Need advice from vegans: How much protein do I really need to be consuming.... REALLY??
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »You don't have to worry nearly as much about protein as people say you do. There are raw vegans who have eaten nothing but fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds for years and they haven't gotten "protein deficiency." Kwashiorkor (protein deficiency) happens in famine situations where people are getting very little of ANY food, and the little food they are getting is low in protein such as rice. I haven't heard of any cases of people getting "protein deficiency" while eating a plentiful Western vegan diet. However, if you are concerned about it, the vegan protein powder isn't going to kill you, especially if you're only eating it for as long as you're dieting. Sure it's not as healthy as eating whole foods but it's fine.
I eat a mostly plant-based diet. I do have (on average) two eggs per day, and yesterday I also decided to add back in one serving of dairy per day, but the rest is vegan (and some days are entirely vegan). My daily protein has generally been in the 80-100g per day range for 2000-2100 calories, and that's without any protein powder, protein bars, etc. It's not something I'm concerned about at all.
There are also dozens and dozens of former raw vegans who quit veganism because they felt ill or weak or developed health problems. You can feel unwell, weak, or just under the weather due to low protein intake well before a clinical protein deficiency sets in. Using a diagnosed protein deficiency as the baseline for vegan wellness does new vegans a profound disservice. We owe them better than advice that is designed to keep them just above the baseline for medical intervention.
Surely our goal should involve thriving,a feeling of wellness, and lean muscle mass growth/retention, not just avoiding an official diagnosis of protein deficiency?
When you say consuming protein powder isn't as healthy as eating whole foods, what do you mean? What specific health problems are you concerned with and what data is that based on?13 -
missionprobable wrote: »PrincessTinyheart wrote: »About how many grams are you trying to get, and how short are you falling?
According to MFP I should have 78 grams of protein a day, and today I have 56 grams. That's including a scoop of vegan protein powder with a cup of almond milk. My average protein intake varies wildly. Some days I get pretty close.... but I go over on calories
. Most days I'm on target with my calories but way under on protein. I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit, some whole grains, and then throw protein in there whenever I can. Maybe I need to start by figuring out how much protein-rich food I can eat to meet my goal and then adding veggies and grains around that?
Most of my vegetarian friends eat either dairy or fish. There is a group here called I think Happy Herbivores or something like that. Perhaps if you can find that group they'll be able to give you some ideas.
I wouldn't be afraid of the vegan protein powder either. Try to get protein into your regular meals, but if the farthest you get off track is some protein powder, I think your golden
FYI That's far from vegetarian. People of that nature are called pescatarian. Fish is an animal = meat.
Yes, I'm aware. They started out as vegetarian and then added one or the other to get a bit more protein, and they still call themselves vegetarian so that's what I call them.
And it's not "far from vegetarian". I'm far from vegetarian. They eat one other food a few times a week. Thanks though.
if someone is eating fish regularly- they aren't vegetarians.
that's like me saying I'm vegetarian because I have meatless meals occasionally.2 -
missionprobable wrote: »PrincessTinyheart wrote: »About how many grams are you trying to get, and how short are you falling?
According to MFP I should have 78 grams of protein a day, and today I have 56 grams. That's including a scoop of vegan protein powder with a cup of almond milk. My average protein intake varies wildly. Some days I get pretty close.... but I go over on calories. Most days I'm on target with my calories but way under on protein. I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit, some whole grains, and then throw protein in there whenever I can. Maybe I need to start by figuring out how much protein-rich food I can eat to meet my goal and then adding veggies and grains around that?
Most of my vegetarian friends eat either dairy or fish. There is a group here called I think Happy Herbivores or something like that. Perhaps if you can find that group they'll be able to give you some ideas.
I wouldn't be afraid of the vegan protein powder either. Try to get protein into your regular meals, but if the farthest you get off track is some protein powder, I think your golden
FYI That's far from vegetarian. People of that nature are called pescatarian. Fish is an animal = meat.
Yes, I'm aware. They started out as vegetarian and then added one or the other to get a bit more protein, and they still call themselves vegetarian so that's what I call them.
And it's not "far from vegetarian". I'm far from vegetarian. They eat one other food a few times a week. Thanks though.
if someone is eating fish regularly- they aren't vegetarians.
that's like me saying I'm vegetarian because I have meatless meals occasionally.
OK, thanks. I'll let them know.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »There are also dozens and dozens of former raw vegans who quit veganism because they felt ill or weak or developed health problems. You can feel unwell, weak, or just under the weather due to low protein intake well before a clinical protein deficiency sets in. Using a diagnosed protein deficiency as the baseline for vegan wellness does new vegans a profound disservice. We owe them better than advice that is designed to keep them just above the baseline for medical intervention.
Surely our goal should involve thriving,a feeling of wellness, and lean muscle mass growth/retention, not just avoiding an official diagnosis of protein deficiency?
How do we know their problems came from protein deficiency, rather than for another reason? It could be from a variety of other deficiencies, such as iron, B12, vitamin D, etc. or even from something like too high of a fructose intake. There is no evidence their problems came from "protein deficiency." I wouldn't advocate a raw vegan diet for other reasons, but the point I was making was that people obsess over protein too much and you really don't need much protein to be healthy. 56g per day is fine, although I also assume OP isn't going to be on 1500 cals a day forever, since she mentioned this is about a 500 cals per day deficit for her (losing one pound a week) so eventually her caloric intake and therefore protein intake will increase.When you say consuming protein powder isn't as healthy as eating whole foods, what do you mean? What specific health problems are you concerned with and what data is that based on?
Pretty much every nutrition guide out there recommends whole unprocessed or minimally processed foods over processed foods. Just look at any nutritionist or doctor's recommendations. Less processed foods retain more of their original nutrition and (if they're plant-based) fiber which slows down their digestion in the body (which can help with weight and blood sugar control). As I said protein powder won't kill you but if you're trying to eat an optimal diet, whole foods are healthier. However, there's also this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-protein-shakes-harm-your-health/ (plus various other articles along these lines)
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »There are also dozens and dozens of former raw vegans who quit veganism because they felt ill or weak or developed health problems. You can feel unwell, weak, or just under the weather due to low protein intake well before a clinical protein deficiency sets in. Using a diagnosed protein deficiency as the baseline for vegan wellness does new vegans a profound disservice. We owe them better than advice that is designed to keep them just above the baseline for medical intervention.
Surely our goal should involve thriving,a feeling of wellness, and lean muscle mass growth/retention, not just avoiding an official diagnosis of protein deficiency?
How do we know their problems came from protein deficiency, rather than for another reason? It could be from a variety of other deficiencies, such as iron, B12, vitamin D, etc. or even from something like too high of a fructose intake. There is no evidence their problems came from "protein deficiency." I wouldn't advocate a raw vegan diet for other reasons, but the point I was making was that people obsess over protein too much and you really don't need much protein to be healthy. 56g per day is fine, although I also assume OP isn't going to be on 1500 cals a day forever, since she mentioned this is about a 500 cals per day deficit for her (losing one pound a week) so eventually her caloric intake and therefore protein intake will increase.When you say consuming protein powder isn't as healthy as eating whole foods, what do you mean? What specific health problems are you concerned with and what data is that based on?
Pretty much every nutrition guide out there recommends whole unprocessed or minimally processed foods over processed foods. Just look at any nutritionist or doctor's recommendations. Less processed foods retain more of their original nutrition and (if they're plant-based) fiber which slows down their digestion in the body (which can help with weight and blood sugar control). As I said protein powder won't kill you but if you're trying to eat an optimal diet, whole foods are healthier. However, there's also this: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/could-protein-shakes-harm-your-health/ (plus various other articles along these lines)
We don't -- but we know that focusing on clinical deficiency as the sole metric of vegan nutrition doesn't necessarily set people up for success. Your argument is that avoiding an outright diagnosis of clinical protein deficiency is sufficient. I disagree with that. My personal standard is to not just avoid that diagnosis, but to thrive. I would assume that is OP's goal as well.
When you refer to "pretty much every nutrition guide" is that a statement that you don't have any evidence that protein powder is harmful to health? I have no idea what you mean when you say that whole foods are "healthier" than protein powder if you have no data showing that protein powder is harmful to health. What does this mean to you if you're not referring to actual outcomes in human health?
That article is referring to contaminated protein powders that have lead or other harmful substances. Nobody is arguing that those are healthful. There have also been instances of food-borne illness related to whole foods like greens, but using those to argue that consuming greens is unhealthful overall wouldn't be reasonable, would it?
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janejellyroll wrote: »We don't -- but we know that focusing on clinical deficiency as the sole metric of vegan nutrition doesn't necessarily set people up for success. Your argument is that avoiding an outright diagnosis of clinical protein deficiency is sufficient. I disagree with that. My personal standard is to not just avoid that diagnosis, but to thrive. I would assume that is OP's goal as well.
What I originally said was that many people thrive as raw vegans getting less protein than OP is getting. Sure, some people quit due to feeling ill, but where is the evidence those cases are due to lack of protein rather than another reason? People also quit the paleo diet and every other type of diet due to feeling ill. OP has said nothing about experiencing any symptoms that indicate she may have a "protein deficiency."When you refer to "pretty much every nutrition guide" is that a statement that you don't have any evidence that protein powder is harmful to health? I have no idea what you mean when you say that whole foods are "healthier" than protein powder if you have no data showing that protein powder is harmful to health. What does this mean to you if you're not referring to actual outcomes in human health?
Show me where I ever said protein powder is harmful to health in my initial post. The OP was the one who said she had concerns about eating protein powder. I said it may not be as healthy as unprocessed foods but it's fine. Sorry you have problems with reading comprehension.That article is referring to contaminated protein powders that have lead or other harmful substances. Nobody is arguing that those are healthful. There have also been instances of food-borne illness related to whole foods like greens, but using those to argue that consuming greens is unhealthful overall wouldn't be reasonable, would it?
Not every bunch of greens is contaminated with bacteria. Every sample of protein powder they tested had heavy metals.
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »We don't -- but we know that focusing on clinical deficiency as the sole metric of vegan nutrition doesn't necessarily set people up for success. Your argument is that avoiding an outright diagnosis of clinical protein deficiency is sufficient. I disagree with that. My personal standard is to not just avoid that diagnosis, but to thrive. I would assume that is OP's goal as well.
What I originally said was that many people thrive as raw vegans getting less protein than OP is getting. Sure, some people quit due to feeling ill, but where is the evidence those cases are due to lack of protein rather than another reason? People also quit the paleo diet and every other type of diet due to feeling ill. OP has said nothing about experiencing any symptoms that indicate she may have a "protein deficiency."When you refer to "pretty much every nutrition guide" is that a statement that you don't have any evidence that protein powder is harmful to health? I have no idea what you mean when you say that whole foods are "healthier" than protein powder if you have no data showing that protein powder is harmful to health. What does this mean to you if you're not referring to actual outcomes in human health?
Show me where I ever said protein powder is harmful to health in my initial post. The OP was the one who said she had concerns about eating protein powder. I said it may not be as healthy as unprocessed foods but it's fine. Sorry you have problems with reading comprehension.That article is referring to contaminated protein powders that have lead or other harmful substances. Nobody is arguing that those are healthful. There have also been instances of food-borne illness related to whole foods like greens, but using those to argue that consuming greens is unhealthful overall wouldn't be reasonable, would it?
Not every bunch of greens is contaminated with bacteria. Every sample of protein powder they tested had heavy metals.
Yes, and I said that many people *don't* thrive as raw vegans and protein could be part of the reason why. When you look at a group of people who have stuck with raw veganism and assume that means *any amount of protein* is sufficient for people to thrive or that protein guidelines don't apply to vegans, it's risky to ignore all the people who have tried raw veganism and abandoned the lifestyle because they didn't feel well. You need to look at the whole picture.
People who quit the paleo diet due to not feeling well may also represent a group not getting their nutritional needs met. If we were having this conversation about how paleo was healthful no matter how many of your nutritional needs were being met, I would bring up former paleo dieters who quit due to not feeling well/health concerns as well.
You said that protein powder wasn't as "healthy." I asked you how it could harm health. If you don't believe that protein powder can impair or harm health (in the context of non-contaiminated food, just as we would discuss greens or peanut butter or any other food), then please clarify what you mean by it not being as healthy.
For me, when someone says something isn't as healthy, there seems to be a claim that it is not good or harmful in some way.
I don't find a test sample of 15 to convince me that protein powder should totally be avoided. In any event, if heavy metal contamination was your primary concern, I don't understand why you didn't lead with that instead of vague claims that protein powder isn't as "healthy" as whole foods.4 -
Here's CR's list that actually shows what they tested. Hardly all protein powders, mostly biased toward the premade shakes (which I would avoid for other reasons) and certainly not the ones a vegan would be choosing:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2012/04/protein-drinks/index.htm
It's also worth noting that the concern really seems to be "you don't need huge amounts of protein" (which is not what is being discussed here), and "there are cheaper ways to get protein" (but none of those listed are vegan). Obviously there ARE cheap vegan sources of protein (beans, lentils), but lots of people like variety or might want some protein without the additional carbs and calories (perhaps because they enjoy some oats or a smoothie but want protein too, without doubling the calories).
Beyond that, here's a good response to the CR claims:
http://nicktumminello.com/2010/07/poison-protein-and-consumer-reports-nutrition-expert-alan-aragon-speaks-out/
Here's the ON list referred to, that provides the heavy metal contents in context -- I find it remarkable and shameful that CR did not, as that made it's claims quite misleading: https://www.netrition.com/Consumer_Reports_OptimumNutrition_response.pdf8 -
how are you vegan if you eat two eggs a day?
I'm so effing confused.5 -
Also- eat peanut butter- apparently that's something with protein in- I'm told daily it's a good source of protein.
#rollseyes.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Yes, and I said that many people *don't* thrive as raw vegans and protein could be part of the reason why. When you look at a group of people who have stuck with raw veganism and assume that means *any amount of protein* is sufficient for people to thrive or that protein guidelines don't apply to vegans, it's risky to ignore all the people who have tried raw veganism and abandoned the lifestyle because they didn't feel well. You need to look at the whole picture.
People who quit the paleo diet due to not feeling well may also represent a group not getting their nutritional needs met. If we were having this conversation about how paleo was healthful no matter how many of your nutritional needs were being met, I would bring up former paleo dieters who quit due to not feeling well/health concerns as well.
She's getting more protein and higher quality protein than raw vegans though. So you attacking me for my extreme outlier example is just a red herring argument.You said that protein powder wasn't as "healthy." I asked you how it could harm health. If you don't believe that protein powder can impair or harm health (in the context of non-contaiminated food, just as we would discuss greens or peanut butter or any other food), then please clarify what you mean by it not being as healthy.
I already said multiple times, it's not as healthy because it's a processed food. EVERY dietary expert out there agrees that non-processed foods are healthier than processed ones, for reasons which I already stated.For me, when someone says something isn't as healthy, there seems to be a claim that it is not good or harmful in some way.
Well you've already established you have problems understanding what I'm saying.I don't find a test sample of 15 to convince me that protein powder should totally be avoided. In any event, if heavy metal contamination was your primary concern, I don't understand why you didn't lead with that instead of vague claims that protein powder isn't as "healthy" as whole foods.
You're welcome to look up other studies. And my original intent was not to say anything about heavy metal contamination as I didn't even know about that before today. BTW the article also listed other problems that protein powder consumption may cause, which are substantiated by other articles -- I see you didn't mention those. I just posted that article as a general advisory.
Honestly I don't have any more time to waste on this argument, and if you want to continue to misconstrue my words in order to start problems, that's your issue.
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dragthewaters1991 wrote: »
I already said multiple times, it's not as healthy because it's a processed food. EVERY dietary expert out there agrees that non-processed foods are healthier than processed ones, for reasons which I already stated.
what reasons? Because processed foods retain less "nutrients"?
that is not a good enough reason considering you can get your base line nutrients from a serving size of a cereal every day.3 -
what reasons? Because processed foods retain less "nutrients"?
that is not a good enough reason considering you can get your base line nutrients from a serving size of a cereal every day.
You're welcome to read about the reasons for these recommendations from experts if you don't believe what I'm saying. Also added vitamins are actually not as good for you as naturally occurring vitamins, and taking daily synthetic vitamins actually may raise the risk of death, for reasons which are not entirely clear.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3339855/Vitamin-pills-increase-risk-of-early-death.html
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You're going to die of something anyway- I fail to see the level of concern here.
secondly- that's not what the article says exactly.
specifically it says long term impact hasn't been established.Their impact on long-term health may not have been fully established and they cannot be assumed to be without risk.
so- incorrect.3 -
(having problems quoting, this is in response to the last post from dragthewaters)
So your argument is that a food is less healthy simple because it's undergone processing? That seems like a circular argument where you're assuming that processing is just another way to say "less healthy." I also don't think you would find every nutritional expert would agree on that. Jack Norris and Virginia Messina, for instance, are both vegan RDs and neither one recommends a diet exclusively of unprocessed foods or recommends that a food should be avoided simply because it has undergone processing.
If you didn't know about heavy metal contaimination before today, what were you thinking of when you said protein powders were less healthy? Just going off the assumption that processing is inherently harmful? If that's the case, why draw in this article at all?
I'm not trying to waste your time. I think it's extremely irresponsible to encourage new vegans to base their nutritional planning on the assumption that a focus on protein is irrelevant (because you've defined a clinical diagnosis of protein deficiency as the only problem to avoid) or to avoid all processed foods. The truth is that processed foods can be a convenient, healthful, and tasty way for vegans (and others) to meet their nutritional needs, especially if they live in parts of the country where it can be more expensive or difficult to eat fresh produce year-round. Things like dried beans, canned tomatoes, nutritional yeast, plant milks, dried oats, frozen vegetables and fruits, soy sauce, dried herbs and spices, bean or grain-based pastas, plant oils, and nut butters are things that I eat frequently. I could meet my nutritional needs without them, but it might be more challenging (and certainly more expensive). Why should I avoid these just because some people claim that processing is inherently harmful? I'd rather look at the food and its qualities myself and judge whether or not it belongs in my diet.8 -
dragthewaters1991 wrote: »
Being vegan except for eggs is like being celibate except for sex. This isn't an issue with reading comprehension, it's about what "vegan" actually means.10 -
side note Jane- I think I finally realized on Friday that you're avatar was a turtle eating what appears to be potatoes.
Don't ask me what I thought it was before- I'm not sure.1 -
side note Jane- I think I finally realized on Friday that you're avatar was a turtle eating what appears to be potatoes.
Don't ask me what I thought it was before- I'm not sure.
There was a thread a while ago where people were discussing what they saw . . . a lot of people thought it was steak and potatoes! It was almost like a personality test, all the different things that people see in the picture . . .2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It's also worth noting that the concern really seems to be "you don't need huge amounts of protein" (which is not what is being discussed here)
Literally the title of the original post is "how much protein do I really need to be consuming?" My answer was "not as much as the current obsession with protein would have you believe" and there were other answers along those lines before mine, so I'm not sure why everyone is picking a fight with me.You're going to die of something anyway- I fail to see the level of concern here.
secondly- that's not what the article says exactly.
specifically it says long term impact hasn't been established.Their impact on long-term health may not have been fully established and they cannot be assumed to be without risk.
so- incorrect.
Now you're just arguing with me for the sake of arguing with me. If you don't care what you eat or how long you live then why are you even on MFP?
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