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Natural is Healthy Fallacy
jgnatca
Posts: 14,464 Member
in Debate Club
There’s an editorial in today’s local paper regarding the public speaking career of a man convicted in the death of his toddler son, from very treatable Meningitis.
After social media outcry, his two speaking engagements at a health expo have been cancelled. The promoter had never checked his background.
Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/paula-simons-the-wellness-game-isnt-medicine-its-show-biz
I wonder sometimes if our ultra safe society helped cause this complacency. After all, there are rules these days. Snake oil salesmen aren’t putting cocaine or arsenic in their products any more. At least I hope they aren’t. The worst that can happen is that shills end up buying expensive sugar pills.
Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
After social media outcry, his two speaking engagements at a health expo have been cancelled. The promoter had never checked his background.
Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/paula-simons-the-wellness-game-isnt-medicine-its-show-biz
I wonder sometimes if our ultra safe society helped cause this complacency. After all, there are rules these days. Snake oil salesmen aren’t putting cocaine or arsenic in their products any more. At least I hope they aren’t. The worst that can happen is that shills end up buying expensive sugar pills.
Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
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Replies
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Tarred, feathered and run out of town on a rail for all woo-proponents.1
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It was at a health expo that I first heard the Paleo theory. A power point and a room full of wallets is a dangerous combination.11
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I guess this topic is not as controversial as I thought?1
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Not to mention the male part will desperately be trying to contact the local florist because of Valentine's day.
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There’s an editorial in today’s local paper regarding the public speaking career of a man convicted in the death of his toddler son, from very treatable Meningitis.
After social media outcry, his two speaking engagements at a health expo have been cancelled. The promoter had never checked his background.
Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
http://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/paula-simons-the-wellness-game-isnt-medicine-its-show-biz
I wonder sometimes if our ultra safe society helped cause this complacency. After all, there are rules these days. Snake oil salesmen aren’t putting cocaine or arsenic in their products any more. At least I hope they aren’t. The worst that can happen is that shills end up buying expensive sugar pills.
Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
No. He doesn't.
There is validity in having different and at times controversial ideas/opinions. Our society would be much less rich without that. But I draw the line when people's lives (children who can't protect themselves especially) are being put at risk.4 -
I am pretty sure this father is incapable of absorbing the facts of his son’s death. I’m even angrier at the expo organizer for not back checking his speakers.0
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Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
I can't think of anything of this nature that I've bought. If it's a food that is porported to be healthy I might try it if it sounds good. I probably wouldn't do much research if it was something commonly eaten since obviously it's generally safe to eat and I like trying new foods. But I wouldn't continue to eat it if I didn't like it.
If it were a supplement I'd be unlikely to research or try it. I'm not in to supplements. If I did decide to try it I would for sure research it first.Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
I would not say he 'deserves' a platform but I'm American and a strong believer that our 1st amendment is a great thing.4 -
ladyreva78 wrote: »
Not to mention the male part will desperately be trying to contact the local florist because of Valentine's day.
LOL0 -
I am pretty sure this father is incapable of absorbing the facts of his son’s death. I’m even angrier at the expo organizer for not back checking his speakers.
I could forgive the father, except it seems he knows what he is selling is crap.
I can't forgive the expo organizer and, from the sounds of it, he's gonna go under from his mistake.
These "health" expos are big bucks and it's pretty clear the main point is to suck money from the gullible. So having one go under does not break my heart.0 -
ladyreva78 wrote: »
Not to mention the male part will desperately be trying to contact the local florist because of Valentine's day.
Bought flowers at Kroger earlier this week (cheaper and get to see the bouquet myself before buying, plus no delivery fee) and picked up a card and candy last night.
Still gotta sign the card though...
ETA: We agreed to not buy gifts for each other and just get something for the house together instead but I'm no dummy...11 -
Thanks all for your contributions.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
I can't think of anything of this nature that I've bought. If it's a food that is porported to be healthy I might try it if it sounds good. I probably wouldn't do much research if it was something commonly eaten since obviously it's generally safe to eat and I like trying new foods. But I wouldn't continue to eat it if I didn't like it.
If it were a supplement I'd be unlikely to research or try it. I'm not in to supplements. If I did decide to try it I would for sure research it first.Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
I would not say he 'deserves' a platform but I'm American and a strong believer that our 1st amendment is a great thing.
I’m Canadian with a strong history of democratic rights but no Civil War and no first amendment. I think the market needs to show restraint on how big a platform it gives to dangerous people.
About trying supplements and new foods. I love variety so I’ll try new things. I have Chia, Quinoa and buckwheat in my pantry.
I also have bacon. I bought a big bag of white sugar on sale. It will likely last me five years.
I also have Tylenol Cold.1 -
Arsenic is all natural.4
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concordancia wrote: »Arsenic is all natural.
And an essential nutrient
So is Cyanide.
Dose matters.4 -
- The 'health expo' (I really have trouble calling it that!) coordinator should have done his homework.
- What happened to that poor child is tragic and preventable.
- I do believe to a certain extent in caveat emptor. Why more people don't reasearch this *kitten* is beyond me.
- That said, I wouldn't mind seeing them shut down
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Awww kitten is love today. How cute!1
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Thanks all for your contributions.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Extending this to healthy eating, how far do you go to confirm extraordinary claims before you buy?
I can't think of anything of this nature that I've bought. If it's a food that is porported to be healthy I might try it if it sounds good. I probably wouldn't do much research if it was something commonly eaten since obviously it's generally safe to eat and I like trying new foods. But I wouldn't continue to eat it if I didn't like it.
If it were a supplement I'd be unlikely to research or try it. I'm not in to supplements. If I did decide to try it I would for sure research it first.Unless we get extreme examples like this strange man. He’s dangerous. Does he deserve a platform for his version of reality?
I would not say he 'deserves' a platform but I'm American and a strong believer that our 1st amendment is a great thing.
I’m Canadian with a strong history of democratic rights but no Civil War and no first amendment. I think the market needs to show restraint on how big a platform it gives to dangerous people.
What/who do you mean by "the market" and what type of restraint do you mean?0 -
What do people call research these days? Read the top five hits in google, a Netflix documentary, and a few testimonials? No wonder people are confused.
“The market” in this case is the health food industry represented by the health expo promoter. Do appropriate background checks.
How different would it be in the US right now if there had been more rigorous background checks on the fitness of the electoral candidates?2 -
I agree that it would wonderful and ideal if health expos (I'm not totally sure what that means tbh) did appropriate background checks. I'm just not sure how or by whom that would be regulated or enforced.
And I wonder how much difference it would make. There are so many other ways to distribute nonsense these days.0 -
We don’t need regulations to slap down an operation like this. Market forces and publicity will take care of it.
Here are the event organizers.
http://www.wellnessexpo.com
Do you not have expos in the US? It’s a collection of booths with vendors hawking their wares and an area set aside for speakers. The event typically spans a weekend.
I go for the swag.
Hubby and I have attended auto, camera, home and garden, wedding, agricultural and health expos.0 -
As for making a difference, it disturbs me deeply that a delusional parent who has not come to terms with his deadly beliefs, is finding a platform to reinforce these delusions. (Grandeur).0
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We don’t need regulations to slap down an operation like this. Market forces and publicity will take care of it.
Here are the event organizers.
http://www.wellnessexpo.com
Do you not have expos in the US? It’s a collection of booths with vendors hawking their wares and an area set aside for speakers. The event typically spans a weekend.
I go for the swag.
Hubby and I have attended auto, camera, home and garden, wedding, agricultural and health expos.
There probably are health expos in the US. It's a big country. I've never heard of one near me but I live in a very rural area. We have that sort of thing for hunting & fishing, camping and arts & crafts, though.0 -
We don’t need regulations to slap down an operation like this. Market forces and publicity will take care of it.
Here are the event organizers.
http://www.wellnessexpo.com
Do you not have expos in the US? It’s a collection of booths with vendors hawking their wares and an area set aside for speakers. The event typically spans a weekend.
I go for the swag.
Hubby and I have attended auto, camera, home and garden, wedding, agricultural and health expos.
We have them in the US. Personally, if they're commercial events, I expect them to be full of flapdoodle; and I do not feel that speakers need to be background checked (caveat emptor), especially if this lack is noted somewhere in the small print.
That said, I think the speaker-to-have-been is beyond the pale (assuming his speech is not about his grave error and deep contrition), and that it would've been fun to go to the event and out him to the audience. That the public outrage would hit the event promoter hard in the pocket book, the place he cares about most, seems like justice enough.
If someone took the idiot's idiotic advice, and suffered for it, it seems like both speaker and promoter could be liable for civil damages, perhaps even criminal charges in a narrow range of very egregious cases, and that's about as far as I'd want the government mucking around in it. The government's already underperforming on enough vitally important fronts; they don't need to be spread even thinner.3 -
I will sadly admit that I have fallen for snake oil salesmen in the past and bought the magic pill that will help me with weight loss. I don't like to think of myself as a stupid person, but boy can I jump on a bandwagon, even when I have doubts about the product. Ultimately the only thing that got lighter was my wallet. There is just so much of it these days, I just saw leggings advertised on FB that contain some magic potion that will help you slim down. I mean really??? but you know people will buy it. Very few people are interested in hard work for results these days. I get now 1
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The majority of sellers at just about any expo are scammers. They know that they can convince people at venues that revolve around health with some gobly gook speaking and cherry picking evidence to support their product. IMO, the ones who buy into it hopefully learn a lesson. Caveat emptor.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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fionawilliamson wrote: »I will sadly admit that I have fallen for snake oil salesmen in the past and bought the magic pill that will help me with weight loss. I don't like to think of myself as a stupid person, but boy can I jump on a bandwagon, even when I have doubts about the product. Ultimately the only thing that got lighter was my wallet. There is just so much of it these days, I just saw leggings advertised on FB that contain some magic potion that will help you slim down. I mean really??? but you know people will buy it. Very few people are interested in hard work for results these days. I get now
"Spandex"? 3 -
I wonder sometimes if our ultra safe society helped cause this complacency. After all, there are rules these days. Snake oil salesmen aren’t putting cocaine or arsenic in their products any more. At least I hope they aren’t. The worst that can happen is that shills end up buying expensive sugar pills. ...
IMHO, it's not that we have an ultra safe society, it's that the government has worked really hard to make us believe that we do, and that they are the reason for this. I think this contributes to a lot of people's beliefs about some of the more outrageous health claims, actually - most people believe the claims that are TOO out there would be illegal, so the promoters can't lie too much.
Now don't get me wrong, we DO have laws that are geared to protect the public. But at the same time, companies battle constantly to get around those laws, or have exceptions made, or flat out ignore them or 'reinterpret' them so that they can do whatever the heck they want to, usually within the bounds of 'make the most money without so many overt problems that our PR bites the dust and/or we lost too much money in lawsuits or penalties.'
Companies are allowed to add chemicals and substances to make things seem fresher or different than they are, change the names of ingredients so they can say they are 'free' from an ingredient when they have something that is essentially identical. They can create their own definitions of what it means to be 'free' from something (an allergen, nitrates, whatever).
Chemicals are banned, but then exceptions and exemptions are made so frequently that it becomes almost meaningless (strawberries and Methyl Bromide are a good example).
Arsenic - that's actually only regulated in water and in animal products. So while putting IN a poison like arsenic into a food might be hard to justify, HAVING too much arsenic in food due to the area it's grown or contamination in the soil? THAT is perfectly all right and legal as there are no regulations about it - and it does result in foods that can be relatively high in arsenic, at least above levels allowed in water (such as in rice, which was shown in a study done by consumer reports within the last 5 years or so).
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What do people call research these days? Read the top five hits in google, a Netflix documentary, and a few testimonials? No wonder people are confused.
“The market” in this case is the health food industry represented by the health expo promoter. Do appropriate background checks.
How different would it be in the US right now if there had been more rigorous background checks on the fitness of the electoral candidates?
I don't know you, but if you'd been involved in party politics in the U.S. you'd have been able to get closer to the process of selecting them. It's worse than you think.0 -
@JeromeBarry1 my girlfriend says the GOP tried to stop Trump in Wisconsin but he had already built up too much momentum.
I’m Canadian but because of the proximity I’m pretty familiar with the Big Neighbour to the south.0 -
I wonder sometimes if our ultra safe society helped cause this complacency. After all, there are rules these days. Snake oil salesmen aren’t putting cocaine or arsenic in their products any more. At least I hope they aren’t. The worst that can happen is that shills end up buying expensive sugar pills. ...
IMHO, it's not that we have an ultra safe society, it's that the government has worked really hard to make us believe that we do, and that they are the reason for this. I think this contributes to a lot of people's beliefs about some of the more outrageous health claims, actually - most people believe the claims that are TOO out there would be illegal, so the promoters can't lie too much.
Now don't get me wrong, we DO have laws that are geared to protect the public. But at the same time, companies battle constantly to get around those laws, or have exceptions made, or flat out ignore them or 'reinterpret' them so that they can do whatever the heck they want to, usually within the bounds of 'make the most money without so many overt problems that our PR bites the dust and/or we lost too much money in lawsuits or penalties.'
Companies are allowed to add chemicals and substances to make things seem fresher or different than they are, change the names of ingredients so they can say they are 'free' from an ingredient when they have something that is essentially identical. They can create their own definitions of what it means to be 'free' from something (an allergen, nitrates, whatever).
Chemicals are banned, but then exceptions and exemptions are made so frequently that it becomes almost meaningless (strawberries and Methyl Bromide are a good example).
Arsenic - that's actually only regulated in water and in animal products. So while putting IN a poison like arsenic into a food might be hard to justify, HAVING too much arsenic in food due to the area it's grown or contamination in the soil? THAT is perfectly all right and legal as there are no regulations about it - and it does result in foods that can be relatively high in arsenic, at least above levels allowed in water (such as in rice, which was shown in a study done by consumer reports within the last 5 years or so).
For fun I’ve been reading local newspapers from the Edwardian era. Today I read a tip to fix colours in fabrics - soak it in a solution of “sugar of lead” which turns out to be a thing, and was so named because it tastes sweet. It also happens to be as toxic as it sounds.
I can live with background amounts of all sorts of dangerous substances. I haven’t given up on my Tuna. Because this stuff has always been around.
We are living in a relatively healthy and safe period.
Also in the same paper was the Surgeon General’s report of hospitalizations. The top contenders are the flu, Red Measles and something called St. Vitus ’ dance. This last one is a streptococcus infection. There’s also a sad story of an engineer badly scalded who died after three days of historic struggle.
The world was on the cusp of wide application of antibiotics and vaccines were in their infancy. Surgery was new as antisepsis was new.
Dish soap, hair cleaners and tooth cleaners came in a powder.2
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