So confused. How does your body actually lose fat?
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Please link to Lyle's write up discussing this phenomenon. Lyle is highly knowledgeable about ketogenic diets (has authored several books on the topic) and I don't recall him ever discussing such a thing as "starvation diabetes" or claiming that your body "forgets how to process carbs".
It's in his book 'The ketogenic diet'. This from his piece talking about reintroduction of carbohydrates.
'Early ketogenic diet literature mentions a condition called ‘alloxan’ or ‘starvation diabetes’, referring to an initial
insulin resistance when carbohydrates are reintroduced to the diet following carbohydrate
restriction (2).'
'Long periods of time without carbohydrate consumption leads to a down regulation in the
enzymes responsible for carbohydrate burning. Additionally, high levels of free fatty acids in the
bloodstream may impair glucose transport (6).'
He talks about how your body adapts to lower carb levels with various tissues taking time to adjust to burning free fatty acids directly.
Note I am not making any claims about a ketogenic diet as the last two posters seem to suggest. All I am claiming is that there is an adaptation process going on in both directions it seems. During the adaption other mechanisms or fuel sources are used and performance may be degraded. It doesn't change the fundamental calories in/out equation.
Stated that way it makes sense to me. I mean ketogenesis is an alternate metabolic pathway, it does make sense that in a diet with practically no carbs that enzymes related to carbhohydrate metabolism would be downregulated and enzymes related to fatty acid metabolism and ketone body production for the catabolic formation of sugars would be upregulated.
But...and this is a big but....phrasing it as your body needs to "learn" how to digest fat makes it sound like that sort of adaptation takes a long time when it doesn't. If someone in a keto state eats carbs I am pretty sure all that is going to happen is insulin will kick in, glucose will be brought from the blood into cells, carb metabolism enzymes will be upregulated and it will be buisness as usual. Sure, there might be a slight delay since those enzymes aren't present and upregulation needs to happen...but I'd guess we are talking a delay of minutes not days.
It should be noted my above paragraph is speculation based on my knowledge of what gene regulation looks like and the speed at which it occurs, not actual knowledge about the specifics of ketotic states or what happens specifically in that situation. I'm not that well read on ketogenic diets because that sort of approach is not something I would ever want to do to myself.6 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Please link to Lyle's write up discussing this phenomenon. Lyle is highly knowledgeable about ketogenic diets (has authored several books on the topic) and I don't recall him ever discussing such a thing as "starvation diabetes" or claiming that your body "forgets how to process carbs".
It's in his book 'The ketogenic diet'. This from his piece talking about reintroduction of carbohydrates.
'Early ketogenic diet literature mentions a condition called ‘alloxan’ or ‘starvation diabetes’, referring to an initial
insulin resistance when carbohydrates are reintroduced to the diet following carbohydrate
restriction (2).'
'Long periods of time without carbohydrate consumption leads to a down regulation in the
enzymes responsible for carbohydrate burning. Additionally, high levels of free fatty acids in the
bloodstream may impair glucose transport (6).'
He talks about how your body adapts to lower carb levels with various tissues taking time to adjust to burning free fatty acids directly.
Note I am not making any claims about a ketogenic diet as the last two posters seem to suggest. All I am claiming is that there is an adaptation process going on in both directions it seems. During the adaption other mechanisms or fuel sources are used and performance may be degraded. It doesn't change the fundamental calories in/out equation.
Stated that way it makes sense to me. I mean ketogenesis is an alternate metabolic pathway, it does make sense that in a diet with practically no carbs that enzymes related to carbhohydrate metabolism would be downregulated and enzymes related to fatty acid metabolism and ketone body production for the catabolic formation of sugars would be upregulated.
But...and this is a big but....phrasing it as your body needs to "learn" how to digest fat makes it sound like that sort of adaptation takes a long time when it doesn't. If someone in a keto state eats carbs I am pretty sure all that is going to happen is insulin will kick in, glucose will be brought from the blood into cells, carb metabolism enzymes will be upregulated and it will be buisness as usual. Sure, there might be a slight delay since those enzymes aren't present and upregulation needs to happen...but I'd guess we are talking a delay of minutes not days.
It should be noted my above paragraph is speculation based on my knowledge of what gene regulation looks like and the speed at which it occurs, not actual knowledge about the specifics of ketotic states or what happens specifically in that situation. I'm not that well read on ketogenic diets because that sort of approach is not something I would ever want to do to myself.
From personal experience having done keto with re-feed days, the speed is in hours, not days.2 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Stated that way it makes sense to me. I mean ketogenesis is an alternate metabolic pathway, it does make sense that in a diet with practically no carbs that enzymes related to carbhohydrate metabolism would be downregulated and enzymes related to fatty acid metabolism and ketone body production for the catabolic formation of sugars would be upregulated.
But...and this is a big but....phrasing it as your body needs to "learn" how to digest fat makes it sound like that sort of adaptation takes a long time when it doesn't.
In his write up though Lyle talks about the second week of a ketogenic diet were tissues start to use free fatty acids. I agree that 'learn' is a crappy way to describe it but adaptation does occur and it takes quite a long time if we are measuring it in weeks.
I think in peoples zeal to press woo or refute they miss the fact that the ketogenic diet does cause the body to adapt over quite a long time to process fats more directly and completely. Rather than be a reason why this makes the diet better for weight loss it is probably why it doesn't. Your body adapts to more fully utilize what you eat (more fat) and hence you don't need to say eat your own muscle protein to get the energy your body needs.
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »Stated that way it makes sense to me. I mean ketogenesis is an alternate metabolic pathway, it does make sense that in a diet with practically no carbs that enzymes related to carbhohydrate metabolism would be downregulated and enzymes related to fatty acid metabolism and ketone body production for the catabolic formation of sugars would be upregulated.
But...and this is a big but....phrasing it as your body needs to "learn" how to digest fat makes it sound like that sort of adaptation takes a long time when it doesn't.
In his write up though Lyle talks about the second week of a ketogenic diet were tissues start to use free fatty acids. I agree that 'learn' is a crappy way to describe it but adaptation does occur and it takes quite a long time if we are measuring it in weeks.
I think in peoples zeal to press woo or refute they miss the fact that the ketogenic diet does cause the body to adapt over quite a long time to process fats more directly and completely. Rather than be a reason why this makes the diet better for weight loss it is probably why it doesn't. Your body adapts to more fully utilize what you eat (more fat) and hence you don't need to say eat your own muscle protein to get the energy your body needs.
Well I think at this point I'd just say I don't honestly know enough about the details of ketogenesis to comment, I've never really studied up on that. To me you sound informed and well intentioned and are willing to discuss in a reasonable way. You may be right, you may be wrong....I don't know. I'll leave it to those who know more about this specific area to discuss.1 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »Well I think at this point I'd just say I don't honestly know enough about the details of ketogenesis to comment, I've never really studied up on that. To me you sound informed and well intentioned and are willing to discuss in a reasonable way. You may be right, you may be wrong....I don't know. I'll leave it to those who know more about this specific area to discuss.
I highly recommend Lyle's book. I was riveted for a few days as I read these sections on adaptation.
I personally do not follow a low carb diet. Last time I checked I was ingesting ~150g of carbs a day. I eat at least 38g of fiber though so net lets say 100g / day. I do find I am in ketosis as measured from urine ketones (and Lyle has a lot to say about the inaccuracy of this) quite often. Typically I wake up in ketosis. Breakfast kicks me out and exercise at the gym kicks me back in.
Lyle suggests in his book that low carb might work better for some people (in the sticking to it type deal rather than weight loss) and higher carb might work better for others. Athletic performance for endurance athletes might be better after low carb adaptation and the jury is out on say strength training (though I think he expects degredation of performance, I see that). Low carb might be better for protein sparing but I found it hard to understand what he thought over all on this.
Reading the book didn't help me loose any more weight except maybe that I forgot about eating while reading!
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I wasn't talking about fatty acid usage, I was referring to glucose storage - the effects of which are almost immediately available with water weight gain and plumper/fuller looking muscles.0 -
This is personal view of ketogenic diets.
Diets that quickly gain popularity are the type of diets that give strict instructions and produce rapid weight loss in the first few weeks that you start. This gives people both the feeling that they have a clear thing they need to do and the gratification of seeing instant results.
As an example many diets require that you eat only whole foods or you eat "clean" or you avoid take-out. Really what you are doing there is avoiding things that have a lot of sodium that you previously ate regularly. As a result your sodium levels plummet and you drop like 6 pounds of water weight over the course of the first couple of weeks. Gives that "Wow this really works!" feeling even though really all you did is drop some retained water.
Keto I feel fits this category. When you drop carbonhydrates from your diet your body is forced to flip on an alternate metabolic pathway to use dietary fat to convert into glucose. Before that happens your blood sugar drops, glucagon is upregulated and your glycogen stores are fully depleated. Glycogen requires a lot of water to solubilize so when you metabolise your glycogen stores you release a lot of retained water and just like with sodium you end up dropping like 6+ pounds of water weight in the first week or two. Strict dietary requirements plus instant gratification equals popular fad diet.
Neither of these approaches are better than just reducing your overall calorie consumption through moderation but if all you do is eat less of the foods you already eat you aren't going to get that 6+ pounds of dropped water weight in the first 2 weeks so you aren't going to get that instant gratification. It might take months to see a clear trend of loss. Those diets that do give you that rapid initial loss tend to be unneccesarily strict and force you to eat a rather unbalanced and constrained diet, really for no reason other than to fool yourself into thinking you are immediately successful with dropped water weight. Not only that but if you stray at all from those strict terms chances are you will take in some sodium or eat some carbs that will slap some of that water weight back on you and make you freak out when the scale goes up 4 pounds in a day. No thanks.
In the case of ketogenic diets you get the added drawback that that pathway produces a lot of a acetone which is not exactly the best for you and something your body has to deal with in addition to making your breath smell. So you have an extremely restricted diet, your body is compensating for the lack of carbs by essentially tapping a not regularly used alternate metabolic pathway that is there to deal with starvation conditions and you are producing acetone. If this gets you into a calorically restricted state then yeah you will lose fat over time, but you would have done that getting into a calorically restricted state in any number of other ways that aren't nearly as restrictive.
If you know that it is hard to imagine you would opt to choose a ketogenic diet. I do understand that eating protein and fat and low carb can be satiating in such a way that it might be easier to feel full on a low calorie diet and that is why some people choose to stick with it but still...no thanks. I'd rather just count calories and be able to eat whatever I want to eat in moderation.17 -
They likey.fromnebraska wrote: »So why are people bothering with this crazy keto thing if they can lose weight by eating a large variety of foods?
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Meerman also has a youtube video on the subject that's been posted here recently.ZaryaZarina wrote: »This is a cool article about what happens when your body burns fat, on any diet: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/12/16/371210831/when-you-burn-off-that-fat-where-does-it-go
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I wasn't talking about fatty acid usage, I was referring to glucose storage - the effects of which are almost immediately available with water weight gain and plumper/fuller looking muscles.
OK. My original point was that fat metabolism changed under low carb and took time to do so. I added the problem of the reverse process (starvation diabetes) as an interesting aside.
Since I slip in and out of ketosis quite frequently I like to think I do still have the enzymes etc to process carbs. Blood sugar is great but never checked A1C and I assume spikes would show up there.1 -
fromnebraska wrote: »So why are people bothering with this crazy keto thing if they can lose weight by eating a large variety of foods?
They genuinely think they will lose weight faster. In the last four months I’ve lost 45lbs by ditching junk food and eating about 60% carbs from plant based sources. MFP friends who are eating the same calories as me but are doing Keto haven’t lost the weight as fast...
If you give your body fats as fuel it will adapt to using that fuel, but if you aren’t creating enough of a calorie deficit your not going to lose weight faster long term.
Keto sites like to use Inuit/Eskimos as an example of a population that naturally lives on a high fat low carb diet with no ill effects. But the truth is they live a shorter lifespan by 10 years than Canadians overall. Plus they suffer with higher rates of osteoporosis.
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90kgToNewMe wrote: »They genuinely think they will lose weight faster. In the last four months I’ve lost 45lbs by ditching junk food and eating about 60% carbs from plant based sources. MFP friends who are eating the same calories as me but are doing Keto haven’t lost the weight as fast...
Now you are saying that you loose more weight on a diet with high carbs to a diet with the same calories that's high fat. I don't think the science supports that either. The science suggests that with similar calories in and out you get similar weight loss. Of course there are all kinds of strange things that get reported like high fiber diets loose some calories in whats ingested and the fact that nuts don't seem to give up all their calories.
Low carb might well be easier to stick to for some people. I find it interesting in that program 'My 600lb life' he puts them on low carb high protein diets. So he clearly thinks his giant customers work better on low carb. I am guessing they are all diabetic though. I love this program even though it seems to be hated here. I just wish he gave out more information in the program.
Doctor a few days ago said my son just got off some 85 percentile line for weight for his age and to try to address this. She asked if he eat a lot of carbs which seem immaterial to weight gain.
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Agreed you should get similar weight loss with similar calories regardless of macros. I always say “Calories in, calories out”. I don’t know why these Keto people haven’t lost the weight as fast as me when they are logging the same calories. my point is you can eat relatively high complex carb and lose weight at a healthy rate. You don’t need to go Keto or High protein and potentially risk your long term health.
I think the problem is people eat a lot of unhealthy carbs which don’t fill them up so they feel the need to go Keto or high protein for satiety.
At the end of the day though, whatever makes people happy and lose weight is most important. We have to do what makes up happy and I’ve been very happy losing weight whilst eating lots of plant based foods in volumes that would be too high carb for a lot of diets.
I know saying it makes me unpopular. People prefer to hear they can eat lots of fat and protein for some reason.2 -
90kgToNewMe wrote: »People prefer to hear they can eat lots of fat and protein for some reason.
My guess as to why that is is that it is "common sense" (note quotes) that fat makes you fat so when someone determines that they can actually eat lots of fat but in fact lose weight they feel like they have stumbled upon some secret knowledge and they get really uppity about it. Not saying that is true of all keto people, not trying to overgeneralize here, but yeah...that is a thing.
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90kgToNewMe wrote: »Agreed you should get similar weight loss with similar calories regardless of macros. I always say “Calories in, calories out”. I don’t know why these Keto people haven’t lost the weight as fast as me when they are logging the same calories. my point is you can eat relatively high complex carb and lose weight at a healthy rate. You don’t need to go Keto or High protein and potentially risk your long term health.
I think the problem is people eat a lot of unhealthy carbs which don’t fill them up so they feel the need to go Keto or high protein for satiety.
At the end of the day though, whatever makes people happy and lose weight is most important. We have to do what makes up happy and I’ve been very happy losing weight whilst eating lots of plant based foods in volumes that would be too high carb for a lot of diets.
I know saying it makes me unpopular. People prefer to hear they can eat lots of fat and protein for some reason.
Itsd because they aren't you. They don't have the same daily routine, they have different logging errors and omissions, they estimate their exercise differently, they have more compliance challenges, . . . who knows.
I lose or maintain on unreasonably high calories (for my demographic) for some reason (lucky me). The magic of my particular way of eating is the least likely potential explanation.
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Aaron_K123 wrote: »This is personal view of ketogenic diets.
Diets that quickly gain popularity are the type of diets that give strict instructions and produce rapid weight loss in the first few weeks that you start. This gives people both the feeling that they have a clear thing they need to do and the gratification of seeing instant results.
As an example many diets require that you eat only whole foods or you eat "clean" or you avoid take-out. Really what you are doing there is avoiding things that have a lot of sodium that you previously ate regularly. As a result your sodium levels plummet and you drop like 6 pounds of water weight over the course of the first couple of weeks. Gives that "Wow this really works!" feeling even though really all you did is drop some retained water.
Keto I feel fits this category. When you drop carbonhydrates from your diet your body is forced to flip on an alternate metabolic pathway to use dietary fat to convert into glucose. Before that happens your blood sugar drops, glucagon is upregulated and your glycogen stores are fully depleated. Glycogen requires a lot of water to solubilize so when you metabolise your glycogen stores you release a lot of retained water and just like with sodium you end up dropping like 6+ pounds of water weight in the first week or two. Strict dietary requirements plus instant gratification equals popular fad diet.
Neither of these approaches are better than just reducing your overall calorie consumption through moderation but if all you do is eat less of the foods you already eat you aren't going to get that 6+ pounds of dropped water weight in the first 2 weeks so you aren't going to get that instant gratification. It might take months to see a clear trend of loss. Those diets that do give you that rapid initial loss tend to be unneccesarily strict and force you to eat a rather unbalanced and constrained diet, really for no reason other than to fool yourself into thinking you are immediately successful with dropped water weight. Not only that but if you stray at all from those strict terms chances are you will take in some sodium or eat some carbs that will slap some of that water weight back on you and make you freak out when the scale goes up 4 pounds in a day. No thanks.
In the case of ketogenic diets you get the added drawback that that pathway produces a lot of a acetone which is not exactly the best for you and something your body has to deal with in addition to making your breath smell. So you have an extremely restricted diet, your body is compensating for the lack of carbs by essentially tapping a not regularly used alternate metabolic pathway that is there to deal with starvation conditions and you are producing acetone. If this gets you into a calorically restricted state then yeah you will lose fat over time, but you would have done that getting into a calorically restricted state in any number of other ways that aren't nearly as restrictive.
If you know that it is hard to imagine you would opt to choose a ketogenic diet. I do understand that eating protein and fat and low carb can be satiating in such a way that it might be easier to feel full on a low calorie diet and that is why some people choose to stick with it but still...no thanks. I'd rather just count calories and be able to eat whatever I want to eat in moderation.
This is brilliant. Applause!0 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »
Right? The Aaron Appreciation Society has been active for some time over in our little corner...
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fromnebraska wrote: »So why are people bothering with this crazy keto thing if they can lose weight by eating a large variety of foods?
the only guy i know well who eats keto is still doing it and still really happy with it after more than a year. fwiw, he's been 'obese' [but very strong] all the years i've known him, and he simply says keto is the only 'diet' he's ever undertaken that feels 'natural' to him.
that doesn't mean it would be natural to anyone else. for whatever reason, the macro lineup in keto is just sustainable for him. he's in his late thirties and says it's the first time he's ever successfully stayed in a deficit without hunger and cravings defeating him.
doesn't mean he wouldn't lose weight on a non-keto diet. he's done that too, and it's worked too. but the way he put it the last time he talked about it was 'sure, but why would i want to be miserable for the rest of my life if i didn't need to?' for (again) whatever reason, keto is the way of eating that makes him non-miserable.3 -
90kgToNewMe wrote: »Agreed you should get similar weight loss with similar calories regardless of macros. I always say “Calories in, calories out”. I don’t know why these Keto people haven’t lost the weight as fast as me when they are logging the same calories. my point is you can eat relatively high complex carb and lose weight at a healthy rate. You don’t need to go Keto or High protein and potentially risk your long term health.
I think the problem is people eat a lot of unhealthy carbs which don’t fill them up so they feel the need to go Keto or high protein for satiety.
At the end of the day though, whatever makes people happy and lose weight is most important. We have to do what makes up happy and I’ve been very happy losing weight whilst eating lots of plant based foods in volumes that would be too high carb for a lot of diets.
I know saying it makes me unpopular. People prefer to hear they can eat lots of fat and protein for some reason.
Itsd because they aren't you. They don't have the same daily routine, they have different logging errors and omissions, they estimate their exercise differently, they have more compliance challenges, . . . who knows.
I lose or maintain on unreasonably high calories (for my demographic) for some reason (lucky me). The magic of my particular way of eating is the least likely potential explanation.
All true. However Keto hasn’t magically allowed them to be more compliant, log better, lose weight faster.
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