but you certainly could patent a natural extract from willow bark. The nature (no pun intended) quality and purity of the extract will be specific and unique to the process.
I'd love to see an example of that.
That sounds perfectly sensible to me. But then I've been fortunate enough to not have to watch my child have seizures and what I've read seems to suggest those parents who have found it to work already tried all known options. They aren't using it as an "alternative remedy" but rather, the best remedy. And here is where we have the disconnect with modern medicine. Science is great. But very few people are putting money into science for the glory of science itself. So, until someone decides to put the time and money into running the clinical trials required. Those parents will commit a federal crime in pursuit of helping their children in the best way they know of.Aaron_K123 wrote: »Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
Honestly i'd probably tell them exactly what you said, that it doesn't have a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence and has not shown to be effective. If they want to use it anyway I'm not going to stop them but I might suggest that they look into what seizure medicines HAVE been clinically tested and shown to be effective and that they might want to at least try those first. I mean, that is sensible right?
Don't get me wrong. I think legality of substances is a huge other topic that really isn't part of this discussion. But Cannabis just happens to be an excellent example of something that is working for many people. And with no support from western medicine. Because Western medicine is bound by it's own bureaucracy.
Do I want people to have safe drugs that work and have been tested and vetted in a scientifically sound manner.. Yes. Do I think people who have days/weeks/months to live should be able to try experimental drugs, lotions, potions or voodoo? Definitely. I'm not saying anything bad about western medicine. I'm simply saying it is silly to even suggest that anything not covered by it is automatically hokum. Because Western medicine is a big business that by it's own admission, does not have all the answers and is discovering new things every day.
There are currently 259 NDA products with natural extracts as an API.
FDA/CDER - has a searchable and public database.3 -
Why do you care what the people on here think? Personally, I buy into things that are proven by science, not what someone believes but if you, as you say, are "a firm believer" in it that should be good enough for you.2
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TenderBlender667 wrote: »YvetteK2015 wrote: »What school are you going to, and where is it located?
I'm studying at the Canadian School of Natural Nutrition. I am aware that this is not the best way to educate myself on Nutrition and I'm very aware of the difference between a dietitian and nutritionist. If I had the option, I definitely would've chosen to go the dietitian way, but I don't have that option right now. What led me to this area of study is the fact that I've always been skeptical of some of the treatment methods followed by western medical doctors.
I grew up with a myriad of health issues that worsened after following a standard american diet and being extremely stressed in my day-to-day life. After going to multiple doctors who prescribed me the same medication each time I went in, I developed horrible side effects and hip/joint pain at the age of 15. I decided to go off all meds, and the hip pain magically disappeared. A few years later, while doing some research, I find that the medication I was taking was linked to reduced absorption of calcium and increased risk of bone fractures. Fast forward 1 year, I did some blood tests and I find out I'm severely deficient in vitamin b12. The doctor who is supposed to care about a patient's health didn't even bother to give me b12 shots so I had to go find someone else to do it for me or take heavy doses of oral b12 myself which gave me unpleasant effects. I did some research once again because it didn't make sense that a teenager who's never been vegan her whole life would be deficient in a nutrient the body doesn't need much of to begin with. Coincidentally I found a link between the medication I was taking and Anemia. This is all anecdotal evidence so obviously there might have been other factors coming into play when I went off the medication such as my poor diet or lack of physical activity.
The fatalities and side effects of various drugs are under-reported. Pharmaceutical companies as well as the food industry pays big money to keep information hidden from the public. The long term effects of certain food, drug, and environmental agents have not been reported YET because we're still in the relatively early stages of exposure. We'll need at least another 20 years to conclude that certain chemicals are indeed carcinogenic or produce autoimmune responses in the body. I'm not saying western medicine is the source of all evils. They've saved millions of people and increased the general life span of the population. I just wish they were more open minded about nutrition's role in health and cared about their patients more rather than giving an antibiotic prescription for every ache and pain or just sending you off with these wonderful words: "If you feel like dying, just go to the hospital." This is literally what one doctor told me instead of giving me advice on how to avoid that situation. I've decided I'm probably better off taking control of my own health.
You've already determined they outcome and will ignore what research has said and will say and will keep adding "We just don't know yet" because no amount of time will satisfy you unless you have the desired result.
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Medicine (holistic and every other kind) has always been big money because when people are desperate, they will pay. Except maybe in communist countries. But of course then the public had to worry if the service were available at all.0
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goldthistime wrote: »Not sure if I've told this story before on here, but last year a friend who had cancer got advice from someone who persuaded her to follow a juice diet. Her tumour had shrunk in half after starting a new chemo treatment and this new diet, and she didn't want to take the chance that it was the diet rather than the chemo, so carried on with this juice diet. She was advised to add a little avocado for fat and nuts for protein and was about to start having bone broth soup for "added protein" when she died. She starved to death. The whole thing was horrendous to watch and is painful to think about still. It left me with a very bad attitude towards holistic medicine.
OP I don't know if you're still reading this thread or if you've had to protect your investment in your education by ignoring the majority of posts, but I hope you find a different career path.
My aunt did the same thing.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about its use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
edit: People would just rather smoke MJ most of the time. It's why the market for edibles is so much smaller than the market for smokable products. If people really cared about treating an actual illness it shouldn't matter that the form it takes is a regulated, dosage controlled, squishy little white gel cap. I live in the Bay Area, SF and it's always amazing the claims your average pot head has for the healing properties of weed. Everything from toe fungus to cancer... which is interesting, because someone I know who has been a wake and bake hippy their entire life just got diagnosed with lung cancer. I respect people more that just admit they want to toke to have fun and not because they have a medical card for their cat hair allergy.6 -
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suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.4 -
jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
That's odd because in my experience, the ill and suffering people I would appreciate the option to address their symptoms without the "head change." There are people who are actively seeking options that involve less of the "traditional" impacts of cannabis right now, just look up research on high CBD (cannabidiol) strains. These aren't theoretical future developments -- people are working on them now and people are using them.
Consider children, for example. Or people with certain jobs or people who just don't like being high. Or even people who like being high, but want it to be a choice for recreation, not required to address their serious illness.
Honestly, the idea that all these people are just seeking ways to get high . . . it's insulting.12 -
This surprises me. My Blue Cross/Blue Shield health insurance plan pays for chiropractic treatment. I can even self-refer.
My BCBS plan here in Illinois paid for a year and a half of chiropractic treatment, including massage therapy. Medicare (which I just signed up for) also pays for medically necessary chiropractic treatment.1 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
So basically you're learning lies and how to con people out of money.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
That's odd because in my experience, the ill and suffering people I would appreciate the option to address their symptoms without the "head change." There are people who are actively seeking options that involve less of the "traditional" impacts of cannabis right now, just look up research on high CBD (cannabidiol) strains. These aren't theoretical future developments -- people are working on them now and people are using them.
Consider children, for example. Or people with certain jobs or people who just don't like being high. Or even people who like being high, but want it to be a choice for recreation, not required to address their serious illness.
Honestly, the idea that all these people are just seeking ways to get high . . . it's insulting.
I'm sure there are. I didn't say "all" people. What I did say is "I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product.." Have you been to a medical marijuana dispensary? I have and do you know what strains are the most popular and the most expensive? The strains with the highest content of THC and the ones marketed to get you the "highest".
It's all a moot point here in California now anyhow, as recreational use has been legalized. I admit it is all anecdotal evidence on my part. It's what I've seen in my life and around me in my area. I'm sure, there are plenty of exceptions.5 -
lisawolfinger wrote: »I have not practiced Holistic aspects in my life but believe any approach that speaks to a persons and their health and well being is a personal choice that should be respected.
I agree if by "respected" you mean there should be no creation of laws that would force consenting adults to take any specific type of treatment. I think it is important that the law respects the freedom of consenting adults to make their own choices as long as those choices don't harm other people.
I disagree however if by "respected" you mean that just because someone believes something you should respect that belief or you are being impolite. No, no one just gets automatic respect...if they did then "respect" would be an empty meaningless concept. Respect is earned, not given freely, otherwise it has no worth. If someone has some beliefs I consider to be misguided or dopey then I see no reason why I should be compelled to "respect" them or censor my own thoughts on that matter should the topic come up or I be asked my opinion in their presence.
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jseams1234 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
That's odd because in my experience, the ill and suffering people I would appreciate the option to address their symptoms without the "head change." There are people who are actively seeking options that involve less of the "traditional" impacts of cannabis right now, just look up research on high CBD (cannabidiol) strains. These aren't theoretical future developments -- people are working on them now and people are using them.
Consider children, for example. Or people with certain jobs or people who just don't like being high. Or even people who like being high, but want it to be a choice for recreation, not required to address their serious illness.
Honestly, the idea that all these people are just seeking ways to get high . . . it's insulting.
I'm sure there are. I didn't say "all" people. What I did say is "I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product.." Have you been to a medical marijuana dispensary? I have and do you know what strains are the most popular and the most expensive? The strains with the highest content of THC and the ones marketed to get you the "highest".
It's all a moot point here in California now anyhow, as recreational use has been legalized. I admit it is all anecdotal evidence on my part. It's what I've seen in my life and around me in my area. I'm sure, there are plenty of exceptions.
and its moot for me because even though I don't personally smoke or use marijuana I certainly don't care if other adults decide to and I don't think it should be against the law.1 -
jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about its use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
edit: People would just rather smoke MJ most of the time. It's why the market for edibles is so much smaller than the market for smokable products. If people really cared about treating an actual illness it shouldn't matter that the form it takes is a regulated, dosage controlled, squishy little white gel cap. I live in the Bay Area, SF and it's always amazing the claims your average pot head has for the healing properties of weed. Everything from toe fungus to cancer... which is interesting, because someone I know who has been a wake and bake hippy their entire life just got diagnosed with lung cancer. I respect people more that just admit they want to toke to have fun and not because they have a medical card for their cat hair allergy.
Pure speculation, but as an aging past-times hippie ( ), I'd speculate that some people might get a pain relief effect if they are the type of person who tends to perseverate or otherwise over-focus on their pain sensations.
I have a couple of friends who focus/perseverate in that way, sometimes with fairly minor pains, and I'm pretty sure they experience more or sharper pain than those of us who are more distracted or able to put that focus aside.
As an old hand, I'm pretty sure you know the typical effect of some marijuana derivatives on focus and distraction. 1 -
This is a great discussion but I wanted to note that I didn't mean to derail the thread debating the use of marijuana in medical treatments. I was just pointing out that yes, "big pharma" has no problem extracting what may or may not be effective components of plants used in holistic and alternative medical practices and bringing them into mainstream medicine if they think they can make a buck.
eta: I probably should have searched harder for something yawn-worthy as an example
3 -
jseams1234 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
That's odd because in my experience, the ill and suffering people I would appreciate the option to address their symptoms without the "head change." There are people who are actively seeking options that involve less of the "traditional" impacts of cannabis right now, just look up research on high CBD (cannabidiol) strains. These aren't theoretical future developments -- people are working on them now and people are using them.
Consider children, for example. Or people with certain jobs or people who just don't like being high. Or even people who like being high, but want it to be a choice for recreation, not required to address their serious illness.
Honestly, the idea that all these people are just seeking ways to get high . . . it's insulting.
I'm sure there are. I didn't say "all" people. What I did say is "I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product.." Have you been to a medical marijuana dispensary? I have and do you know what strains are the most popular and the most expensive? The strains with the highest content of THC and the ones marketed to get you the "highest".
It's all a moot point here in California now anyhow, as recreational use has been legalized. I admit it is all anecdotal evidence on my part. It's what I've seen in my life and around me in my area. I'm sure, there are plenty of exceptions.
You said the "majority" and I said that didn't match my experience at all. Maybe you are fortunate enough to know fewer ill people. If so, that's a good thing for you!3 -
This is a great discussion but I wanted to note that I didn't mean to derail the thread debating the use of marijuana in medical treatments. I was just pointing out that yes, "big pharma" has no problem extracting what may or may not be effective components of plants used in holistic and alternative medical practices and bringing them into mainstream medicine if they think they can make a buck.
eta: I probably should have searched harder for something yawn-worthy as an example
Well...yeah. I mean, of course. I was just confused because it seemed like the implication was that that was somehow bad but I might have read into it.
But I'd agree it has sort of gotten derailed maybe its best to shelve it.0 -
jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about its use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
edit: People would just rather smoke MJ most of the time. It's why the market for edibles is so much smaller than the market for smokable products. If people really cared about treating an actual illness it shouldn't matter that the form it takes is a regulated, dosage controlled, squishy little white gel cap. I live in the Bay Area, SF and it's always amazing the claims your average pot head has for the healing properties of weed. Everything from toe fungus to cancer... which is interesting, because someone I know who has been a wake and bake hippy their entire life just got diagnosed with lung cancer. I respect people more that just admit they want to toke to have fun and not because they have a medical card for their cat hair allergy.
Pure speculation, but as an aging past-times hippie ( ), I'd speculate that some people might get a pain relief effect if they are the type of person who tends to perseverate or otherwise over-focus on their pain sensations.
I have a couple of friends who focus/perseverate in that way, sometimes with fairly minor pains, and I'm pretty sure they experience more or sharper pain than those of us who are more distracted or able to put that focus aside.
As an old hand, I'm pretty sure you know the typical effect of some marijuana derivatives on focus and distraction.
Good point. I hadn't considered that aspect.
1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »This is a great discussion but I wanted to note that I didn't mean to derail the thread debating the use of marijuana in medical treatments. I was just pointing out that yes, "big pharma" has no problem extracting what may or may not be effective components of plants used in holistic and alternative medical practices and bringing them into mainstream medicine if they think they can make a buck.
eta: I probably should have searched harder for something yawn-worthy as an example
Well...yeah. I mean, of course. I was just confused because it seemed like the implication was that that was somehow bad but I might have read into it.
But I'd agree it has sort of gotten derailed maybe its best to shelve it.
Yeah I was responding to something about big pharma suppressing the truth about effective holistic medicines because there's no money in it. Pages back. Apologies to everyone.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »This is a great discussion but I wanted to note that I didn't mean to derail the thread debating the use of marijuana in medical treatments. I was just pointing out that yes, "big pharma" has no problem extracting what may or may not be effective components of plants used in holistic and alternative medical practices and bringing them into mainstream medicine if they think they can make a buck.
eta: I probably should have searched harder for something yawn-worthy as an example
Well...yeah. I mean, of course. I was just confused because it seemed like the implication was that that was somehow bad but I might have read into it.
But I'd agree it has sort of gotten derailed maybe its best to shelve it.
Yeah I was responding to something about big pharma suppressing the truth about effective holistic medicines because there's no money in it. Pages back. Apologies to everyone.
and I was actually thinking about a post made by completely someone else, so nevermind again.0 -
jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
I suffer from chronic pain. I would absolutely love to have a form of legal medical marijuana that didn't have any head change to alleviate my pain.
I have no desire to be high. I would like less pain.
Maybe the crowd you know is different than little old ladies with arthritis.
I'm a tough old bird about my pain and don't really dwell on it, but it would be nice to not be woken quite as much by my dodgy hips. Just a few tokes of something before bed for sweet dreams and restorative sleep would be awesome.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »jseams1234 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »fitfreakymom wrote: »I will use what works for me and if smoking a plant takes care of my body pain and my head then I will do that before popping a pill made in a lab.
What "Big Pharma" could do would be extracting the active ingredient that helps with your condition so you wouldn't have to hurt your lungs with hot smoke.
Here your go!
"Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) refers to a psychotropic cannabinoid (dronabinol, trade name Marinol is a synthetic form of THC, approved by the FDA) and is the principal psychoactive constituent of cannabis. Its chemical name is (–)-trans-Δ⁹-tetrahydrocannabinol and the term THC is used to refer to isomers as well. The pharmaceutical formulation dronabinol is available by prescription in the U.S, Canada, Germany and New Zealand."
I was put on Marinol (Dronabinol) by prescription by the VA several years ago after I dropped so much weight because of my treatment. Nothing else was working to help with my appetite and nausea. They were reluctant but gave it to me. Well, let me tell you - the stuff worked like a charm. It worked so well in fact and got me so stoned that I stopped taking it in the morning at at lunch because I couldn't work on it. So, I'd save my pill and take all of them at once as soon as I was clocked out. I'd walk to the mall and hit the food court and just demolish plate after plate after plate of food. I'd then take the train home (yes, no driving). The high from it is exactly the same high you get from edibles... and yes, although I don't use MJ anymore - I spent my teen years and the first year out of the Army in college trying to smoke myself into an alternate universe. So, plenty of experience. lol
I'm also confused about it's use for pain. There are so many other drugs, including simple ibuprofen that are better for localized and sharp pain. Maybe ok for general aches and stuff but it never worked at all for me for things like tooth aches or injuries. Pain was still all there, just maybe too stoned to complain about it as much.
I'm sure I read they are looking into strains that have all of the good qualities they want without all of the thc.
That would be interesting. How much do you want to bet that if they came up with a strain that had no THC, didn't get you high at all, but really worked on a specific ailment, that the majority of folks who claim medical use would not want to use it? I'm sure there are people who would welcome such a product but in my experience the head change/high is the main aspect of MJ that people are looking for.
I suffer from chronic pain. I would absolutely love to have a form of legal medical marijuana that didn't have any head change to alleviate my pain.
I have no desire to be high. I would like less pain.
Maybe the crowd you know is different than little old ladies with arthritis.
I'm a tough old bird about my pain and don't really dwell on it, but it would be nice to not be woken quite as much by my dodgy hips. Just a few tokes of something before bed for sweet dreams and restorative sleep would be awesome.
Same here--from another old lady with OA. The pits.1 -
This is a great discussion but I wanted to note that I didn't mean to derail the thread debating the use of marijuana in medical treatments. I was just pointing out that yes, "big pharma" has no problem extracting what may or may not be effective components of plants used in holistic and alternative medical practices and bringing them into mainstream medicine if they think they can make a buck.
eta: I probably should have searched harder for something yawn-worthy as an example
Aspirin (came from willow bark extract, and Bayer tacked an acetyl molecule to the end to increase bioavailability... and so they could patent it. Same thing with Heroin (which is a Bayer trademark just like Aspirin, if you didn't know) = diacetylmorphine, came from opium poppies (along with Codeine, one of the most commonly used pharmaceuticals in the world).
TL;DR: There are tons of natural drugs in common use today. Some of them have been slightly modified to make them patentable and/or increase bioavailability, but they are still fundamentally plant extracts.5
This discussion has been closed.
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