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Exercise as a punishment in middle schoolers
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There is literally no possible scenario where it is justifiable that a teacher make sexually suggestive remarks, gestures, noises, or anything toward a young student. None. It really doesn’t make a lick of difference how the student feels about it. It is unequivocally disgusting and the creep shouldn’t have been allowed around children in the first place.8
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canadianlbs wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist
the one that says 'you don't wolf-whistle 12-yo kids?' or the one that says 'especially when you're in an authority position relating to them, and it's a 'relationship' that they can't opt out of?'
I could have told him to f*** off then and was known for saying as much to other teachers. I spend more time in detention and in-house suspension than I did at classes sometimes. I was pretty much then as I am now. I didn't bother mouthing off to him in response because I really didn't give a s***. He was basically a fair guy with a good sense of humor who didn't bother people but had an old school way of getting certain points across. Of course now, if something like that happened in today's public school environment it would have been an amber alert, a front page newspaper story, an internet smear to last a lifetime and snowflakes of all ages would have been melting away and screaming at the sky. Glad it happened 40 years ago for God's sake when every reactionary didn't have an ax to grind.
I was in school 40 years ago and it being okay for teachers to behave inappropriately towards students was not a thing back then. In fact our coach was fired for making a joke about some girl's sweat pants tie reminding him of a tampon string, along with other inappropriate and harassing behaviors towards female students.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.0 -
maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.0 -
This isn't punishment, but a corrective and instructive measure. Military forces have this ingrained throughout their lives:
Not paying attention? 20 pushups
Last man in line? 20 pushups
Fall asleep in class? 20 pushups
My 9 year old son gets corrected for not paying attention in baseball and the team runs laps.
Punishment on the other hand incorporates an element of retribution.
Except that elementary school kids in gym class are not on a team and are not in the military. They are supposed to be getting educated along with participating in physical activity. This removes the education aspect in favor of a retributive measure. Athletic kids will do fine and probably will blow it off as easy, while the less athletic kids will be the ones who will find it miserable. Perhaps some of those kids will develop a distaste for exercise as a result. Maybe it will take them decades to develop a taste for it.
Ask me how I know.
Those who are inclined to develop a distaste for exercise probably don't like gym even if it is sports. I didn't. I think the approach the teacher is taking is reasonable.0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
That's what is presented as the argument. Personally I don't think a day or 2 of calisthenics is enough of a punishment for cheating. I think that teacher needs to learn better methods of dealing with his/her class. I'm never ok with punishing the group for the actions of a couple of miscreats. And we aren't addressing the op's original question. I think calisthenics as punishment is appropriate IN THIS SETTING. If you made the math class do pushups, that would be a different thing. It's unlikely that a day of less fun will turn the average student off of physical activities. I preferred it myself. Don't really like games, I preferred solo activities.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
While failing to live up to your word may be less of a problem than the promised punishment, it's STILL poor form as a teacher. It's important to be fair and consistent with discipline. Threatening punishments that you don't (or can't) follow through on is unprofessional.3 -
rileysowner wrote: »This isn't punishment, but a corrective and instructive measure. Military forces have this ingrained throughout their lives:
Not paying attention? 20 pushups
Last man in line? 20 pushups
Fall asleep in class? 20 pushups
My 9 year old son gets corrected for not paying attention in baseball and the team runs laps.
Punishment on the other hand incorporates an element of retribution.
Except that elementary school kids in gym class are not on a team and are not in the military. They are supposed to be getting educated along with participating in physical activity. This removes the education aspect in favor of a retributive measure. Athletic kids will do fine and probably will blow it off as easy, while the less athletic kids will be the ones who will find it miserable. Perhaps some of those kids will develop a distaste for exercise as a result. Maybe it will take them decades to develop a taste for it.
Ask me how I know.
Those who are inclined to develop a distaste for exercise probably don't like gym even if it is sports. I didn't. I think the approach the teacher is taking is reasonable.
I'd propose those who don't like to move developed the behavior before gym class.3 -
It's not uncommon for a child to come home and slightly exaggerate what was said by the teacher. I would do this as a child because I didn't like what the teacher said. The children I nanny for do this all the time. They may have gotten in trouble at school and have received an appropriate punishment in return and therefor they are upset and exaggerate the situation to me. 9/10 times this is the case. It is possible that these issues have been going on during gym class for awhile now and the teacher has finally put his/her foot down. No more games until we can all play a game appropriately and not cheat. When I was in school if a group of kids were causing a problem it ruined it for the rest of the class. It sucked, but I found that an appropriate thing for the teacher to do. I highly doubt they won't play games anymore this year. I'm thinking using the weight room is temporary to show the kids that they need to listen and play fair in order to play the fun games instead of doing solo work. I think this is similar to a teacher in the classroom saying no more group work for the rest of the year because the students aren't listening and working when they are together, so they get to work alone instead of enjoying group work time. Of course I wasn't in the gym class and can't say exactly what happened and I have no history with this teacher. But I can say I remember several times when I was in 6-8th grade and we had to use the weight room and do some work instead of playing a group game due to bad behavior- and I can't say that it has given me any negative views on these types of exercise.4
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clicketykeys wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
While failing to live up to your word may be less of a problem than the promised punishment, it's STILL poor form as a teacher. It's important to be fair and consistent with discipline. Threatening punishments that you don't (or can't) follow through on is unprofessional.
I'm unclear as to why he wouldn't be able to follow through. His "threat" was they needed to learn how to play without cheating or they wouldn't be allowed to play any more. How is that not a statement that parents all over the world use all the time with their kids? If you hear that do you hear "that kid will never be able to play any more" or do you here "that parent is going to instruct the kid how to play without cheating but until they learn they won't be able to play". Personally I hear the latter and I think that is a "threat" that is likely to be kept. I'm not sure why people are reading it in the most negative light possible.5 -
maura_tasi wrote: »It's not uncommon for a child to come home and slightly exaggerate what was said by the teacher. I would do this as a child because I didn't like what the teacher said. The children I nanny for do this all the time. They may have gotten in trouble at school and have received an appropriate punishment in return and therefor they are upset and exaggerate the situation to me. 9/10 times this is the case. It is possible that these issues have been going on during gym class for awhile now and the teacher has finally put his/her foot down. No more games until we can all play a game appropriately and not cheat. When I was in school if a group of kids were causing a problem it ruined it for the rest of the class. It sucked, but I found that an appropriate thing for the teacher to do. I highly doubt they won't play games anymore this year. I'm thinking using the weight room is temporary to show the kids that they need to listen and play fair in order to play the fun games instead of doing solo work. I think this is similar to a teacher in the classroom saying no more group work for the rest of the year because the students aren't listening and working when they are together, so they get to work alone instead of enjoying group work time. Of course I wasn't in the gym class and can't say exactly what happened and I have no history with this teacher. But I can say I remember several times when I was in 6-8th grade and we had to use the weight room and do some work instead of playing a group game due to bad behavior- and I can't say that it has given me any negative views on these types of exercise.
Hyperbole when communicating with children who are approaching physical but not social adulthood is a very useful tool3 -
maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »maryannprt wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I have two children, currently young enough that they are not yet in school. When they do attend school I hope that the school they attend has teachers that are empowered with the ability to provide disciplinary action. They shouldn't be allowed to hit children or lock them in solitary but they certainly should be able to make them run some laps if they mouth off in gym class I mean come on.
I want my children to be resilient because the real world requires resilience. I want them to have discipline because being disciplined is how you become an effective adult. How are they going to become resilient if they aren't made to cope with situations that make them uncomfortable? How are they going to become disciplined if they cannot be punished for misbehavior? If there is an opportunity to discipline them for misbehavior in a way that is actually beneficial to their health while introducing a level of discomfort they then have to cope with then thumbs high up from me.
If we protect them all throughout school years from any sort of discomfort how are they going to survive the inevitable kick to the gut that real life will be giving them at some point. Are we protecting them or are we protecting ourselves because we don't like to see them uncomfortable or upset? Am I really that crazy?
Here's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject. To my mind, this discussion isn't about discipline, or teachers having authority in the classroom, or children being resilient, or protecting children from real-world consequences.
Who is saying that children should be "protect[ed] ... from any sort of discomfort" anyway? If you're claiming that I'm arguing this, then you are incorrect. It's maddening to me that I'm being interpreted this way. I listed multiple options for disciplining students, and one of my options was even to change the coursework for a few days! How would the options that I presented, including conferences, extra homework, and the like, count as "shielding them from situations that make them uncomfortable"? How did my listing multiple punishments somehow come to mean they "cannot be punished for their misbehavior"?
I've got 4 sons who are all fine young men, including 2 Eagle Scouts. We've dealt with many teachers and many situations. I don't think I've ever complained about discipline any teacher used on any of my sons.
This discussion is, as stated in the OP, should exercise be used as punishment? I still say no. It will make some children (not all, as many of you have pointed out) hate exercise. I've seen it in myself and in many of my friends and family. It's counterproductive toward the goal of making young people enjoy and appreciate exercise, and I doubt its efficacy as a punishment.
Alright fair enough I don't want to mischaracterize you and I certainly don't want to have some sort of parent-off about who has the better guiding principles for their children.
Out of curiosity if a student was goofing off in math class, passing notes...being disrespectful. Do you think it would be appropriate if the teacher took away their notepad that they were using for passing notes and put in front of them a pop-quiz of math problems and instructed the student to complete it by end of class? Or would you view that as inappropriately using math as punishment in a way that would turn the student away from math in the future?
Is the teacher having the whole class do nothing but pop quizzes for the rest of the year? Because that's what has been presented as the scenario in this PE class. Some students misbehaved. Therefore the whole class will do pop quizzes every day for the rest of the year. They won't learn or perform any other activity, just pop quizzes. I like pop quizzes, I'm good at math. Bring it on, teach. Plenty of other kids would be turned off on math forever. Lousy teaching.
Is the PE coach actually having them do bodyweight exercises for the rest of the year? I doubt it very much. But if they did then yes I would agree that would be inappropriate. Big difference between telling a kid "eat your brocolli or you will never get any more icecream" and actually preventing a child from ever eating icecream until the age of 18. I think we can all recognize what the likely meaning of the statement was right, it was a statement of do X or you won't get Y and we will do Z instead until you do even if that is the rest of the year. That doesn't mean they are going to do it for the rest of the year.
That's what is presented as the argument. Personally I don't think a day or 2 of calisthenics is enough of a punishment for cheating. I think that teacher needs to learn better methods of dealing with his/her class. I'm never ok with punishing the group for the actions of a couple of miscreats. And we aren't addressing the op's original question. I think calisthenics as punishment is appropriate IN THIS SETTING. If you made the math class do pushups, that would be a different thing. It's unlikely that a day of less fun will turn the average student off of physical activities. I preferred it myself. Don't really like games, I preferred solo activities.
I agree with you on all of that. I interpreted that the coach was going to be instructing the kids on what they needed to do in order to be able to play again and that would be the constructive part, but until then they would be doing body weight exercises which is basically a default for a PE class. I think if a math teacher had a student drop and give them 20 then yeah that would be inappropriate.3 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell
I'd leave the judgement about whether it was creepy or misogynist up to the recipient of the comments rather than the person who read a sentence about it 40 years later.
Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist and that reached it.
Blah blah blah, something about appropriating her story to suit your political agenda, blah blah blah, something about ignoring the opinion of the woman who lived it and you not having the right to invalidate her feelings, something something patriarchy something something suppressing her voice etc.4 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell
I'd leave the judgement about whether it was creepy or misogynist up to the recipient of the comments rather than the person who read a sentence about it 40 years later.
Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist and that reached it.
Blah blah blah, something about appropriating her story to suit your political agenda, blah blah blah, something about ignoring the opinion of the woman who lived it and you not having the right to invalidate her feelings, something something patriarchy something something suppressing her voice etc.
Indeed, from the telling of the story, it was clear that she perceived, likely because it was communicated, that the whistle was from disapproval and not from arousal.
In some way he communicated verbally or nonverbally what his intention was. Perhaps her perception was mistaken, but we'll never know for sure.3 -
Alatariel75 wrote: »In the seventh grade we had to learn square dancing in gym class at the beginning of the year. After we moved on to other things (field hockey, rope climbing, obstacle courses, effing soccer).
If anyone misbehaved in gym class after they'd learned the square dancing, the teacher would call the offender to the head of the class and force them to show some square dancing moves while the teacher clapped rhythmically and called out "Now doe-see-doe without a partner!""Promenade head high!" and so forth. It was, like really embarrassing.
Would that have been okay with you guys or would you have written an angry letter to the principal?
As far as I know, no one in the class ever sought out square dancing again as a hobby or a pastime.
Correlative or causative?
Inspired work by your gym teacher. Marvelous.
Also he used to whistle at me when I wore tight pink pants.
Aaaaaand you ruined it.
What a creep
He was trying to teach me a lesson about modesty. This was the seventies and a sense of decorum was still encouraged.
Still creepy, also regressive and misogynist as hell
I'd leave the judgement about whether it was creepy or misogynist up to the recipient of the comments rather than the person who read a sentence about it 40 years later.
Yeah, nah. There's an objective level to creepy and misogynist and that reached it.
Blah blah blah, something about appropriating her story to suit your political agenda, blah blah blah, something about ignoring the opinion of the woman who lived it and you not having the right to invalidate her feelings, something something patriarchy something something suppressing her voice etc.
I kind of wish people stopped trying to apply objective standards to clearly subjective things.4 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I agree with you on all of that. I interpreted that the coach was going to be instructing the kids on what they needed to do in order to be able to play again and that would be the constructive part, but until then they would be doing body weight exercises which is basically a default for a PE class. I think if a math teacher had a student drop and give them 20 then yeah that would be inappropriate.
I laughed when I read this because I've done a lot of teaching at every academic level over the years. And if a whole class is squirrelly, we take a quick (2-5 minute break) and do some exercises; stretches, jumping jacks, jog in place, etc. Now, I've never had to do this to college students, but even high school kids sometimes just suffer from way too much pent up energy to focus.
Interestingly enough, kids with ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, are now frequently given a pass to a "sensory room" in their schools. These "sensory rooms" are full of equipment for physical activity. When a local school removed daily PE for elementary school, the number of kids going to the "Sensory Room" went up by a factor of 10.4 -
As a person who actually WORKS in the school system with 6th-8th graders, I see nothing wrong with the teacher's approach. The STUDENTS make the choice to behave or do something that maybe less fun physically. Lol, they are SUPPOSED to be physically exercising anyway, so how is it "punishment". Kids don't get better or more "educated" avoiding doing exercises that are "hard". They just flat out avoid them altogether if they suck at it.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »I agree with you on all of that. I interpreted that the coach was going to be instructing the kids on what they needed to do in order to be able to play again and that would be the constructive part, but until then they would be doing body weight exercises which is basically a default for a PE class. I think if a math teacher had a student drop and give them 20 then yeah that would be inappropriate.
I laughed when I read this because I've done a lot of teaching at every academic level over the years. And if a whole class is squirrelly, we take a quick (2-5 minute break) and do some exercises; stretches, jumping jacks, jog in place, etc. Now, I've never had to do this to college students, but even high school kids sometimes just suffer from way too much pent up energy to focus.
Interestingly enough, kids with ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, are now frequently given a pass to a "sensory room" in their schools. These "sensory rooms" are full of equipment for physical activity. When a local school removed daily PE for elementary school, the number of kids going to the "Sensory Room" went up by a factor of 10.
Come on though there is a big difference between allowing people to get up out of their chairs and stretch if they choose to do so and telling an individual student to do a hard physical activity like pushups against their will in a setting that has nothing to do with physical activity.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I agree with you on all of that. I interpreted that the coach was going to be instructing the kids on what they needed to do in order to be able to play again and that would be the constructive part, but until then they would be doing body weight exercises which is basically a default for a PE class. I think if a math teacher had a student drop and give them 20 then yeah that would be inappropriate.
I laughed when I read this because I've done a lot of teaching at every academic level over the years. And if a whole class is squirrelly, we take a quick (2-5 minute break) and do some exercises; stretches, jumping jacks, jog in place, etc. Now, I've never had to do this to college students, but even high school kids sometimes just suffer from way too much pent up energy to focus.
Interestingly enough, kids with ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, are now frequently given a pass to a "sensory room" in their schools. These "sensory rooms" are full of equipment for physical activity. When a local school removed daily PE for elementary school, the number of kids going to the "Sensory Room" went up by a factor of 10.
Come on though there is a big difference between allowing people to get up out of their chairs and stretch if they choose to do so and telling an individual student to do a hard physical activity like pushups against their will in a setting that has nothing to do with physical activity.
What are you talking about? Weren't we discussing PE class?0 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Aaron_K123 wrote: »I agree with you on all of that. I interpreted that the coach was going to be instructing the kids on what they needed to do in order to be able to play again and that would be the constructive part, but until then they would be doing body weight exercises which is basically a default for a PE class. I think if a math teacher had a student drop and give them 20 then yeah that would be inappropriate.
I laughed when I read this because I've done a lot of teaching at every academic level over the years. And if a whole class is squirrelly, we take a quick (2-5 minute break) and do some exercises; stretches, jumping jacks, jog in place, etc. Now, I've never had to do this to college students, but even high school kids sometimes just suffer from way too much pent up energy to focus.
Interestingly enough, kids with ADHD, Sensory Processing Disorder, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, are now frequently given a pass to a "sensory room" in their schools. These "sensory rooms" are full of equipment for physical activity. When a local school removed daily PE for elementary school, the number of kids going to the "Sensory Room" went up by a factor of 10.
Come on though there is a big difference between allowing people to get up out of their chairs and stretch if they choose to do so and telling an individual student to do a hard physical activity like pushups against their will in a setting that has nothing to do with physical activity.
Hmm. I can't say I make activity optional if this is the situation I face. Honestly, it's a classroom management technique because focus gets lost when people have too much energy and have been trying to keep their brains on one idea too long.
But no, I wouldn't ever single-out a student to "punish" that student in a science class. I teach, I am not a drill sergeant.
What I was indicating is that the number of students displaying problematic behavior absolutely skyrocketed when they were all deprived of regular physical activity (the only daily recess is 15 minutes after a 15 minute lunch), and the primary management technique the school employed was to give problem students.. physical activity! Kind of crazy. Meanwhile I take time out of lessons to make the students move around because, frankly, they just don't pay attention and they get into all kinds of mischief when they don't.
Going back to team games in PE, this actually becomes a big problem with some group activities where a game will require a large amount of waiting for some students. I mentioned before dodgeball being really dull for people tagged out early, but any sort of baseball/softball/t-ball can be rough, or basketball if there aren't enough courts, tennis for the same reason etc. If kids are bored AND suffering from pent-up energy the capacity for mischief is infinite.
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