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Why are some WOE more acceptable than others?
Replies
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Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.15
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.11 -
stevencloser wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.
I think this is by far the best strategy.3 -
@Quieau I have been keto (mostly) for going on 3 years. I have had about a 10 lb fluctuation after losing my weight (not 100+ lbs) but it continues to work best for me.
Thanks for your response! So if you don't mind my asking: how many pounds did you lose (gross and net)? And do you cycle or stay keto all the time? And finally, when you say it works best for you ... compared to which? What other ones were tried and can be compared?
I ask because the general consensus is that it "works" because of the net calorie restriction, not because of the specific carb macro restriction (1000 calories intake will make you lose weight like crazy regardless of macros; I know someone claiming Keto is the only way to lose weight, but she's eating 800-900 calories a day on Keto). And the concern that the weight lost is a lot of water and muscle (compared with other less restrictive WOE).
So do you track body composition, or just weight on a scale? And what others diets were tried for comparison? Do you exercise? What type and how much?
I'm not asking to challenge you at all; I'm trying to learn and the info is VERY sparse beyond, "Wow! Keto works!" and "Wow, Keto sucks!" ... thanks!
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stevencloser wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »I could interpret your post as insulting, but that would be factually incorrect.
So? Obviously if there are two interpretations one will be incorrect, that doesn't mean there weren't two.
Which is why "You could just ask Kommodeveran". Instead of assuming the worst, going with it, and shouting it around in half a dozen other threads as if it's the truth.
Agree. That does seem better than assuming either way or asking for confirmation of assumptions.1 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »
I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone.
Lurker chiming in.
Absolutes are rarely true.
Thank you to those who made sure people knew that they don't have to do low carb or keto to lose weight or get healthy. I was spinning my wheels and making myself miserable because I thought I needed to cut out carbs. It wasn't sustainable or needed for me. Moderation is actually perfect for me. So thank you.
Keto is not right for everyone. And knowing that restricting just one macro does work for many. As I said, people can be told that keto is not needed to lose weight if they are unaware of that. Politely if possible. Many do it politely. Many don't. I have seen it written as:
"Keto is not magical. You do realize that you don't need to cut an entire macronutrient in order to lose weight, don't you? It's not sustainable in the long run anyway. Weight loss is responsible for the health benefits you just listed. Keto is in not in any way superior so get off your high horse."
To
"To lose weight you need a calorie deficit. Keto can be used as a tool for that, or helpful to some health issues, if you wish."
Technically, both responses may be correct. One is better received by me. YMMV
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notreallychris wrote: »I do get irritated by posts of "why would you eat that way if you are worried about xyz? Just eat in moderation / a balanced diet instead." That's just a response for the sake of responding and hasn't helped anyone. Sometimes it comes with some snark that excited newbies are surprised at. I just block people now, and I can't even remember the last time I bothered looking at my woo's. LOL Anyways, directing people with questions to the Low Carber Daily and Keto groups is generally the kindest thing to do. They'll experience less snark, possibly get their question answered by people who are successful on this woe, and be directed towards good resources.
I have done this. Especially if the poster is struggling on staying with Keto. No reason for them to be so restrictive when everything in moderation will do just fine.
And directing them to the group of low carb/keto may be detrimental. If the group says "keto is the way to go", the person should know, it's not the ONLY way. It's not for everyone.
It's also hard to tell snark from text on a screen.
I think for those who are making a snap decision to do keto because they read about it in Shape magazine or their favourite blogger tried it for a week, then you are probably right - moderation may be just fine.
For those who have researched it and have a reason for trying it, often people past their 30s who have health issues related to insulin resistance, then LCHF or keto may be the way to go. At least giving it a good educated try makes sense. In that case, getting information from people who know how to do it makes sense.
Plus people in those groups tend to try and help in the diet but they are generally supportive of people doing what works best for you. JMO
I do think snark is not that hard to identify in text. JMO7 -
@Quieau I have been keto (mostly) for going on 3 years. I have had about a 10 lb fluctuation after losing my weight (not 100+ lbs) but it continues to work best for me.
Thanks for your response! So if you don't mind my asking: how many pounds did you lose (gross and net)? And do you cycle or stay keto all the time? And finally, when you say it works best for you ... compared to which? What other ones were tried and can be compared?
I ask because the general consensus is that it "works" because of the net calorie restriction, not because of the specific carb macro restriction (1000 calories intake will make you lose weight like crazy regardless of macros; I know someone claiming Keto is the only way to lose weight, but she's eating 800-900 calories a day on Keto). And the concern that the weight lost is a lot of water and muscle (compared with other less restrictive WOE).
So do you track body composition, or just weight on a scale? And what others diets were tried for comparison? Do you exercise? What type and how much?
I'm not asking to challenge you at all; I'm trying to learn and the info is VERY sparse beyond, "Wow! Keto works!" and "Wow, Keto sucks!" ... thanks!
I lost about 40 lbs in around 5 months. I regained about 10 lbs when my health issues flared up and I was eating too much as I tried to raise my carb level a bit. I lost that 10 again but about 5 have crept back on this winter.
I maintained for about 2 years now.
I stay mostly keto. While losing it was all keto. When I maintain well, I am keto. When my carbs hit 50 g or so, I start gaining. It triggers my appetite. Plus I have reactive hypoglycaemia so when I rely on carbs for fuel, I experience fatigue, lightheadedness, shaking and a lot of hunger every 2-3 hours after eating. If I keep carbs quite low, it never happens and it makes eating less easier.
For most of my adult life I followed moderation. I was slowly gaining weight doing that. About 25 lbs in 20 years.
I lost all of that extra weight once when I followed Tosca Reno's Eat Clean Diet. I felt good and lost weight. In hind site, it was low carb. I still remember starting maintenance. I'll just have the one muffin. Pfft. Increasing carbs = weight gain for me. I regained my weight.
Once I developed insulin resistance, I gained another 15 lbs in just over a year while failing at trying to lose weight with moderation. I can't handle moderate carbs and my health was suffering.
I switched to keto to address my IR and other health issues. It worked. It became easy so I will stay with it.
Keto works for weight loss due to calorie restriction. Some people with IR, like me, may lose slightly faster on aLCHF diet but it is not a large difference. For those without metabolic problems, I have not seen anything that shows a LCHF has an edge over regular diets. Some might be less hungry eating keto, but for healthy people, that is the only weight loss benefit.
Keto is fairly muscle sparing after the first few days, but a really low calorie diet is not smart. When I lost, without exercise, I was eating about 1500kcal a day.2 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.
Lol. If it is a keto thread, you can expects woos.5 -
Poweredbycoffee06 wrote: »Bahaha I got wooed... I'm taking it as a woo hoo good for you for finding a sustainable plan for yourself.
Lol. If it is a keto thread, you can expects woos.
Oh, I didn't expect anything less.0 -
Have to say: If someone posts that they're thinking of going vegetarian because it's better for weight loss, or they think it's more morally pure but they love meat, or other things along those lines, I routinely suggest that they reconsider, and tell them why I think that's good advice. I've done so a bunch of times.
That's pushback on vegetarians, isn't it?
(Please note: I've been vegetarian for 43 years. That makes me feel just a little tiny bit expert.)
Usually, I only fuss at low-carb/keto folks who insult other WOEs, pop into threads unrelated to carby-ness to power evangelize well beyond "this worked for me", insist it's the only way to lose weight, insist that carb eaters who claim satiation are lying/deluded, pitch bad science, or that sort of thing.
Does that happen often? No. But it does happen. (I'd simiarly fuss at analogous "logic" from evangelists for other specialty WOEs, BTW.)
I think its legit to suggest to someone who's struggling with low carb that it isn't essential for weight loss, mainly in the form of saying I didn't have to go low carb to lose. (I also think it's legit to suggest to someone struggling in relevant ways that they could try low carb or keto, but I'd rarely suggest it because I didn't do it.)
Generally, I think a lot of people (me included) are more likely to notice/remember when their own pet beliefs are - in their view - criticized or countered, thus to think that it occurs more frequently than it actually does.15 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.
I'm coming into this a few days late, but I'll offer my perspective.
On threads where newbies are suffering on keto and unsure, I offer perspective from 40 years spent dieting. Ten of those years were spent eating low carb. I never once got closer than 15 pounds above the upper range of overweight BMI.
I have some unique perspective to offer on sustainability to conversations about this. If someone is starting off and struggling, I think it would be foolish not to share it.
I know everyone is different and my experience is unique to me, but if you're going in with doubts, having more information on board is always a good thing. I wasted ten years never reaching goal because of lack of information.11 -
This is what I told myself too, only it was twenty+ years. But the information was provided to me, I just chose to ignore it and stick to what I believed was necesssary (low fat, low sugar, low salt, high fiber, low taste). I have spent a few years being bitter, "why couldn't someone have explained this to me", and trying to explain "losing weight doesn't have to feel like torture" to newcomers; while at the same time being perfectly aware of the adage "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you", even pressing that "you have to do the job yourself". I don't think the most common problem is a lack of information - it could have been that for you though - I think the overarching problem is too much information and lack of judgement. What I've really been trying to do - but now aiming to stop - is to understand something for someone else, do the job for them. That doesn't work. I didn't make the connection until a few days ago! I had to do the job myself, and a big part of that job was to change my attitude and challenge my beliefs. All I can do is present the facts I believe to be true and as I understand them, as clearly and neutral as possible, and let the other person use that information as they see fit and to the extent they are able to. Noone could have done more for me either.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.
I'm coming into this a few days late, but I'll offer my perspective.
On threads where newbies are suffering on keto and unsure, I offer perspective from 40 years spent dieting. Ten of those years were spent eating low carb. I never once got closer than 15 pounds above the upper range of overweight BMI.
I have some unique perspective to offer on sustainability to conversations about this. If someone is starting off and struggling, I think it would be foolish not to share it.
I know everyone is different and my experience is unique to me, but if you're going in with doubts, having more information on board is always a good thing. I wasted ten years never reaching goal because of lack of information.7 -
kommodevaran wrote: »
This is what I told myself too, only it was twenty+ years. But the information was provided to me, I just chose to ignore it and stick to what I believed was necesssary (low fat, low sugar, low salt, high fiber, low taste). I have spent a few years being bitter, "why couldn't someone have explained this to me", and trying to explain "losing weight doesn't have to feel like torture" to newcomers; while at the same time being perfectly aware of the adage "I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you", even pressing that "you have to do the job yourself". I don't think the most common problem is a lack of information - it could have been that for you though - I think the overarching problem is too much information and lack of judgement. What I've really been trying to do - but now aiming to stop - is to understand something for someone else, do the job for them. That doesn't work. I didn't make the connection until a few days ago! I had to do the job myself, and a big part of that job was to change my attitude and challenge my beliefs. All I can do is present the facts I believe to be true and as I understand them, as clearly and neutral as possible, and let the other person use that information as they see fit and to the extent they are able to. Noone could have done more for me either.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »kommodevaran wrote: »
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?
I do actually. Once they have made a decision, why make them question it every step of the way? That just screws with people’s self worth. Maybe I just assume a basic level of research, comprehension, common sense. Etc. On what they are choosing. Naive on my part I guess. In real life I don’t flat out tell grown adults they are wrong if their choices don’t affect me. Unless they want my opinion. Asking for an opinion about the Keto diet vs asking how to set their macros for the Keto diet warrant completely different answers.
I'm coming into this a few days late, but I'll offer my perspective.
On threads where newbies are suffering on keto and unsure, I offer perspective from 40 years spent dieting. Ten of those years were spent eating low carb. I never once got closer than 15 pounds above the upper range of overweight BMI.
I have some unique perspective to offer on sustainability to conversations about this. If someone is starting off and struggling, I think it would be foolish not to share it.
I know everyone is different and my experience is unique to me, but if you're going in with doubts, having more information on board is always a good thing. I wasted ten years never reaching goal because of lack of information.
Oh, I dieted for 40 years. That ten years was spent low carbing being told it would magically regulate my intake and make me as thin as I'd always wanted to be.
But the thing is, I started falling for the misinformation and never had a lot of success.
I knew the general "eat less, move more", but it was all somewhat vague to me how to quantify my intake, and I was a very credulous person back then. If it wasn't some silly crash diet, it was eat hardly anything. There was no middle path.
Quite silly of me. Yes, I had to do a lot of belief challenging and responsibility taking. But I also had to learn a lot about exact numbers and how all the puzzle pieces fit together to make "eat less, move more" work.4 -
Something I was hoping I'd see in this thread, but haven't. . .I've eaten keto not as a diet, but for a specific medical issue. (People have been using keto to treat these sorts of disorders for a very, very long time.) I don't like it, and I don't do it when I can get away with eating normally (noms to king cake), but I WILL do it when necessary. I restrict calories to lose weight.
So yeah, keto can just be a means to living a normal life and have nothing do to with weight loss. (And believe me, when you HAVE to do it and you crave a slice of bread or a french fry, you whine, even when it's only to yourself.)5 -
Generally, I think a lot of people (me included) are more likely to notice/remember when their own pet beliefs are - in their view - criticized or countered, thus to think that it occurs more frequently than it actually does.
I think this is a good point about perception of frequency.
People who post that they are drinking meal replacement shakes, expensive diet meals, nutritionists/coaches, avoiding processed foods, drinking an ocean of water, spending hours at the gym are told those things are not absolutely necessary for weight loss every time they come up. I don't think keto is targeted negatively more than other things.
I think a major reason you will continually see posts saying this or that isn't necessary only calorie deficit is that many of us have been through plans that promised weight loss without talking about calories and did not have consistant or sustainable results. We have collectively spent lots of money and time on these things. I'm glad people point it out so often in this community that weight loss boils down to CICO because I did struggle in the past more than necessary trying to stick to things that were not a good fit for me and hating myself for failing. Calorie information is out there but there are more books, videos, celebrity diets, etc telling you to do some diet of the day. It is easy for someone new to weight loss to think they need to do what they hear about most.
4 -
My general experience (as a vegan) is that the members here are very open to different ways of eating (including veganism/vegetarianism, religious dietary restrictions, keto/low carbohydrate, "whole foods"). When it becomes an issue is when advocates for those diets advance them as the only way to be healthy or the easiest way for everyone to get healthier.
When someone posts about how they just saw "What the Health" and now they have to go vegan because they're scared or how they love potatoes but they know keto is the only way to lose weight, etc . . . that's when they get pushback.
As far as me being vegan, I can count on one hand all the people I've encountered (in about 3 years of active posting) who seem to have issues with it. That's actually less than some other places I've spent time in online! I imagine that would be very different if I was telling people that veganism was the best way to lose weight or that people had to do it in order to avoid heart attacks . . . or if I was attempting to actively recruit people to veganism when they had expressed no interest in it. From what I've seen, keto/low carbohydrate people have about the same experience I do.
(This is not to express that I think veganism and keto/low carbohydrate are equivalent -- I think there are important differences between the two, but since the OP originally compared them I am continuing with that instead of going into the various ways I believe the two differ).7 -
Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.6 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.
As stated earlier, vegan is often about ethical choices and not weight loss.
Someone also suggested WLS too. I did not read the entire thread - it is LONG one - but if someone is having trouble losing by simply moderating calories, and they have that much to lose, trying different woes to make weight loss easier (as some find keto more satiating) is not really a bad thing.
JMO3 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.
As stated earlier, vegan is often about ethical choices and not weight loss.
Someone also suggested WLS too. I did not read the entire thread - it is LONG one - but if someone is having trouble losing by simply moderating calories, and they have that much to lose, trying different woes to make weight loss easier (as some find keto more satiating) is not really a bad thing.
JMO
If you read that thread, it appears that OP is having consistent progress without keto. That's why the suggestion to switch doesn't really make sense -- especially since he has already shared, IIRC, that he doesn't think it would be a good choice for him personally.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.
As stated earlier, vegan is often about ethical choices and not weight loss.
Someone also suggested WLS too. I did not read the entire thread - it is LONG one - but if someone is having trouble losing by simply moderating calories, and they have that much to lose, trying different woes to make weight loss easier (as some find keto more satiating) is not really a bad thing.
JMO
If you read that thread, it appears that OP is having consistent progress without keto. That's why the suggestion to switch doesn't really make sense -- especially since he has already shared, IIRC, that he doesn't think it would be a good choice for him personally.
Yes. I've been reading along in this thread but just now commenting. I eat low carb and ate a ketogenic diet for a year for reason other than weight management (been maintaining for a few years) and currently eat very LCHF for hunger suppression. It seems to work for me.
That aside, I just shook my head at the comment of "Hey, try eating keto" for precisely the reasons you mention.5 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.
As stated earlier, vegan is often about ethical choices and not weight loss.
Someone also suggested WLS too. I did not read the entire thread - it is LONG one - but if someone is having trouble losing by simply moderating calories, and they have that much to lose, trying different woes to make weight loss easier (as some find keto more satiating) is not really a bad thing.
JMO
Trouble is (and I don't mean you) that by reading the thread before making the drive-by comment, you would see the topic had been discussed and really wasn't helpful to suggest again. But too many of the Keto followers (and it does seem like a *kitten* religion at times) don't take the time to read what the poster says and just assume Keto.
Honestly, I don't see vegans doing that, and I think that goes a long way to answer what the OP of this thread was asking.
8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »Want an example of why Keto gets shot down?
Read the post I responded to in this thread
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10600973/lose-200lbs-in-less-then-a-year/p38
I don't see anyone in that thread suggesting going vegan.
As stated earlier, vegan is often about ethical choices and not weight loss.
Someone also suggested WLS too. I did not read the entire thread - it is LONG one - but if someone is having trouble losing by simply moderating calories, and they have that much to lose, trying different woes to make weight loss easier (as some find keto more satiating) is not really a bad thing.
JMO
If you read that thread, it appears that OP is having consistent progress without keto. That's why the suggestion to switch doesn't really make sense -- especially since he has already shared, IIRC, that he doesn't think it would be a good choice for him personally.
Ah. Gotcha. I'll take your word for it. I only looked at the one page.1
This discussion has been closed.
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