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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
Replies
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The danger in using patient satisfaction as a measure of performance.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/the-problem-with-satisfied-patients/390684/
I think transparency is key to seeing improvement in health care.
https://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/Caring-for-Quality-in-Health-Final-report.pdf3 -
Some odd logic is going on here.
Some marriages break apart despite marriage counseling
Some marriages break apart after consulting a black magic practitioner
Therefore, the MFP voodoo marriage spammer is comparable to marriage counseling because some marriages may have pulled through after burying chicken feet under an oak tree.11 -
Wait, there's a voodoo marriage spammer?2
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I realize I've probably created an issue where there is none here by conflating holistic and alternative medicine. If so, I apologize for my strawman. It's just that I don't often observe much differentiation between the types of alternative medicine.
A variety of people in my environment benefit from alternative medicine. My hairdresser who struggled for years with a PCOS/thyroid diagnosis has finally found relief through a blood-type diet (of all things) despite trying a host of prescription medications prior to that. A mechanic I work with was rear-ended on his motorcycle and now gets terrible headaches that are only relieved by acupuncture despite having a host of medications available to him. My husband finds relief in acupuncture that he can't achieve through pharmaceuticals as well. I manage a back injury and have avoided surgery through a combination of chiropractic, massage therapy and yoga with only extremely sparing use of pain killers and muscle relaxants.
I fully acknowledge that holistic medicine is unlikely to cure cancer but there can be relief for other conditions and there are a variety of alternative treatments out there.14 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »I realize I've probably created an issue where there is none here by conflating holistic and alternative medicine. If so, I apologize for my strawman. It's just that I don't often observe much differentiation between the types of alternative medicine.
A variety of people in my environment benefit from alternative medicine. My hairdresser who struggled for years with a PCOS/thyroid diagnosis has finally found relief through a blood-type diet (of all things) despite trying a host of prescription medications prior to that. A mechanic I work with was rear-ended on his motorcycle and now gets terrible headaches that are only relieved by acupuncture despite having a host of medications available to him. My husband finds relief in acupuncture that he can't achieve through pharmaceuticals as well. I manage a back injury and have avoided surgery through a combination of chiropractic, massage therapy and yoga with only extremely sparing use of pain killers and muscle relaxants.
I fully acknowledge that holistic medicine is unlikely to cure cancer but there can be relief for other conditions and there are a variety of alternative treatments out there.
i would argue there is a different between acupunture and the blood type diet. Acupuncture/chiro/massage therapy are documented as being helpful for certain conditions (there are studies to support the efficacy)...the blood type diet is woo - there is no data that even say its a legit diet (in fact, several of us on the boards who if we were to eat according to diet would have severe medical issues)6 -
deannalfisher wrote: »
i would argue there is a different between acupunture and the blood type diet. Acupuncture/chiro/massage therapy are documented as being helpful for certain conditions (there are studies to support the efficacy)...the blood type diet is woo - there is no data that even say its a legit diet (in fact, several of us on the boards who if we were to eat according to diet would have severe medical issues)
Just like Chiro is great for shoulder/back/neck pain/disfunction, less good for digestive issues.1 -
Putting up the blood type diet as something promoted by holistic practitioners actually managed to make me think worse of them, which I would not have thought possible.
Changing your diet can help and it can be that the blood type diet recommended was healthier than how the person was eating or coincidentally cut out something that was bad for the person (sensitivity or some such), but to claim there's some scientific backing to the diet is really just the worst, so if that's the kind of thing a holistic practitioner does, ugh.
I don't actually think negatively of acupuncture or massage therapy at all, nor (of course) yoga (which is not the same thing anyway).
I'm talking about diagnosing conditions (like adrenal fatigue) that aren't real and prescribing things like a "detox" as a cure. On the other hand, often when people think they have adrenal fatigue they are suffering from chronic stress or undersleeping or the like and lifestyle changes can (of course) help a lot. Just don't lie about what's going on and definitely don't discourage people from getting actual medical care for diagnosed conditions with medical treatment (strep, cancer, so on) or tell them vaccines are bad or the rest of the "holistic" nonsense that I think is dangerous.
Since OP is not talking about a treatment she is enjoying, but considering spending money to learn a bunch of nonsense (with perhaps some good stuff included too) and to encourage others to spend money on such things, yeah, I think it's worth expressing an opinion.5 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Some odd logic is going on here.
Some marriages break apart despite marriage counseling
Some marriages break apart after consulting a black magic practitioner
Therefore, the MFP voodoo marriage spammer is comparable to marriage counseling because some marriages may have pulled through after burying chicken feet under an oak tree.
Just break up.5 -
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deannalfisher wrote: »
even if they end up killing themselves because they refuse to treat something that is medically treatable because of their believe in holistic medicine? (see the court cases of children dying because parents believed in holistic healing from what are treatable diseases)
These people would be failing the "and healthy" part of my equation.
Where I live, there is NO legal basis to force the non-institutionalized mentally ill to take their medication as prescribed. If we're not going to force people of certifiably diminished mental capacity to take medication they don't want to, then we certainly can't force people to undergo other forms of treatment, can we? The only reason those cases are of note is that the parents perpetrated something upon their children.
Self-determination is a basic human right, even when it results in self-harm. Adult people decide to compromise their health each and every day and there's nothing any of us can do about it aside from specific, strict circumstances that certainly don't amount to you disagreeing with their ideas about what constitutes legitimate medical treatment.
*missed a very important "NO"
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There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.11 -
Heck, dentists don't routinely use general anesthetic in Canada, either. Which makes me question the dentist under scrutiny right now.
I don't understand the comment about legally forcing the mentally ill to take their medication. Does your country require it or not?
There's such a thing as informed consent. Every person has a right to be fully informed of the consequences of their treatment. If a woo peddler makes outrageous claims, they can be called in to account/sued/decertified.
Hence the popularity of personal accounts and testimonials (woo peddler says "I didn't make these claims; my satisfied customers did.")
Hence the popularity of hair growth and weight loss aids (nobody dies).2 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »
These people would be failing the "and healthy" part of my equation.
Where I live, there is legal basis to force the non-institutionalized mentally ill to take their medication as prescribed. If we're not going to force people of certifiably diminished mental capacity to take medication they don't want to, then we certainly can't force people to undergo other forms of treatment, can we? The only reason those cases are of note is that the parents perpetrated something upon their children.
Self-determination is a basic human right, even when it results in self-harm. Adult people decide to compromise their health each and every day and there's nothing any of us can do about it aside from specific, strict circumstances that certainly don't amount to you disagreeing with their ideas about what constitutes legitimate medical treatment.
I agree. I will be vocal in my opposition to "alternative" treatments that have not been shown to be effective at all that some might go to in place of conventional treatments that do have proof of efficacy. I will not, however, support legislation or laws that would require consenting adults to take a particular treatment over another. If people want to convince themselves in the magical properties of whatever then that is their prerogative. If given the chance I'd try to talk them out of it but it would be inappropriate to apply force.
The fact people die because of this is shameful but I am unwilling to compromise on my principles in terms of freedoms of consenting adults.6 -
Seems like with holistic health practices they are "scorned" until some of them actually turn out to be true and are then widely accepted lol.
Do you know what they call holistic or alternative medicine that has been proven to work?
Medicine.
-Tim Minchin15 -
NSFW but sums up my feelings on "holistic" "alternative" "homeopathic" medicine pretty well as well as the reason why at points I can't help but speak out about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk 6 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.17 -
The heck with Big Pharma, I mean they have a cure for everything and suppress it to make a profit. The thousands upon thousands of people employed in the industry sure are really good at keeping the biggest secrets of all time.
I just visit my local shaman or medicine men.
"You want me to put my ear to the ground and listen for hoof beats, check for footprints, look for broken twigs? This is the modern era. That stuff doesn't work anymore." -Kicking Wing Animal Doctor13 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
Really? That is the only reason? Purity, controlled dosage and the like have nothing to do with it?
Let's say you need to dose someone with atropine... well, you got some belladonna growing the the back. Do you know how many chemicals besides atropine are in belladonna? Do you know how potentially dangerous some of them are at the wrong dosage? What about cost? What do you think is cheaper, purely synthesizing a compound in a lab or factory or farming, harvesting, processing and then still having to process and extract the specific compound from the sometimes thousands of others that may be present.12 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »There actually IS something we can do about it. Each of us plays a small role, at the least, in determining whether the culture promotes woo or promotes more scientific approaches. Whether it's considered an "of course, it's responsible" to have children vaccinated or take them to a doctor when sick or whether "eh, I thought I'd have someone check their aura."
In the OP's case, she's considering whether to become part of the system promoting woo or whether to question and rethink that.
I would agree that absent really, really extreme circumstances adults have self determination and can make even decisions I consider really unwise or based in superstition about their health, of course, and with respect to most of the stuff on MFP the only harm is maybe delaying doing something that actually would be more helpful. But that does not mean that our only alternative is to actually encourage the idea that crystals are the same as medicine or that if I might be sick or have a weight problem I should detox, since it's the "toxins" causing it. Saying "no, that's wrong, that's not scientifically supported at all," especially on a forum like this where there may be lurkers actually looking for information. And, ideally, giving good reasons for our opinions or links to actual respectable sites is a positive step.
Saying "no, that's mean, you should never question what someone else does, even on the internet in a general discussion about the merits of holistic medicine" is in reality encouraging and promoting a culture that does not respect science and is hardly the only alternate to legally forcing people to see doctors or take medication.
My objections have had nothing at all to do with kindness. I have not said anything about anyone being mean. I'm suggesting that there are all kinds of options to western medicine, many of which are proven to work as you admit yourself. The anti-woo crowd is doing itself a disservice, in my opinion, by severely limiting their health options and doing others a disservice by trying to prevent alternative medicine from being available as an option.
I don't want to get surgery on my back and I don't want to manage my pain with medications. I'm currently happy and able to do my job as a result of the alternative treatments I receive. My hairdresser was miserable for years but has finally lost some weight and is happier and more energetic than she's been in years with her (totally suspect but somehow effective) blood type diet. Why is this such an affront to the anti-woo crowd? What business is it of yours in the first damn place?
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stevencloser wrote: »
Pebbles. All-natural.
this literally made my teeth cringe, i didn't know they could do that2 -
jseams1234 wrote: »Really? That is the only reason? Purity, controlled dosage and the like have nothing to do with it?
Let's say you need to dose someone with atropine... well, you got some belladonna growing the the back. Do you know how many chemicals besides atropine are in belladonna? Do you know how potentially dangerous some of them are at the wrong dosage? What about cost? What do you think is cheaper, purely synthesizing a compound in a lab or factory or farming, harvesting, processing and then still having to process and extract the specific compound from the sometimes thousands of others that may be present.
You say that as if it's not possible to separate or isolate specific components of an extraction. And talk about it like there are no side effects to the synthetic variants lol. Tell you what, name one drug that's not patented, and I will concede my point entirely.
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The active ingredient in Stevia was approved by the FDA long before the whole leaf was. It's a lot easier to work out the side effects of a single ingredient.3
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Also tested and ingested by South American native tribes; tobacco, cocoa, cocaine, ebene, yopo, peyote, morning glory, and ayahuasca. To name a few.
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/hallucinogenic-plants-and-their-use-traditional-societies10 -
Holistic. Surely one of the most abused and misunderstood words in modern times. In essence, holism is a sound and sensible approach to fields like medicine, farming and more. But the word itself has been hijacked by an entire subculture of airheads and fairy witchdoctors. And the greatest irony of all is their approach is routinely not holistic at all.
OP, holistic medicine with all its failings is a growth industry. Armed with your Certificate of Woo, you can make a good living. But if you care about actually helping people I would urge you to take a holistic approach to your studies and decide for yourself where the lines of health and hokum diverge.
And to the many who have decided to put all their eggs in the modern western medicine basket. I really think you are badly limiting your options. Most of the things pharmaceutical companys make were'nt invented or discovered in a lab. They are just synthesized versions of the herbs, roots and flowers jungle tribes have been using for millennia to treat illness. And the only reason they synthesize at all is because you can't patent a natural extract.
Any good western doctor will tell you, modern medicine doesn't have all the answers and is part of an industry that learns more every day. EBM is great, it's a solid base to work from and I'm a big fan. But limiting one's self to only the things someone has bothered to spend the money on proving and getting through FDA or similar approval is just silly. Try telling the thousands of people who are getting real results treating child seizures with cannabis oil that it's hokum, because it doesn't have approval and a sufficient body of clinical testing evidence.
FWIW my little brother's seizures have been under control with medical marijuana - the occurrence is down about 95% from his previous treatments (of which there were MANY over the past 23 years). YMMV10 -
Sure, very true. But the Guaraní people of South America have been using Stevia for at least a thousand years.
Areca nut has been used for thousands of years for stamina and digestion. Thanks to modern medicine we now know it's a known carcinogen.9 -
Also tested and ingested by South American native tribes; tobacco, cocoa, cocaine, ebene, yopo, peyote, morning glory, and ayahuasca. To name a few.
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/publications/cultural-survival-quarterly/hallucinogenic-plants-and-their-use-traditional-societies
You don't ingest Morning Glory, you soak in a warm tub full of it. Totally not worth it btw.
Edit: apparently ingestion can include absorbtion, but is usually applied to single cell organisms.0 -
born_of_fire74 wrote: »
My objections have had nothing at all to do with kindness. I have not said anything about anyone being mean. I'm suggesting that there are all kinds of options to western medicine, many of which are proven to work as you admit yourself. The anti-woo crowd is doing itself a disservice, in my opinion, by severely limiting their health options and doing others a disservice by trying to prevent alternative medicine from being available as an option.
I don't want to get surgery on my back and I don't want to manage my pain with medications. I'm currently happy and able to do my job as a result of the alternative treatments I receive. My hairdresser was miserable for years but has finally lost some weight and is happier and more energetic than she's been in years with her (totally suspect but somehow effective) blood type diet. Why is this such an affront to the anti-woo crowd? What business is it of yours in the first damn place?
See, this is what I was talking about earlier - anecdotal evidence vs controlled studies. I'd buy it if someone could show me a legitimate blind study where people with identical symptoms were divided into random groups and given diets either conforming to their blood type or not. If the results showed verifiable improvement in the symptoms of those who ate the diet consistent with their blood type, and little or no improvement in the other group I'd be completely convinced, and would be advising others to give it a try.
eta: And something that always puzzles me. How do people who believe blood type diets are valid reconcile that with body type diets, which may dictate a completely different way of eating for the same person. The same kind of rationale backs both diets - how do you pick one over the other?10 -
jessiferrrb wrote: »
FWIW my little brother's seizures have been under control with medical marijuana - the occurrence is down about 95% from his previous treatments (of which there were MANY over the past 23 years). YMMV
I think marijuana is one of the rare situations where it was actively prevented from being used medicinally and legally (and is still completely illegal in the UK). Even now it's not being prescribed in the "traditional" way which is frustrating as hell due to the number of things it could potentially be used for. I'm sure someone knows why and I'm naturally inclined to think it's because it was one of the first drugs to be demonised and part of the "war on drugs". Same for hallucinogens that could have some interesting applications but because fo their leak and use recreationally back when it was developed there's a big nope on it too (though isn't there some research now being done? Did I make that up?).
And then again I could be making up conspiracy theories, I'm open to that too. But I think the above examples are not the norm on the whole when people try to say effective treatments are withheld from us because x.y.z.2
This discussion has been closed.
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