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Why are most mfp users against holistic nutrition?
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NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »I'm confused on how being skeptical of holistic practitioners = CICO fundamentalists. They are two unrelated concepts.
My argument is about two things:
The pursuit of knowledge and the inhibitors on this forum of those who try to learn.
I don't support zealots, or snake oil merchants and I don't support shouty people.
The OP may start on one path towards knowledge and may realise that she goes on to study real science.
Good and great!
I bet the ancient CICO-style, fixed opinion ancient ones were the same ones who offered hemlock to Socrates and screamed at Galileo to put downed his god-less telescope!
CICO is immutable. There is no argument against it. There is no study that shows someone eating less than they burn and gaining weight nor any study that shows someone eating more than they burn and losing weight. But it just sounds like you're trolling at this point, because no one is this far gone from reality.
The human endocrine system is way too complex for CICO to be the final determinant of the weight loss question.
In a perfect human machine CICO is correct - if it only has one energy variable.
I have lots of variables...so do you.
Science has progressed very well without your simplistic, flat-earth-CICO contribution.
Support those who need more than what you offer as 'advice'.
Or, stop being a hindrance to honest and curious enquiry.
Please.
Present the evidence.
Still waiting for these magical humans who can bend space and time to create and destroy energy.
Again present the evidence.
Everything is "variable", it doesn't negate the energy in and energy out balance that ALWAYS occurs
Again, endocrine system, hormones etc do not create energy from nothing, if it did humans would be harvested or the hormones would be produced in a lab to power the world
It is ok to admit you ate too much
Saying CICO isn't valid doesn't absolve you of accountability, though it is a "convenient" crutch
Hi,
There are too many good people on this forum who struggle.
You present a dogmatic, unhelpful, catch-all answer and demand evidence.
My N+1 is this:
Excess cholestorol...naturally occurring...statins must be taken...resulting muscle weakness prevents exercise...liver overworks to negate chemicals...kidneys overwork as well.
Human pysiology does not conform to machine-like inputs.
We are way too complex.
CICO is not my sole answer.
You are negative and lack empathy.
And...not a scientist but as religiously dogmatic as the Mormons.
Your turn.
Doh.
Answered in the new thread about CICO.2 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »Could you please stop derailing this thread? It's about holistic nutrition and whether the OP is being taught bunkus, nothing to do with weight loss, CICO or mean people.
It has everything to do with mean people.
Everything.
The OP was given such crap in this thread that she disappeared.
I don't blame her.
Your opinions of 'bunkus' are just that - Opinions.
Play Nice, Good Folk!17 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Could you please stop derailing this thread? It's about holistic nutrition and whether the OP is being taught bunkus, nothing to do with weight loss, CICO or mean people.
It has everything to do with mean people.
Everything.
The OP was given such crap in this thread that she disappeared.
I don't blame her.
Your opinions of 'bunkus' are just that - Opinions.
Play Nice, Good Folk!
A great many OPs disappear from their threads--perhaps they've got the info they wanted in the beginning.5 -
If I recall correctly, the OP made a few contributions. She’s continued to post on other topics. I think she has a pretty good idea why some posters have concerns with the holistic approach.
This is now a monster thread of course, with its own weather patterns.13 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »I'm confused on how being skeptical of holistic practitioners = CICO fundamentalists. They are two unrelated concepts.
My argument is about two things:
The pursuit of knowledge and the inhibitors on this forum of those who try to learn.
I don't support zealots, or snake oil merchants and I don't support shouty people.
The OP may start on one path towards knowledge and may realise that she goes on to study real science.
Good and great!
I bet the ancient CICO-style, fixed opinion ancient ones were the same ones who offered hemlock to Socrates and screamed at Galileo to put downed his god-less telescope!
CICO is immutable. There is no argument against it. There is no study that shows someone eating less than they burn and gaining weight nor any study that shows someone eating more than they burn and losing weight. But it just sounds like you're trolling at this point, because no one is this far gone from reality.
The human endocrine system is way too complex for CICO to be the final determinant of the weight loss question.
In a perfect human machine CICO is correct - if it only has one energy variable.
I have lots of variables...so do you.
Science has progressed very well without your simplistic, flat-earth-CICO contribution.
Support those who need more than what you offer as 'advice'.
Or, stop being a hindrance to honest and curious enquiry.
Please.
Present the evidence.
Still waiting for these magical humans who can bend space and time to create and destroy energy.
Again present the evidence.
Everything is "variable", it doesn't negate the energy in and energy out balance that ALWAYS occurs
Again, endocrine system, hormones etc do not create energy from nothing, if it did humans would be harvested or the hormones would be produced in a lab to power the world
It is ok to admit you ate too much
Saying CICO isn't valid doesn't absolve you of accountability, though it is a "convenient" crutch
Hi,
There are too many good people on this forum who struggle.
You present a dogmatic, unhelpful, catch-all answer and demand evidence.
My N+1 is this:
Excess cholestorol...naturally occurring...statins must be taken...resulting muscle weakness prevents exercise...liver overworks to negate chemicals...kidneys overwork as well.
Human pysiology does not conform to machine-like inputs.
We are way too complex.
CICO is not my sole answer.
You are negative and lack empathy.
And...not a scientist but as religiously dogmatic as the Mormons.
Your turn.
Doh.
Arguing against CICO is like jumping off a building to argue against gravity. You'll lose every time.
I am guessing you're not a highly educated person, and low on the economic ladder(usually this kind of person likes to absolve personal accountability and responsibility, ie it is not MY fault it is someone or something else's fault). Keep believing in magic............I am sure all your dreams will come true.............................someday
9 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Could you please stop derailing this thread? It's about holistic nutrition and whether the OP is being taught bunkus, nothing to do with weight loss, CICO or mean people.
It has everything to do with mean people.
Everything.
The OP was given such crap in this thread that she disappeared.
I don't blame her.
Your opinions of 'bunkus' are just that - Opinions.
Play Nice, Good Folk!
Lots of posters disappear from their own threads.
Also - challenging the concepts of holistic medicine and slamming some of the woo based concepts it encompasses is not "giving the OP crap" or being mean. Saying a concept is ridiculous is not mean. Replying to a poster who already had her own doubts and telling her to get her money back is not mean. Saying that people need to vet sources is not mean. Challenging someone's beliefs in order to get them to focus more on what matters and not be deluded by the prevalence of bad information that abounds in society today is not mean.
Your comments however, have been sweeping generalizations, insulting a broad group of veteran posters, many like myself who stick around not to mock as you seem to think, but to help people. And I will include myself in this, the concepts put forward by the "CICO fundamentalists" as you've labeled many (curiously, as I still don't know why you are bringing CICO into this thread) have been helpful for countless people on these boards.
So no, I don't plan to change my posting style to reflect your suggestions.9 -
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut. It's one of many scientific reviews on the subject. The conclusion (in summary), there are many, many things in our Western diet today this weren't there historically -- mainly pollutants, additives and preservatives. These lead to permeability issues with the gut.
I don't know how more scientific you can get that "leaky gut" isn't some made up "thing" by witch doctors. These are reputable scientists and publications.
My life has been saved by Western medicine too. I had MRSA so bad around 5 years ago I nearly died. No one said (at least me) that Western medicine has no merits. Some need lifesaving surgeries. But, there are many cases in which traditional medicine fails. In my belief, Fibromyalgia is one where they severely fail.
All the drugs our currently have shown only success (by only reduction in symptoms) of around 30%, hardly great success. And many of these drugs lead to longer term health risks.
Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
There are "money makers" on both sides of the aisle, Holistic and traditional. There was a long term study in Europe a few years ago about how Physical Therapy (1000s of participants, double blind) has just as good of outcomes as shoulder surgery for rotator cuff tears. Yet, in the US, we are so quick to go under the knife for this condition. That's a scam in most cases too.
We see Guardasil commercials all the time. Yet certain Pediatrics counsels are against the vaccine. Why? Because some teenagers are dying from the shots (of course these are being found as coincidences by the drug companies). https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/health-issues/new-concerns-about-the-human-papillomavirus-vaccine There is a Japanese substance (derived from mushrooms, it's a chemical extract) called AHCC. It's a natural, very safe antiviral. It has been shown in studies to kill the HPV virus in 50% of the time in the short term. So why isn't this being used to eradicate the HPV virus? Money. That's why. Money. It's all about money in the US, not consumer's best interest. That AHCC doesn't generate much money, so the research is limited. A few US and Canadian universities have done limited studies on it and can't find more funding. Yet it also shows great promise for cancer and Chronic Fatigue. Oh yeah, and the pharmaceutical companies new answer to Fibromyalgia -- an antiviral mixed with one of the failed drugs they are trying now. This is supposed to be introduced this year or in 2018. Well, they learned that from the Holistic community. Many believe that Fibro starts with a virus and has an underlying virus suppressing the immune system. Monolaurin (a natural antiviral from coconuts) has been dramatically helping people with Fibro for years. So has SF-722 and now AHCC. These (possibly) kill the underlying virus and AHCC dramatically boosts the action of natural killer cells. There are a couple of Pharmaceutical companies already pushing AHCC (for about 10 times the normal cost).
Methyl Bs help people with Chronic illness. They were developed for those that have the underlying genetic defect of MTHFR. The first to produce these was the pharmaceutical giants. When they were found to help people with Fibro, the price was ghastly. Since the patent has dropped off, they are now reasonable in price (under $20). When the pharmaceutical companies sold Methyl Bs, they were very, very expensive. I, for one, would like to see more independent testing on supplements (to make sure you're getting what you paid for). But at the same time, whenever large pharmaceutical companies produce a simple supplement, the price goes up 10 to 100 times what it should be, so I'm grateful for supplement companies with excellent reputations like Thorne or Pure Encapsulations or Now Foods. The best you can do is make sure they follow GMP and NSF standards.
Until all of us question what you're being told (by everyone) and being your own health advocate (and pushing for our government to stop listening to lobby dollars and do what's right), we're all worse off. Doctors certainly don't monitor themselves very much, Holistic or Traditional.17 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »Healthy people get ill with un-explained chronic diseases.
Lung cancer for non-smokers...and so on.
You are a lazy person who says "CICO, CICO, CICO...you eat too much...your fault"
This is faddish dogma that will be proven in time.
Thousands of scientists do go work but you only want one solution and bugger any one else.
You mean like I got bladder cancer despite falling into not a single known high-risk category? Because that's true.
Just like it's true that I've lost 95lbs via watching my calorie intake.
The cancer has been treated by Western Medicine (surgery to get the lesions out followed by BCG treatment to increase the likelihood that it won't be back).
The weight-loss is being handled by calorie restriction.
You want to know the connection between the two?
If you Google "surgery risks obese", you'll get a few links like:
https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070314/surgery-risks-higher-for-obese
https://www.news-medical.net/health/Obesity-and-anesthesia.aspx
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/surgical_complications_twelve_times_more_likely_in_obese_patients
Because I reduced my calories, I upped my survival chances (because frankly speaking, bladder cancer is one of the "better" cancers; it's non-invasive most of the time. It was caught in the early stages—thanks again to standard medicine. Had I still been Obesity Class III like I was 13 months ago, I think I would have stood a better chance of dying on the operating table than of the cancer).
If ANYONE is screaming and blaming in this thread, it's not the people who understand that weight-loss boils down to CICO. Or that the OP wasn't asking about CICO in the first place.
10 -
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-linking-leaky-gut-chronic.html
Here's another article on a study demonstrating "Leaky Gut" by a scientist at Harvard Medical School. The only information I could find (recent) debunking leaky gut was just opinion blog (no scientific backing) by Gastroenterologist associations that just call it "quackery" based on five or ten year old information. Of course, they have nothing (money) at stake.
14 -
You could just post the actual studies instead of articles. Many people here are well versed in the interpretation of studies and we have a lot of scientists and research scientists too. No need to make it "easy to read", we're not stupid.10
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MikePfirrman wrote: »https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-linking-leaky-gut-chronic.html
Here's another article on a study demonstrating "Leaky Gut" by a scientist at Harvard Medical School. The only information I could find (recent) debunking leaky gut was just opinion blog (no scientific backing) by Gastroenterologist associations that just call it "quackery" based on five or ten year old information. Of course, they have nothing (money) at stake.
'evidence' and 'linked to' are not the same as medically proven
Additionally, the issue is the so called school teaching unproven remedies for unrecognised conditions
One day some of these conditions may be confirmed and some treatments may then be developed. Until then the safe way to proceed, we are after all talking about public health, is to be extremely skeptical if not downright dismissive
Is the OP learning a load of guff?
yup, no doubt6 -
russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »russelljam08 wrote: »NotEmphatic wrote: »I'm confused on how being skeptical of holistic practitioners = CICO fundamentalists. They are two unrelated concepts.
My argument is about two things:
The pursuit of knowledge and the inhibitors on this forum of those who try to learn.
I don't support zealots, or snake oil merchants and I don't support shouty people.
The OP may start on one path towards knowledge and may realise that she goes on to study real science.
Good and great!
I bet the ancient CICO-style, fixed opinion ancient ones were the same ones who offered hemlock to Socrates and screamed at Galileo to put downed his god-less telescope!
CICO is immutable. There is no argument against it. There is no study that shows someone eating less than they burn and gaining weight nor any study that shows someone eating more than they burn and losing weight. But it just sounds like you're trolling at this point, because no one is this far gone from reality.
The human endocrine system is way too complex for CICO to be the final determinant of the weight loss question.
In a perfect human machine CICO is correct - if it only has one energy variable.
I have lots of variables...so do you.
Science has progressed very well without your simplistic, flat-earth-CICO contribution.
Support those who need more than what you offer as 'advice'.
Or, stop being a hindrance to honest and curious enquiry.
Please.
Present the evidence.
Still waiting for these magical humans who can bend space and time to create and destroy energy.
Again present the evidence.
Everything is "variable", it doesn't negate the energy in and energy out balance that ALWAYS occurs
Again, endocrine system, hormones etc do not create energy from nothing, if it did humans would be harvested or the hormones would be produced in a lab to power the world
It is ok to admit you ate too much
Saying CICO isn't valid doesn't absolve you of accountability, though it is a "convenient" crutch
Hi,
There are too many good people on this forum who struggle.
You present a dogmatic, unhelpful, catch-all answer and demand evidence.
My N+1 is this:
Excess cholestorol...naturally occurring...statins must be taken...resulting muscle weakness prevents exercise...liver overworks to negate chemicals...kidneys overwork as well.
Human pysiology does not conform to machine-like inputs.
We are way too complex.
CICO is not my sole answer.
You are negative and lack empathy.
And...not a scientist but as religiously dogmatic as the Mormons.
Your turn.
Doh.
Arguing against CICO is like jumping off a building to argue against gravity. You'll lose every time.
I am guessing you're not a highly educated person, and low on the economic ladder(usually this kind of person likes to absolve personal accountability and responsibility, ie it is not MY fault it is someone or something else's fault). Keep believing in magic............I am sure all your dreams will come true.............................someday
Being low on the economic ladder is irrelevant. Lacking formal education may suggest ignorance (or not) but it is not a unequivocal predictor of either lack of intelligence or poor reasoning ability. None of the above cause people to absolve themselves of accountability and responsibility; these things are a matter of character and personality, with poor exemplars across the economic, educational-background, and intelligence spectra.
We're on the same side on the CICO question. While it's completely off-topic to do so, I feel compelled to explicitly reject the rest of your post.
There's no need to insult people who are low income or less educated by suggesting that they are likely woo-spewers who have poor character.14 -
Leaky gut is a made up disease, diagnosed by quacks and treated with useless supplements in order for the quacks to move money from your wallet to their bank account. It should be called Leaky Wallet syndrome. The link you posted talks about intestinal permeability, which is much different from the fake disease know as leaky gut syndrome. Increased intestinal permeability is a result of other conditions, like Cohns. It has not been proven to be a cause of anything. The quacks want you to believe the leaky gut is the cause of all that ails us. Your study doesn't even come close to showing that. Did you miss this part of that study:MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut. It's one of many scientific reviews on the subject. The conclusion (in summary), there are many, many things in our Western diet today this weren't there historically -- mainly pollutants, additives and preservatives. These lead to permeability issues with the gut.
I don't know how more scientific you can get that "leaky gut" isn't some made up "thing" by witch doctors. These are reputable scientists and publications.
You still think this study proves anything?8. Limitations and biases
•
Additives were studied separately. In reality food composition is complex with many inter-nutrient interactions.
•
Most of the studies were performed in vitro, which is a far distance from the multicomplex situation in vivo.
•
Immortalized, epithelial cell-lines of human origin cannot replace the human small bowel in permeability studies.
•
Study of multiple food composition, in vivo, in the presence of microbiota is more accurate.
•
Many bioavailability studies originate in the pharmaceutical domain and data is of little relevance to nutritional.
•
The observations presented have stronger associative than cause and effect relationships. 8. Limitations and biases
•
Additives were studied separately. In reality food composition is complex with many inter-nutrient interactions.
•
Most of the studies were performed in vitro, which is a far distance from the multicomplex situation in vivo.
•
Immortalized, epithelial cell-lines of human origin cannot replace the human small bowel in permeability studies.
•
Study of multiple food composition, in vivo, in the presence of microbiota is more accurate.
•
Many bioavailability studies originate in the pharmaceutical domain and data is of little relevance to nutritional.
•
The observations presented have stronger associative than cause and effect relationships.
Roundup has not been shown to be harmful to humans. The enzyme and metabolic pathway it affects isn't found in humans or animals.Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
Anthony Samsel's "theory" as you say is more like hypothesis, an unproven one at that. Do you actually know the difference between a theory and a hypothesis? I suggest you look it up. Anyway, Samsel's "theory", as you say, It is not strongly supported by any science. Please post those studies from reputable journals. Again, reputable journals, no pay-for-play predatory journals.
You also don't know what "double blind" in research means. Tell me how do you double blind physical therapy vs surgery? While you're busy trying to weasle your way out that I'll post the study your referring to:There are "money makers" on both sides of the aisle, Holistic and traditional. There was a long term study in Europe a few years ago about how Physical Therapy (1000s of participants, double blind) has just as good of outcomes as shoulder surgery for rotator cuff tears. Yet, in the US, we are so quick to go under the knife for this condition. That's a scam in most cases too.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24395315
Now, I don't know about you but 180 is just a few shy of "1000s." And not double blind.
It's hysterical that you think that ACPEDS is a legitimate medical organization. They're not. They are conservative political organization formed to uphold Judeo-Christian values in opposition to AAP's stand on gay couples being allowed to adopt children. You really need to learn how to vet your sources, you're terrible at it. Also, AHCC was shown in one study to cure HPV in 5 of ten patients. Yeah, really compelling.We see Guardasil commercials all the time. Yet certain Pediatrics counsels are against the vaccine. Why? Because some teenagers are dying from the shots (of course these are being found as coincidences by the drug companies). https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/health-issues/new-concerns-about-the-human-papillomavirus-vaccine There is a Japanese substance (derived from mushrooms, it's a chemical extract) called AHCC. It's a natural, very safe antiviral. It has been shown in studies to kill the HPV virus in 50% of the time in the short term. So why isn't this being used to eradicate the HPV virus? Money. That's why. Money. It's all about money in the US, not consumer's best interest. That AHCC doesn't generate much money, so the research is limited. A few US and Canadian universities have done limited studies on it and can't find more funding.
13 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-04-evidence-linking-leaky-gut-chronic.html
Here's another article on a study demonstrating "Leaky Gut" by a scientist at Harvard Medical School. The only information I could find (recent) debunking leaky gut was just opinion blog (no scientific backing) by Gastroenterologist associations that just call it "quackery" based on five or ten year old information. Of course, they have nothing (money) at stake.
Here is the actual study. It's in mice and nothing to do with leaky gut.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28423466/
Did you miss this part of your own link:A professor of Pediatrics at Harvard Medical School, Fasano explains that, while some alternative health care practitioners use the term "leaky gut syndrome" to describe a variety of health problems ranging from gastrointestinal complaints to neurological symptoms, he prefers the concept of loss of intestinal barrier function. "Leaky gut syndrome has been blamed by some non-mainstream practitioners as the reason for almost everything that is wrong with a person. With the development of this mouse model to study inflammation, we'll be able to separate science from speculation," he says.
Seems to me he doesn't support the fake disease known as leaky gut.
Do you actually have any evidence proving leaky gut is a distinct condition and separate condition from increased intestinal permeability? So far your failing miserably.
11 -
gpokerlund wrote: »Leaky gut is legit! People who dont believe it are ignorant or not educated enough to understand the impact our gut flora has on our overall health.
Most ironic post I've read this morning.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1568997215000245
This is on the proof, other studies on Leaky Gut. It's one of many scientific reviews on the subject. The conclusion (in summary), there are many, many things in our Western diet today this weren't there historically -- mainly pollutants, additives and preservatives. These lead to permeability issues with the gut.
I don't know how more scientific you can get that "leaky gut" isn't some made up "thing" by witch doctors. These are reputable scientists and publications.
My life has been saved by Western medicine too. I had MRSA so bad around 5 years ago I nearly died. No one said (at least me) that Western medicine has no merits. Some need lifesaving surgeries. But, there are many cases in which traditional medicine fails. In my belief, Fibromyalgia is one where they severely fail.
All the drugs our currently have shown only success (by only reduction in symptoms) of around 30%, hardly great success. And many of these drugs lead to longer term health risks.
Some Holistic stuff I see is garbage. Dr Axe was telling people that everything can be cured through Bone Broth. If bone broth isn't organic, from the research I've seen, it contains massive amounts of Round-Up (there's a glycine, glyphosate displacement that occurs and glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up actually becomes part of the structure according to the theory by Anthony Samsel, which is strongly supported by science studies -- yes, actual studies in very reputable science journals). Dr Axe didn't mention he was pushing non-organic bone broth for around a year. That can do more harm than good.
There are "money makers" on both sides of the aisle, Holistic and traditional. There was a long term study in Europe a few years ago about how Physical Therapy (1000s of participants, double blind) has just as good of outcomes as shoulder surgery for rotator cuff tears. Yet, in the US, we are so quick to go under the knife for this condition. That's a scam in most cases too.
We see Guardasil commercials all the time. Yet certain Pediatrics counsels are against the vaccine. Why? Because some teenagers are dying from the shots (of course these are being found as coincidences by the drug companies). https://www.acpeds.org/the-college-speaks/position-statements/health-issues/new-concerns-about-the-human-papillomavirus-vaccine There is a Japanese substance (derived from mushrooms, it's a chemical extract) called AHCC. It's a natural, very safe antiviral. It has been shown in studies to kill the HPV virus in 50% of the time in the short term. So why isn't this being used to eradicate the HPV virus? Money. That's why. Money. It's all about money in the US, not consumer's best interest. That AHCC doesn't generate much money, so the research is limited. A few US and Canadian universities have done limited studies on it and can't find more funding. Yet it also shows great promise for cancer and Chronic Fatigue. Oh yeah, and the pharmaceutical companies new answer to Fibromyalgia -- an antiviral mixed with one of the failed drugs they are trying now. This is supposed to be introduced this year or in 2018. Well, they learned that from the Holistic community. Many believe that Fibro starts with a virus and has an underlying virus suppressing the immune system. Monolaurin (a natural antiviral from coconuts) has been dramatically helping people with Fibro for years. So has SF-722 and now AHCC. These (possibly) kill the underlying virus and AHCC dramatically boosts the action of natural killer cells. There are a couple of Pharmaceutical companies already pushing AHCC (for about 10 times the normal cost).
Methyl Bs help people with Chronic illness. They were developed for those that have the underlying genetic defect of MTHFR. The first to produce these was the pharmaceutical giants. When they were found to help people with Fibro, the price was ghastly. Since the patent has dropped off, they are now reasonable in price (under $20). When the pharmaceutical companies sold Methyl Bs, they were very, very expensive. I, for one, would like to see more independent testing on supplements (to make sure you're getting what you paid for). But at the same time, whenever large pharmaceutical companies produce a simple supplement, the price goes up 10 to 100 times what it should be, so I'm grateful for supplement companies with excellent reputations like Thorne or Pure Encapsulations or Now Foods. The best you can do is make sure they follow GMP and NSF standards.
Until all of us question what you're being told (by everyone) and being your own health advocate (and pushing for our government to stop listening to lobby dollars and do what's right), we're all worse off. Doctors certainly don't monitor themselves very much, Holistic or Traditional.
"8. Limitations and biases
•
Additives were studied separately. In reality food composition is complex with many inter-nutrient interactions.
•
Most of the studies were performed in vitro, which is a far distance from the multicomplex situation in vivo.
•
Immortalized, epithelial cell-lines of human origin cannot replace the human small bowel in permeability studies.
•
Study of multiple food composition, in vivo, in the presence of microbiota is more accurate.
•
Many bioavailability studies originate in the pharmaceutical domain and data is of little relevance to nutritional.
•
The observations presented have stronger associative than cause and effect relationships."
Yep, definitive, 100% water tight proof.7 -
NotEmphatic wrote: »I'm confused on how being skeptical of holistic practitioners = CICO fundamentalists. They are two unrelated concepts.
My argument is about two things:
The pursuit of knowledge and the inhibitors on this forum of those who try to learn.
I don't support zealots, or snake oil merchants and I don't support shouty people.
The OP may start on one path towards knowledge and may realise that she goes on to study real science.
Good and great!
I bet the ancient CICO-style, fixed opinion ancient ones were the same ones who offered hemlock to Socrates and screamed at Galileo to put downed his god-less telescope!
Yet, you seem to support Fung. So, yeah - color me confused, too.
6
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