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American-seniors-are-sicker-than-global-peers story.

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  • Posts: 8,934 Member
    From the W.H.O. from their paper on overall efficiency of healthcare systems of member states.
    http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
    Scroll down to get the rankings. U.S.A. ranked 37th.

    A comparison of quality of care of the U.S. healthcare system to other countries.

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-start

    Healthcare expenditure rankings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

    The U.S. healthcare system of the most expensive on the world by a factor of 1.5 to the next most expensive. Overall quality and efficiency of care rank is 37th. What conclusions would you draw from this about U.S. healthcare, the government, the providers and the insurance and pharmaceutical companies compared to the other most industrialized nations of the world?


  • Posts: 4,855 Member
    edited August 2018
    mmapags wrote: »
    From the W.H.O. from their paper on overall efficiency of healthcare systems of member states.
    http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf
    Scroll down to get the rankings. U.S.A. ranked 37th.

    A comparison of quality of care of the U.S. healthcare system to other countries.

    https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/quality-u-s-healthcare-system-compare-countries/#item-start

    Healthcare expenditure rankings.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_health_expenditure_per_capita

    The U.S. healthcare system of the most expensive on the world by a factor of 1.5 to the next most expensive. Overall quality and efficiency of care rank is 37th. What conclusions would you draw from this about U.S. healthcare, the government, the providers and the insurance and pharmaceutical companies compared to the other most industrialized nations of the world?


    Bingo.

    I would love to see a detailed reconciliation of the difference between the US cost/person vs the industrialized world average. As an experienced business analyst/cost accountant, give me $750k, unlimited access to data and in a year, I'd have a full report :smile:

    Might question the 1.5 factor vs the next highest. From the chart in the article linked Switzerland isn't far behind

    dcvb1n92olu7.png

    We do have a cost problem vs the rest of the industrialized world.
  • Posts: 9,304 Member
    I'm not sure how much pap smears, FOBT's, vaccinations, skin checks cost in US - but anyway my post that you quoted wasn't arguing about relative costs of health care, it was just answering post above me which claimed it was the lifestyle - poor diet and lack of excercise.

    Lifestyle is more than just diet and exercise - the biggest lifestyle choice you can make for your health is don't smoke.
    And don't drink to excess, and sun safety.

    And there are cancers and other diseases with no correlation to lifestyle and there are genetic risks etc.

    My point was that health outcomes are not as simple as just diet and exercise. They are a factor but not the whole story.

    altnough, if 6 out of 7 Americans have access to health care (your figure) then 1/7 do not - that is millions of people without access to primary health care.
  • Posts: 25,763 Member

    And even people with fully paid health care die.

    The bottom line question is how are people responding with what they have? Are they making health a priority or not? As I said before, it's hard to expect others to care more than one cares for themselves.

    And I get it. I've survived some major health issues in my 20s, in the era of HMOs.

    And I get it, it's tempting to just say *kitten* it and eat little chocolate donuts for breakfast everyday. (Well, not really everyday, usually just those weeks I was on-call and out late. More tempting than keeping some almonds and an apple in my car like I do today.)

    It takes some mental energy. And I still may be taken out by a motorist who decides they don't need to stop at stop signs anymore, even though I wear a day-glow yellow bike jersey with matching bright shoes, and lights on the front and back of my bike.

    I'm not promised tomorrow. None of us are.

    I don't expect SOCIETY to take care of me. That's MY job. Now if the motorist takes me out due to their inattentiveness at stop signs, I expect them (the motorist) to make me and my family whole. But that's not a social responsibility, it's on the at fault motorist for running over the cyclist who had the right of way, for example. (Just thinking of a near miss this weekend by some knucklehead who didn't stop at a "T" intersection where my group had the right of way crossing. Two of us went down avoiding the motorist who wasn't paying attention. All it cost was a pair of bike shorts, some cuts and scrapes and a trip to the LBS to sort out a bent derailleur. We were back on the road Sunday.)

    So I'm just asking for people to do their part, which is take care of what is in their control. No one is forced to smoke. No one is forced to eat little chocolate donuts, breakfast, lunch and dinner. Few are forced to sit on the couch all weekend and do nothing. They may not be able to go out and ride 50-100 miles in a day or weekend. But they probably can get up and walk around the block a few times a day or similar. Or at least they can park furthest from the market and walk to the door and stop using the drive through.

    How much would we have to take care of those who genetics dealt a bad hand if those who really have no excuse would do their part and fix what is in their control right now, such as diet, exercise and bad habits like smoking?

    Well that, and what was mentioned above, where we spend so much at the end of life to grant a few low quality days, weeks or months of life.

    If I'm terminal, don't go to heroic measures to give me a few low quality days. Buy me a nice bottle of scotch, and keep me well fed and let me go comfortably. Not hooked to a bunch of machines that are sucking mine or someone's wallet dry.

    If I can't live, I don't want to be alive. Hooked to every machine that goes bing isn't living.

    I don't think anybody in this thread is expecting to eliminate death. The point is -- are American seniors sicker than their global peers (as the title claims) and, if so, why?

    I've never wanted to eat chocolate donuts for breakfast every day, let alone for every meal. I'm honestly not even sure what that has to do with the subject. Are people really doing that? I'd have to see something indicating that was the case before I concluded that is why our seniors are sicker than others.
  • Posts: 25,763 Member

    What does it have to do with the subject? Many eat at the drive through or equally as bad choices, then wonder why they need to be on statins, BP meds, diabetes meds, etc. Their exercise routine consists of running off at the mouth and jumping to conclusions. And when they are sick, they want to take a pill and have it fixed.

    Guys who need Viagra probably have some health conditions that at the very least are not helping. At worst, the problem is a symptom of a much bigger issue.

    But take the little blue pill instead of doing table pushbacks and making other lifestyle changes that would get things going.

    So how much of our resources are devoted to addressing things that are totally preventable? That's how it relates.

    Most people are sympathetic to those to whom genetics has dealt a bad hand. But what percentage is that?

    People suggest we don't care for those without coverage. Maybe we have cared, but too many have stepped up to the trough and are needy not due to bad luck, but bad choices.

    But it's politically incorrect to suggest that we might want to address both sides of the coin, not just the bad luck side.

    That's my point. I hope it's clear.

    I'm not accusing you of political incorrectness. I think you're addressing points that others have made. Your responses don't seem to have much relation to what I'm actually typing here.
  • Posts: 852 Member
    I'm not accusing you of political incorrectness. I think you're addressing points that others have made. Your responses don't seem to have much relation to what I'm actually typing here.

    Okay, so because you cannot see the link, I'm not supposed to participate?
  • Posts: 25,763 Member

    Okay, so because you cannot see the link, I'm not supposed to participate?

    Whoa, when did I say you shouldn't participate? I never wrote anything close to that.

    Again, your responses don't have much to do with what I'm actually typing. And no, that's not me saying you shouldn't participate. That's me sharing my *impression* of your posts, which is perfectly compatible with your continued and robust participation in this thread and any other thread you wish to contribute to.
  • Posts: 852 Member

    Whoa, when did I say you shouldn't participate? I never wrote anything close to that.

    Again, your responses don't have much to do with what I'm actually typing. And no, that's not me saying you shouldn't participate. That's me sharing my *impression* of your posts, which is perfectly compatible with your continued and robust participation in this thread and any other thread you wish to contribute to.

    Well, probably because I was answering others. But I did answer you, and explained how my position related to the topic.

    I presume you read my first post in the thread, where I was answering another person.

    Now if I need to clarify, I'm happy to do so. But to just say my answer doesn't address what you said doesn't really seem as if you are asking for clarification. It comes across as you are simply saying the answer isn't good. (It may or may not be.)

    If you have a particular and specific point you would like me to clarify, I'd be happy to do so.

    Perhaps I've not been clear. I'm always willing to clarify if my thoughts are not clear.

    If it's simply a matter of disagreement, well, I'm not sure what I can do about that.

    You do you, and I'll do me :smiley:
  • Posts: 25,763 Member

    Well, probably because I was answering others. But I did answer you, and explained how my position related to the topic.

    I presume you read my first post in the thread, where I was answering another person.

    Now if I need to clarify, I'm happy to do so. But to just say my answer doesn't address what you said doesn't really seem as if you are asking for clarification. It comes across as you are simply saying the answer isn't good. (It may or may not be.)

    If you have a particular and specific point you would like me to clarify, I'd be happy to do so.

    Perhaps I've not been clear. I'm always willing to clarify if my thoughts are not clear.

    If it's simply a matter of disagreement, well, I'm not sure what I can do about that.

    You do you, and I'll do me :smiley:

    Well, let me clarify. Whenever I write to someone that I don't understand why they're writing something in particular to me, I'm always trying to communicate simply that I don't understand. That gives the person a chance to restate it (if they wish) or simply decide it isn't worth the time to try to communicate with me. It never means "You aren't supposed to participate in the conversation."

    For the specific points where I said I didn't understand why you were writing something, those were not disagreements. I wrote what I meant: that I didn't understand how your responses related to what I was writing. If I simply disagreed, I would have written that.

    If you were answering others in your posts that were quote responses to me, that would certainly contribute to my confusion and if that is part of it, then I apologize for not understanding you were addressing other people in those posts.

    At this point, there seems to be such an impasse between what I'm writing and what you're reading that I'm not sure it's worthwhile to continue, so I just hope you have a nice day.
  • Posts: 852 Member

    Well, let me clarify. Whenever I write to someone that I don't understand why they're writing something in particular to me, I'm always trying to communicate simply that I don't understand. That gives the person a chance to restate it (if they wish) or simply decide it isn't worth the time to try to communicate with me. It never means "You aren't supposed to participate in the conversation."

    For the specific points where I said I didn't understand why you were writing something, those were not disagreements. I wrote what I meant: that I didn't understand how your responses related to what I was writing. If I simply disagreed, I would have written that.

    If you were answering others in your posts that were quote responses to me, that would certainly contribute to my confusion and if that is part of it, then I apologize for not understanding you were addressing other people in those posts.

    At this point, there seems to be such an impasse between what I'm writing and what you're reading that I'm not sure it's worthwhile to continue, so I just hope you have a nice day.

    Okay, you asked about my statement that we all die. I didn't really think anyone presumed I thought someone might think we could live forever.

    But I think I brought it back around to quality of life. We may not live forever, but what quality of life could we have?

    I believe that much of that is incumbent on the person and their choices.

    As I said, in other ways, if you choose to smoke unfiltered Camels, watch Honey Boo Boo while eating pork rinds and washing it down with Natty Light (after all, health) then you probably won't have high quality years at the end of your life.

    If you eat less and move more, odds are, you'll have more years and more quality years. You have better odds of not dealing with numerous chronic conditions that the Camel smoker described above may have.

    The individual has a great deal of control over his choices. He cannot choose his genetics, but he can choose how he lives his life.

    Spend some time in a Wal*Mart or watching people at a fast food outlet or a C-store and you will see a large number of people choosing to ignore the professional advice and smoke, dip, chew, eat crap, often move less by choosing the drive through, etc.

    And I've been clear that I'm talking about those who have a choice. I don't know of many babies who are born with a nicotine addiction and have to follow in dad's footsteps and smoke Camels with him. Crack babies, yes. Nicotine babies, can't say I've heard of them.

    We spend 12 or 13 years teaching kids to not smoke, choose healthy foods, move, have safe sex, and so on. But some ignore the advice and choose otherwise.

    When they get older, they are going to cost more.

    How does it relate to the topic. Those choices add up. At some point, you have to pay the piper. My comments address the perception that it's because 1/7th of the population doesn't have access to healthcare. How much access to healthcare do you need to follow the advice of your 7th grade health book?

    Don't smoke Camels, don't be a couch potato because life and your body is a use it or lose it situation. If you want to have a relatively good old age, you need to develop good habits when you are young and it's relatively easy to develop those habits.

    That's my point.

    People have had a lifetime to develop good habits. If they don't, there's no quick or inexpensive fix for it when you are 60+ years old. We have more opportunity and I believe many, maybe most let it slip away.

    What have people done with the opportunity they had when they were young and how do those choices impact them today when they are senior citizens?

    I don't know how else to make it clear how this relates to the topic of American Seniors are Sicker than Global Peers.
  • Posts: 852 Member
    If most of us with health issues have them due to our Way Of Eating in part or in total I think that factor has to be a key cause.

    Like some forms of blindness ED can have a mental cause but for the most part it's due to failing vascular health.

    As I sit here for my annual wellness exam clearly life style choices are a huge factor in the health of seniors.

    I came back from my 6 month post T2D diagnosis visit.

    My doctor has again congratulated me on taking it seriously and taking the steps needed to get my A1C from 7.3 to 5.4 in May and yesterday it was 5.1.

    He again said he wished most of his patients would take it as seriously as I do.

    I don't say that to compliment myself. I say it because it demonstrates that most people DON'T control what they can control.

    I don't think he needs his patients to upload a spreadsheet of their daily fasting BG readings as I did yesterday. But he would like his patients to take it seriously and test, and make better diet and exercise choices.

    If people are not adopting the habits when they are younger, it gets harder to adopt them when older and faced with ever more serious problems.

    Most people do not choose to control the things they can control is what I'm hearing from his frustration with the lack of effort in the majority of his patients facing similar medical circumstances.
  • Posts: 8,159 Member

    I came back from my 6 month post T2D diagnosis visit.

    My doctor has again congratulated me on taking it seriously and taking the steps needed to get my A1C from 7.3 to 5.4 in May and yesterday it was 5.1.

    He again said he wished most of his patients would take it as seriously as I do.

    I don't say that to compliment myself. I say it because it demonstrates that most people DON'T control what they can control.

    I don't think he needs his patients to upload a spreadsheet of their daily fasting BG readings as I did yesterday. But he would like his patients to take it seriously and test, and make better diet and exercise choices.

    If people are not adopting the habits when they are younger, it gets harder to adopt them when older and faced with ever more serious problems.

    Most people do not choose to control the things they can control is what I'm hearing from his frustration with the lack of effort in the majority of his patients facing similar medical circumstances.

    I picked up on the same frustration at the clinic this week. It took me to realize I was eating for an early death before I could bring myself to eating for better health.

    Keep up the good work and best of continued success.
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