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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?18 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)5 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I used to have Hepatitis C, genotype 1 before the current easy reliable pill a week cure was available. I went through "combination therapy" for an entire year - where I had to take Ribavirin by the handful, a nasty antiviral with a lot of side effects and also had to inject myself weekly with interferon, also with some nasty side effects. I was told at the time that there was good chance it was all for naught, as a very high percentage of folks did not respond to the treatment (30% or so for G1). I lost my hair, I lost 105 pounds, my RBC went to *kitten* and I could barely walk up a flight of stairs, my gums bled, I developed a nasty form of eczema and seborrhea on my face and had to carry around an extra set of drawers.... An entire YEAR of this *kitten*. Well, I was a good responder and now many years later I'm still virus free because I trusted modern, empirical based medicine - even though I knew there was a significant chance it wouldn't work, involved some real risk (death) and had a laundry list of common side-effects.
However, I can *kitten* guarantee that if I had decided to treat my disease with probiotics, cannabis oil on my testicles and powdered yak penis... or ANY form of alternate/holistic medicine I would still be infected, my fibrosis would have advanced to cirrhosis or liver cancer and I'd either be dead or on a waiting list for a transplant.17 -
People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.18 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
and children have died from simple surgeries - no one is arguing that modern medicine is infalliable - but there is peer reviewed evidence that attempts to identify those issues and provide potential alternatives - something that rarely exists with many holistic medical treatments3 -
That "third leading cause of death" has to be wrong; @born_of_fire74 . Sure enough; the top three are heart disease, cancer, and chronic respiratory disease.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/11 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
I'm curious - what qualifies as a medical error?0 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
With the dentist case wasn't it because her father(?) gave her food when she was supposed to be fasting before anesthesia (a big big no-no)? That's negligence on the practitioners part. That's not the fault of the medication. If it was used as intended that wouldn't have happened.4 -
Holistic treatments, if followed ignorantly, don't always make people happy and healthy.6
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singingflutelady wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
With the dentist case wasn't it because her father(?) gave her food when she was supposed to be fasting before anesthesia (a big big no-no)? That's negligence on the practitioners part. That's not the fault of the medication. If it was used as intended that wouldn't have happened.
IIRC something similar happened with the teenager in CA who died after having her tonsils out - she was feed solid food too soon, which ripped open stitches and basically caused her to bleed to death0 -
About that little girl who went in to cardiac arrest after dental work.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/amber-athwal-hearing-mather-1.4368473
I'm mad at the dentist who appears to consider general anaesthesia to be routine and the casualness with which risk factors (eating breakfast) were dismissed. The unprofessional conduct meeting is going on right now.0 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
So what's worse, damage due to bad luck while getting something that works
or death from a treatable disease because you chose to use a treatment THAT DOESN'T WORK AT ALL4 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
If these various holistic treatments have any medicinal value, I would encourage it's practitioners to offer evidence which substantiates these claims. When and if they can ever provide this we might have something worth discussing. Until they do they will be mostly dismissed as snake oil salesmen perpetuating medical fraud by most people, which is not an unfair characterization given the history of "alternative medicine".
People can believe whatever they like on faith alone if that is their choice, but I would argue it is a poor one.6 -
Are there any holistic practitioners of dentistry? How would they fill cavities?4
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »JustRobby1 wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »QUESTION......if a holistic "practitioner" treats someone and they die because they prescribed them something be that diet or supplementation that ultimately killed them could they be sued for malpractice with their "certification" and everything??
id be devastated if I said someone had some "woo illness" and what I did contributed to their death/critical injury because i was wrong
Holistic practitioners are not often successfully sued because they are not committing malpractice in the legal sense when they kill or injure someone. They are not doctors, nor are they bound by the same scope of stipulations.
They are not successful held legally accountable very often for the same reason priests aren't. Religion was brought up in an interesting story earlier in the thread, but it ironically has some similarities. If you prayed at mass on Sunday to be cured, and you were not in fact cured - would you be able to hold the priest responsible? People that seek out these nut case "holistic" types do so of their own volition. Just like with the priest, they "believe" it will help them, despite overwhelming scientific evidence that it has no medicinal value at all.
It'd be kind of like someone going to a casino and be told they were going to win big money if they bet there rather than investing and when they in fact lose a ton of money they try to sue the casino. That isn't going to stick and neither is suing someone for giving you an alternative treatment that isn't successful even if they as suggested you avoid the common treatment. I don't think a court would side with either that that was somehow a rational decision to make.
Now if a holistic doctor gave something to someone and that thing literallly killed them then yeah, could sue there. But pretty sure that is a major reason they don't actually give people active ingredients.
This financial analogy is excellent. Blue chip mutual funds are not a guarantee that you will make money, and in fact you might lose money, but they sure are a heck of a lot better retirement plan than the lottery. Which is not to say you can't entertain yourself by gambling away a few hundred bucks now and then, just don't make it the plan.
However, au contraire on the matter of actually giving people the actual ingredients--I believe many recipients of traditional medicines throughout Asia are killed off by aconite on a regular basis; fortunately for us in the West our practitioners of woo are generally savvy as to the possibility of legal action, while our embracers of woo fall easily for the whole homeopathy scam, and can happily and safely play in the placebo effect playpen, rather than actually drinking a nice killing tea of belladonna, aconite and digitalis. It does not, regrettably, stop Westerners from burning their noses and other portions of their faces off using black salve (bloodroot) to "treat" "cancer." (A valuable lesson learned the hard way). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_salve
(Fun fact: belladonna is still used in the eyedrops you get when your eyes are dilated. To my surprise, digitalis is still used in heart medicine; I thought it had been phased out, but apparently not).2 -
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This must be the course they have you take before you move to Sedona.jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, it is out there! Woo
Is the live blood testing lab still there? I went as a joke several years ago and saw great video of my "white blood cells eating fat" in a drop of blood. Before the test, the spiel was that if my whites were low, I would need their kidney/liver cleanse. After the test, my white blood cell count was good but the cells were were too big so I needed their kidney/liver cleanse. Which would also jump start a 10/lb a month weight loss. Auto-ship discount=$120 for 3 months supply.
Nope, didn’t see that place. But I did see a holistic veterinarian office, it was next to the crystal shop.2 -
Calliope610 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
I'm curious - what qualifies as a medical error?
And now I wonder what the rate of damage is in holistic medicine.
#of cases where something bad happens from holistic medicine vs. #of people taking it ´
and #of cases where medical aid didn't work out vs #of people taking regular medical aid.
I wonder which would be higher.0 -
How many cancer patients were taking holistic medicines when they died? (This is bad logic by the way. Just providing by way of example.)1
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How many people die in ambulances? I bet the rate is much higher than the people who walk to the hospital.
Ergo, it is safer to walk to the hospital.
Can you spot the logical flaw?7
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