CICO the lastest fad diet
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Probably won't hear from OP again. Just wanting to get under others skin. Possibly on another site trying to sell a canned gimmick!7
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Probably won't hear from OP again. Just wanting to get under others skin. Possibly on another site trying to sell a canned gimmick!
?? I've already responded once. I didn't write the article, just thought it was odd and might be appreciated here.
Chill out man. Have some more caffeine.13 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I do firmly buy into CICO - but I have to admit I love seeing articles like this and others because it so ticks off all the right people on here.
So you dislike certain posters more than you love the truth? Cool.
Btw, as one of the posters that invariably jumps into these threads, I usually find these discussions fun (if often ridiculous), that's why we participate, probably.
What in the article is not true?1 -
surely CICO is not a diet in itself, rather the principle behind weight gain / weight loss?
How individuals choose to interpret that message is up to them. i've found that to stick on plan
I have to eat satisfying foods (good protein) and bulky foods or else I'll be hungry. I choose not to eat
cake, pizza, fried chicken and so on because I know I'll just be hungry
Long term you would be healthier eating a more nutritious diet full of vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, fibre
good fats and complete proteins
but if you can get to a healthy weight by counting calories then you'll do better than being overweight.
I reached 140lbs overweight and got really sick (still am) but have dropped over 50 now by calorie counting
and have stopped the bingeing as a result. I do eat healthy foods but can have a treat from time to time.
Think the article was confounding multiple issues of physics (energy equation), nutrition (what foods nourish the organism and allow it to flourish) and human behaviour.
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diet craze?
that's how you lose weight! :facepalm:
edit: granted you might be a little hungry if you eat JUST junk food all day lol.10 -
CICO doesn't move product or sell like the latest diet "fads". All diets adhere to CICO, the human body CANNOT create energy from nothing nor make ingested energy just disappear. Energy balance always triumphs14
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russelljam08 wrote: »CICO doesn't move product or sell like the latest diet "fads". All diets adhere to CICO, the human body CANNOT create energy from nothing nor make ingested energy just disappear. Energy balance always triumphs
People make money from this site.6 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »I got called a liar on another MFP discussion for saying there's people that just count calories and disregard nutrition.
And the author of this article is as confused on the subject as you are.
" Sandon pointed out that "canned diet plans rarely work and are hard to stick with."
Instead, she advocates forgoing the "quick-fix mentality" in favor of a long-term resolution to embrace a "combination of healthy eating and exercise."
For example, Sandon said, "Reduce calories by cutting back on portion sizes or use pre-portioned foods, such as frozen meals, to cut back on total food intake.""
Pretty much the standard advice given here.
Different person quoted
""Severely restricting calories or food groups, along with rapid weight loss, are likely to backfire for many reasons, and the dieter will be left feeling frustrated," she added."
Again, this seems to be the tone of those promoting calorie counting.
I'm not confused at all. I was just told previously "Literally no one on earth tracks CICO and ignores nutrition" and that's not true. I'm totally on board with CICO being a surefire way to lose weight; no argument there.
I think there are more than few that track calories and ignore nutrition. Especially when just starting out. I think some add lower calorie nutrient dense foods as much for volume as they do for nutrients.
When I was first starting out ... a very long time ago ... to lose weight, I did it by just counting calories ... for a couple of reasons ....
1. I needed to know how many I was actually taking in. Yes, I read the labels and saw that a Snickers bar was 240 calories ... which didn't seem like so much, since a glass of whole milk was 150 calories ... and the snickers bar tasted much better than a glass of milk ...
2. My first line of focus after step 1 was to see how many calories I could knock off my daily intake and still enjoy eating ... and the only way I knew how to do that was to .... a) log everything I ate, b) compare what I took in over the course of time to what was happening with my weight ... and c) start to drop some stuff I normally ate in favor of others that filled me up better on less calories. ....
It was only 'along the way' that I also noticed that if I had a better nutritional profile from the food choices I made that I received other benefits besides weight loss ... like better hair, better nails, better skin, less bloat, better bowel habits, less swelling in my feet and legs .... So ... long way to it ... My current belief is that calories in - calories out IS the way to lose weight but that WHAT I eat is the way to good health.15 -
People cannot let go of their need to have a magic bullet / snake oil solution to weight gain. Here is an extract of a comment on an obesity article on social media:
All of the comments on his post just gushed over this. Some of what he is doing may have merit in terms of general health practices, but have nothing to do with losing weight, other than incidentally causing him to eat less calories in general by eating less processed food or intermittently fasting.2 -
As far as I can see, all the article says is, (1) if you subsist on crap alone you're not eating a balanced diet and (2) fitness is about more than the number you see on the scale. The person quoted seems to be advocating exercise, portion management, healthier food choices, and making a permanent lifestyle choice rather than "dieting". How is this different than what many people in the forum are saying?Instead, she advocates forgoing the "quick-fix mentality" in favor of a long-term resolution to embrace a "combination of healthy eating and exercise."
For example, Sandon said, "Reduce calories by cutting back on portion sizes or use pre-portioned foods, such as frozen meals, to cut back on total food intake."
So basically, control your portion sizes and you won't have to worry about counting calories (in effect, limiting calories without directly measuring them). In a sense, what Sandon is doing is using portion size as a proxy for calories; you're still controlling caloric input but by volume rather than calories. This is pretty much what intuitive eating advocates promote:
http://www.intuitiveeating.org/10-principles-of-intuitive-eating/
CICO is just a tool to help monitor your input. But so would be prepackaging meals and managing portion sizes as Sandon suggests. Two tools that lead to the same result. I used intuitive and mindful eating principles, and found that I also need to monitor my input for success. Different tools for different people. And note this from the Intuitive Eating site:3. Make Peace with Food Call a truce, stop the food fight! Give yourself unconditional permission to eat. If you tell yourself that you can’t or shouldn’t have a particular food, it can lead to intense feelings of deprivation that build into uncontrollable cravings and, often, bingeing When you finally “give-in” to your forbidden food, eating will be experienced with such intensity, it usually results in Last Supper overeating, and overwhelming guilt.
But principle #3 isn't going to work without the other principles on the list.5 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »I got called a liar on another MFP discussion for saying there's people that just count calories and disregard nutrition.
And the author of this article is as confused on the subject as you are.
" Sandon pointed out that "canned diet plans rarely work and are hard to stick with."
Instead, she advocates forgoing the "quick-fix mentality" in favor of a long-term resolution to embrace a "combination of healthy eating and exercise."
For example, Sandon said, "Reduce calories by cutting back on portion sizes or use pre-portioned foods, such as frozen meals, to cut back on total food intake.""
Pretty much the standard advice given here.
Different person quoted
""Severely restricting calories or food groups, along with rapid weight loss, are likely to backfire for many reasons, and the dieter will be left feeling frustrated," she added."
Again, this seems to be the tone of those promoting calorie counting.
I'm not confused at all. I was just told previously "Literally no one on earth tracks CICO and ignores nutrition" and that's not true. I'm totally on board with CICO being a surefire way to lose weight; no argument there.
I think there are more than few that track calories and ignore nutrition. Especially when just starting out. I think some add lower calorie nutrient dense foods as much for volume as they do for nutrients.
I think there are lots who start just focusing on calories (and it still beats many of the goofy fad diets for nutrition, I'd bet). But just focusing on calories does not mean you are nutrient deficient or (as joemac seems to think) super low protein.
I also think that tracking is a learning experience, and many who do just focus on calories will learn that some foods aren't worth the calories and what foods are filling and make them feel good on a calorie deficit (or maintenance). And many will likely get interested in nutrition through tracking and start looking at other things once calories are down.
What I think was said to joemac (truthfully) is that no one recommends eating a junk food only diet. I have a hard time imagining that anyone would even want to, although I know realistically some likely would. For me, even if I'm not focusing on nutrition at all, any regular meal needs some protein and some vegetables, that's how I grew up, and I think it's weird that people think you need to do anything particular to get basic nutrition in your diet beyond eat regular, normal foods.
I do think it's clearly true that lots of people in the US eat nutrition-poor diets, but I don't think that's something pushed by those who say that calories are what matters for weight loss. And (obviously!) CICO is not a way of eating.4 -
As far as I can see, all the article says is, (1) if you subsist on crap alone you're not eating a balanced diet and (2) fitness is about more than the number you see on the scale. The person quoted seems to be advocating exercise, portion management, healthier food choices, and making a permanent lifestyle choice rather than "dieting". How is this different than what many people in the forum are saying?Instead, she advocates forgoing the "quick-fix mentality" in favor of a long-term resolution to embrace a "combination of healthy eating and exercise."
For example, Sandon said, "Reduce calories by cutting back on portion sizes or use pre-portioned foods, such as frozen meals, to cut back on total food intake."
So basically, control your portion sizes and you won't have to worry about counting calories (in effect, limiting calories without directly measuring them). In a sense, what Sandon is doing is using portion size as a proxy for calories; you're still controlling caloric input but by volume rather than calories. This is pretty much what intuitive eating advocates promote:
http://www.intuitiveeating.org/10-principles-of-intuitive-eating/
CICO is just a tool to help monitor your input. But so would be prepackaging meals and managing portion sizes as Sandon suggests. Two tools that lead to the same result. I used intuitive and mindful eating principles, and found that I also need to monitor my input for success. Different tools for different people. And note this from the Intuitive Eating site:3. Make Peace with Food Call a truce, stop the food fight! Give yourself unconditional permission to eat. If you tell yourself that you can’t or shouldn’t have a particular food, it can lead to intense feelings of deprivation that build into uncontrollable cravings and, often, bingeing When you finally “give-in” to your forbidden food, eating will be experienced with such intensity, it usually results in Last Supper overeating, and overwhelming guilt.
But principle #3 isn't going to work without the other principles on the list.
It's not that these things are factually incorrect. It's the presentation. Referring to CICO as a "fad" sort of set the tone for the whole article.9 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »People cannot let go of their need to have a magic bullet / snake oil solution to weight gain. Here is an extract of a comment on an obesity article on social media:
All of the comments on his post just gushed over this. Some of what he is doing may have merit in terms of general health practices, but have nothing to do with losing weight, other than incidentally causing him to eat less calories in general by eating less processed food or intermittently fasting.
I don't know why you are knocking him. If he found success in this, then let him have his victory and be happy for him. He's not taking anything away from you and your weight loss journey. Different stroke for different folks. If you don't like it, then scroll on, but don't be tacky and post his personal post on a public forum without his permission.14 -
liftingbro wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Well, it's been confused for a long time that all that matters is calories in calories out. Problem is there are hormones and they are a bigger factor than some think but highly variable from person to person
Yup, and different macros affect your body differently so depending on the person, their goals, etc there's more to the story than just calories.
Yup,leptin, insulin , testosterone and others can change the whole calories in vs calories out equation quite a bit.
Insulin is my personal devil. I can CICO all I want but if that insulin isn't in check, I lose nothing. BUT I truly believe that CICO works GREAT too. There is no single right answer. So many factors, such as insulin, age, metabolic damage, disease can affect which methods work best for you. When I was in my 20's, I absolutely loss weight eating McDonald's everyday. But because I was super careful about my calories, I was able to drop weight. Of course I gained it all back and now years later I am morbidly obese and insulin resistant. So YUP, there are people who think CICO is all that matters. I was one. But we know so much better now.
One thing that I will say is that whether you are keto, low fat, low carb, paleo or just straight CICO. Calories are important. It's not the entire picture, but they are very important.
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liftingbro wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »liftingbro wrote: »Well, it's been confused for a long time that all that matters is calories in calories out. Problem is there are hormones and they are a bigger factor than some think but highly variable from person to person
Yup, and different macros affect your body differently so depending on the person, their goals, etc there's more to the story than just calories.
Yup,leptin, insulin , testosterone and others can change the whole calories in vs calories out equation quite a bit.
Insulin is my personal devil. I can CICO all I want but if that insulin isn't in check, I lose nothing. BUT I truly believe that CICO works GREAT too. There is no single right answer. So many factors, such as insulin, age, metabolic damage, disease can affect which methods work best for you. When I was in my 20's, I absolutely loss weight eating McDonald's everyday. But because I was super careful about my calories, I was able to drop weight. I miss those days.....
CICO is not something that works, it's HOW every single diet you may ever do works. Insulin does not stop your weight loss, overeating calories is.18 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I do firmly buy into CICO - but I have to admit I love seeing articles like this and others because it so ticks off all the right people on here.
So you dislike certain posters more than you love the truth? Cool.
Btw, as one of the posters that invariably jumps into these threads, I usually find these discussions fun (if often ridiculous), that's why we participate, probably.
What in the article is not true?
Oh, I guess I should have seen this question before writing the last post, as this may be duplicative to some degree.A nutritional fad called CICO...
CICO is not a fad or way of eating, it's a statement of the truth, that whether one is losing, gaining, or maintaining depends on energy balance. Similarly, "eat less, move more" is not a way of eating or fad.It's a simplified approach to eating that essentially views fruits and vegetables through the same prism as candies and soda. All that matters is the total caloric tally.
This is false: recognizing that CICO is what matters for weight loss obviously does not mean that you view fruits and veg as the same as candies and sodas or that calories are all that matter in choosing what to eat. It's an insulting lie, in fact, or intentional distortion of what people who say CICO is what determines weight loss are saying.
For example, I firmly believe that CICO is what matters for weight loss, but I have lost without tracking, don't track at maintenance, and used logging when I did it to monitor my diet in lots of ways (since it was fun). I focus on lots of nutritional things. So on."Being healthy isn't just about weight loss alone," noted Lona Sandon, program director and assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. "You have to consider the whole package."
Sure, true, but if one has a lot of weight to lose losing weight may well be one of the MOST important things. And, again, NO ONE is saying it's not good to focus on things beyond weight loss. I think most who talk about CICO would easily identify other things they think are important for health.Sandon acknowledged that those who adopt a CICO approach to eating "might actually lose weight." But there's a downside: "nutrient deficiencies or even malnutrition," she warned.
This suggests that "a CICO approach" (which means nothing more than trying to keep a calorie deficit in some way, if you are trying to lose) somehow results in a more nutrient deficient way of eating, which I totally disagree with. I actually think some (not all) approaches that say calories don't matter but are very restrictive (meat only, very low veg versions of keto, a raw plant-based diet and even some other extreme versions of plant based, many of the silly fad diets that promise magical results from food choice or combining) are FAR more likely to lead to nutritional deficiency. Yes, if you decide that only calories matter and you WANT TO eat a poor diet, then you might do so, but you probably were before cutting calories too. The idea that understanding that calories are what matter for weight loss and focusing on them (which is what I think she's talking about) leads one to eat a nutrient-poor diet is really weird, and suggests that she thinks that unless you lie to people and tell them you need to eat well to lose weight that they won't. I prefer to think that people are capable of acting reasonably and eating well because they understand it's good for them, not because you tell them weight loss requires it.Samantha Heller, senior clinical nutritionist at New York University Medical Center, agreed.
"We are so obsessed with weight loss and being thin that we have lost sight of the fact that being healthy is everything," she said.
Um, actually the problem in our country is not too many thin people who eat junk food diets. It's too many fat people (many of whom also eat poorly, of course). Weight loss is a HUGE factor in healthiness, and focusing on weight loss by no means detracts from eating healthfully if you care about that (and if you don't it's not like learning about CICO caused you not to care, so you might as well do one good thing for health)."It is far more important to eat healthy foods like broccoli, edamame, pecans, berries, pasta and olive oil than go on some crazy weight-loss fad diet," Heller said.
Understanding that CICO is what matters for weight and eating with a calorie deficit is NOT a "crazy weight-loss fad diet." If one if obese, also, it is NOT more important to eat those (weird) foods than lose weight. As I said elsewhere, I ate plenty of olive oil (too much) and pasta (same) and broccoli (I still eat about the same amount) and pecans (although I've always preferred walnuts and some other nuts anyway) when fat, and I eat less of those (but for broccoli and edamame since I only recently started eating edamame) now, and yet my health is no doubt better (and my diet overall better).
If the claim is that it's better to eat lots of nutrient dense foods and be obese than to be more careless about nutrition and a healthy weight, I doubt it, but it's not like you should choose between the two. When I cut calories (because it's only logical and sensible), I cut portions of less nutrient dense foods and kept the higher nutrient foods. Olive oil was one of those I cut down on, since I was consuming too much."Severely restricting calories or food groups, along with rapid weight loss, are likely to backfire for many reasons, and the dieter will be left feeling frustrated," she added.
Agree, but acknowledging CICO does not promote any of these things, quite the opposite. (The alternative to CICO is often fad diets that are super low cal or restricting food groups.)
For the record, I think restricting food groups is not always bad, but it has 0 to do with CICO or flexible dieting (which is a common approach for people who mainly focus on getting a calorie deficit).
The rest is a combination of things I mostly agree with and a weird attribution of the bad things argued against (quick fix!) to CICO, when CICO is (again) just a statement of the truth that calorie balance is what determines the direction your weight will go in.14 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »joemac1988 wrote: »I got called a liar on another MFP discussion for saying there's people that just count calories and disregard nutrition.
And the author of this article is as confused on the subject as you are.
" Sandon pointed out that "canned diet plans rarely work and are hard to stick with."
Instead, she advocates forgoing the "quick-fix mentality" in favor of a long-term resolution to embrace a "combination of healthy eating and exercise."
For example, Sandon said, "Reduce calories by cutting back on portion sizes or use pre-portioned foods, such as frozen meals, to cut back on total food intake.""
Pretty much the standard advice given here.
Different person quoted
""Severely restricting calories or food groups, along with rapid weight loss, are likely to backfire for many reasons, and the dieter will be left feeling frustrated," she added."
Again, this seems to be the tone of those promoting calorie counting.
I'm not confused at all. I was just told previously "Literally no one on earth tracks CICO and ignores nutrition" and that's not true. I'm totally on board with CICO being a surefire way to lose weight; no argument there.
I think there are more than few that track calories and ignore nutrition. Especially when just starting out. I think some add lower calorie nutrient dense foods as much for volume as they do for nutrients.
When I was first starting out ... a very long time ago ... to lose weight, I did it by just counting calories ... for a couple of reasons ....
1. I needed to know how many I was actually taking in. Yes, I read the labels and saw that a Snickers bar was 240 calories ... which didn't seem like so much, since a glass of whole milk was 150 calories ... and the snickers bar tasted much better than a glass of milk ...
2. My first line of focus after step 1 was to see how many calories I could knock off my daily intake and still enjoy eating ... and the only way I knew how to do that was to .... a) log everything I ate, b) compare what I took in over the course of time to what was happening with my weight ... and c) start to drop some stuff I normally ate in favor of others that filled me up better on less calories. ....
It was only 'along the way' that I also noticed that if I had a better nutritional profile from the food choices I made that I received other benefits besides weight loss ... like better hair, better nails, better skin, less bloat, better bowel habits, less swelling in my feet and legs .... So ... long way to it ... My current belief is that calories in - calories out IS the way to lose weight but that WHAT I eat is the way to good health.
Yes, I bet for those not already interested in nutrition, this is really common as a result of logging.
I was interested in nutrition already, but logging (or just writing down everything I ate) was eye-opening and I was able to knock off lots of calories without sacrificing any enjoyment (or nutrition).3 -
I am continually amazed at how many people don't understand what CICO is.
1. CICO governs energy balance. Nothing else.
2. CICO is not about food.
3. Food contains energy, food also contains nutrients. Nutrients and energy aren't the same thing.
4. Nutrients, energy, and heck, even hormones, are all different things.
CICO is only meant to describe energy balance. It's okay to entertain several different discussions regarding food because it's a complicated issue.
There's a not being able to see the forest for the trees issue a lot of you are making here. Mike Israetel recently gave a Tedx talk (and normally I don't think much of them, but I respect Mike Israetel) on this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYeZVfPxwKM
This is only about 15 minutes long. Give it a watch if you are so insistent on picking nits here.
Basically, the TL;DR is that calories are the biggest driver, and are the big picture.15 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »People cannot let go of their need to have a magic bullet / snake oil solution to weight gain. Here is an extract of a comment on an obesity article on social media:
All of the comments on his post just gushed over this. Some of what he is doing may have merit in terms of general health practices, but have nothing to do with losing weight, other than incidentally causing him to eat less calories in general by eating less processed food or intermittently fasting.
I don't know why you are knocking him. If he found success in this, then let him have his victory and be happy for him. He's not taking anything away from you and your weight loss journey. Different stroke for different folks. If you don't like it, then scroll on, but don't be tacky and post his personal post on a public forum without his permission.
1) He posted this on a public site, so his comments are all fair game. Note how I kept his name and picture anonymous?
2) He is needlessly over-complicating weight loss and making people believe that they must give up processed food, eat plant-based diets, and intermittently fast to lose weight. No, no, and no. This sort of instruction is what intimidates people into needlessly abandoning the simple and sustainable to embrace the complex and temporary, and then becoming frustrated because it is not sustainable for most people because they want processed food, meat, and have difficulty fasting for 16+ hours at a time.
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