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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
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and there are "woo" methods that DO NOT work and there are ones that do...no one is arguing that - but those that do, typically do have research to back them up (i.e. willowbark that aspirin is derived from)
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Nobody thought you had a form of IBD if you had extremely high amounts of inflammation in your colon?7
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People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?29 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.13 -
jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, it is out there! Woo1 -
singingflutelady wrote: »suzannesimmons3 wrote: »im with the thinking that if these things existed and "big pharma" could make a buck or two don't you think they would have.......
And people act like holistic supplement makers are not making tons of money. They're in it for the money too.
The majority of supplement manufacturers are in fact wholly-owned subsidiaries of pharmaceutical firms. As it requires ~2B USD to take a drug to market firms launch additional indications under the supplement variant of similar drugs to attempt to reach a larger market.
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born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Yes, this. I'm sure there are the occasional things suggested by a holistic practitioner that can help (even if for totally different reasons than the woo given), and I know there are things that medical doctors can't find a cause for still, and things that can't currently be helped by medical means.
But to suggest, as your post does, born_of_fire74, that the two are basically the same, and equally likely to help, and it's all just chance or persona preference ignores the fact that there are many more things where medicine CAN help and does and where not getting medical help can lead to much, much worse problems.
My mom had breast cancer, it was caught early, she had treatment and is still alive with no recurrence 30 years later. If she's not gotten medical treatment, or done alternative only instead, that would not have been the case, period. There are many such examples.
My sister has IBS, and struggled with it for a period of time, with help from a doctor (that was frustrating and seemingly unhelpful for a while) until they worked together to just figure out and identify her trigger foods. Now she's generally fine. Yes, that was what I'd call a holistic approach (and my doctor also uses a holistic approach in that she cares about lifestyle and will test for deficiencies and so on and recommended that I add D3 in the winter), but unlike what we see from "holistic practitioners" (or what the school in question seems to be promoting) the holistic efforts from these real doctors did not involve lying about the condition or making up something to be diagnosed and fixed -- with my sister it was that there are usually trigger foods and it can help to eliminate them, some are common, but also there's a lot of variation.4 -
People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.4 -
Very interesting @CSARdiver . If this is how mortalities are recorded, I imagine old age drugs would get too many hits. Like BP meds, blood thinners, diabetes meds, angina blockers and the like.
I’m hating fentanyl right now.
This shift began just after 1998 and never really changed. The data collected prior to this was reviewed by a medical panel and some manner of causality assessed - e.g. Definitely related, probably related, possibly related, improbably related, not related. This causality defaulted to definite and the burden of proof is on the firm to prove that the adverse event is not related based upon objective evidence. Few firms conduct this analysis anymore. I still do this for internal analysis, but it is not a regulatory requirement.3 -
I wanted to add that I think there is no issue with adding holistic practices along with conventional medicine as long as your doctor knows what you are doing.
Examples are native healing practices being incorporated in a patient's care. I personally prefer chamomile tea over other sleep aids.4 -
TenderBlender667 wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »Can you give some examples of what you're being 'taught'?
Candida Overgrowth, Leaky Gut Syndrome, Adrenal Fatigue, Detox, Connection between gut micro biome and brain health, Refined Sugar causing disease and nutritional deficiencies, birth control pills depleting B vitamins and causing copper toxicity, Free radicals causing disease and accelerated aging, lack of hydrochloric acid causing mineral and vitamin deficiencies as well as digestive symptoms, soy being bad for hormonal health, regular dairy being bad for general health, the negative effects of GMO's, heavy metals in water and food.... The list could go on and on
You lost me at detox.4 -
jseams1234 wrote: »If anybody is curious about the courses taught at CSNN
http://csnn.ca/program/courses/
NN105 – Body-Mind-Spirit, The Connection | 27 hours
In the first part of this course, the student will learn every aspect of orthomolecular practice in the pursuit of mental health. In the second part, the student will discover how to consider and address the mental, emotional and spiritual contributors to disease and healing. Through an understanding of psychology, the human energy field, relationships and intuition, the student will explore a truly holistic way of guiding others towards wholeness. In addition, the journey through this course encourages students to develop their own innate gifts as healing professionals by coming into alignment with their life’s purpose.
They even make basic courses like Biology seem somewhat suspect.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Lol. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, it is out there! Woo
Is the live blood testing lab still there? I went as a joke several years ago and saw great video of my "white blood cells eating fat" in a drop of blood. Before the test, the spiel was that if my whites were low, I would need their kidney/liver cleanse. After the test, my white blood cell count was good but the cells were were too big so I needed their kidney/liver cleanse. Which would also jump start a 10/lb a month weight loss. Auto-ship discount=$120 for 3 months supply.1 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
There is a big difference between a regulated substance with known benefits side effects given for a known disease for which the benefit of that substance has been repeatedly documented, or malpractice and misdiagnosis, and unregulated substances with unknown side effects and no proven benefits given by people with no medical knowledge or training for a disease that may or may not exist where the practitioner can't be held accountable and where the incidences can't be documented for further research and to avoid similar issues in the future.4 -
Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »"Connection between gut micro biome and brain health" is something they taught us in medical school. There are many new papers being released on it. We did not previously know the true connection. Heck years ago we didn't know the gut had it's own nervous system. The gut is the major producer of serotonin so it does have a major intricate relationship with brain health and development. Much of which is still to be discovered. I wouldn't say this was holistic as it has been proven in many research studies and is one of the newest ways of treating diseases.
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.
I have been reading the microbiome research with a lot of interest--it is truly fascinating. I think the problem with the woo side of the house is not that it doesn't have potential, but you know there are already holistic practitioners packaging up their poop pills and selling them with no scientific research or control whatsover, and that is a freaking Pandora's box of so many things that could go horribly, horribly wrong. Research comes out saying that thin people have a different biome with a particular strain of bacteria, and it becomes extremely easy to prey on desperate people in a fairly disgusting manner.3 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?18 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I care about people not being taken advantage of by charlatans with no medical or other training who pray on the illnesses of others to make money. Turning a blind eye and supporting people just because something makes them happy or feels good is, in my opinion, a bit ridiculous.
Medical error is the third leading cause of death in the US FYI. I don’t advocate abandoning modern medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out. Why would I advocate abandoning alternative medicine because it sometimes doesn’t work out?
I also have a hard time thinking of a better reason to support someone than they are making themselves happy and healthy. That is pretty much the point of life, is it not?
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)5 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People need to stop acting as if modern, empirical based medicine is infallible. It’s absolutely not. People treated by medical doctors remain sick or die despite treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. People treated by medical doctors GET sick or die BECAUSE of their treatment all the time, just like they do when they visit holistic or alternative practitioners instead. The reasons all those symptoms have to be disclosed in pharmaceutical commercials in that modern medicine has associated risks, just like there are risks associated with holistic or alternative medicines.
The important thing should be whether or not a person’s quality of life is improved. If it is, who *kitten* cares if they farted twice, paid homage to Ra and ate 9lbs of salt to do so? If it is, who are you to judge the means by which their lives are bettered? Do you care about people being happy and healthy or do you care about being right?
I used to have Hepatitis C, genotype 1 before the current easy reliable pill a week cure was available. I went through "combination therapy" for an entire year - where I had to take Ribavirin by the handful, a nasty antiviral with a lot of side effects and also had to inject myself weekly with interferon, also with some nasty side effects. I was told at the time that there was good chance it was all for naught, as a very high percentage of folks did not respond to the treatment (30% or so for G1). I lost my hair, I lost 105 pounds, my RBC went to *kitten* and I could barely walk up a flight of stairs, my gums bled, I developed a nasty form of eczema and seborrhea on my face and had to carry around an extra set of drawers.... An entire YEAR of this *kitten*. Well, I was a good responder and now many years later I'm still virus free because I trusted modern, empirical based medicine - even though I knew there was a significant chance it wouldn't work, involved some real risk (death) and had a laundry list of common side-effects.
However, I can *kitten* guarantee that if I had decided to treat my disease with probiotics, cannabis oil on my testicles and powdered yak penis... or ANY form of alternate/holistic medicine I would still be infected, my fibrosis would have advanced to cirrhosis or liver cancer and I'd either be dead or on a waiting list for a transplant.17 -
People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.18 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »People die all the time following conventional medicine and by following less tested methods. But SHOULD they have died? HOW MANY died? There's a reason that all countries keep "cause of death" and mortality statistics. Because the goal is to reduce mortality.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmsa1202099#t=article
Tragic are the two examples noted above of two children in southern Alberta, Canada, who died from perfectly treatable diseases (meningitis and strep throat) but died while being treated with holistic medicines like clove oil.
You should be aware of another case here in Alberta in which a dentist caused a 5y/o girl permanent, debilitating brain damage during the course of surgery then, too.
I share jgnatca’s POV. Both types of medicine can be of value.
and children have died from simple surgeries - no one is arguing that modern medicine is infalliable - but there is peer reviewed evidence that attempts to identify those issues and provide potential alternatives - something that rarely exists with many holistic medical treatments3
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