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Are Processed Foods "Bad"?
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Unless one is actually allergic to a food, no food is "bad". It's about the balance of getting vitamins/nutrients while at a caloric level that fits your goals. If you normally eat nutrient dense/low calorie foods, having junk food isn't bad. Also, there are different levels of processing that goes into food. Milk from the supermarket is processed food, so is bread, and vitamins. "Processed" is just a vague term that has many different meanings and levels that you shouldn't focus on too much.
I think that's where the communication line tends to turn into some weird game of telephone. When you say "no food is bad" it automatically translates into "eating nothing but junk is as good as eating nutritious foods". Any explanation used after that just evaporates as if it didn't exist.
I was thinking, how do we improve communication on this particular subject? I still don't have a good answer. Maybe meet in the middle instead: there are bad foods, but that "badness" is not universal and needs context to be determined?
I like your objective, but don't know how to get there.
To a black and white thinker - which I fear includes many inclined to become "bad food/good food" advocates - I think badness is just bad. There is no contextualization needed or possible.
"Is" is a tricky word: Identity/equivalence, class membership, and the possessing of attributes, among others. "That tree is a plant" and "that tree is green" have similar form, very different meanings. Abstractions are equally tricky: Almost the whole point is to leave out some nuance or specificity.
What does it mean, to whom, to say a food is bad?
Sadly, I think there's little point in careful language when many parties to a conversation don't consider meaning carefully: "Processed" and "natural" are two witnesses. I'm not sure how to find common ground when abstractions are fuzzily defined yet still demonized.
I don't actually think the problem is a genuine difficulty with communication, as I've seen it explained as carefully and clearly as possible, and then someone PRETENDING to think the other is saying that eating only donuts is fine or some such. Maybe I'm just less nice or less patient than you and amusedmonkey, but IMO the kind of response amusedmonkey speaks of, given all the clarifications, just HAS to be bad faith, question is why? I think it's that they know they have no response, but get some ego boost from claiming to avoid processed foods or eat clean or what not (they get off on thinking that the rest of us must eat very poorly, since it's unimaginable to them that if you don't say foods are "bad" that you wouldn't then overeat them). Hmm, maybe it's that they secretly think the foods they have identified as good are undesirable and can't imagine anyone eating them willingly, without telling them that eating anything else will make them fat and dead? Don't know. But as I've said before, I'm just at the end of my rope with the fact that facts no longer seem to matter to a huge percentage of people and so I am ready to recognize it's not honest confusion.
But that disagreement aside, it seems to me that there's no conflict between saying individual foods aren't "bad" but that you shouldn't eat only donuts, since diets can be good or bad. A good diet contains all the nutrients you need and does not contain excess calories or excess other foods that can be problems in excess (sat fat being one such example, others likely depend on the person, some would need to avoid excess sodium, so on). Mostly if a diet has all you need and a diverse set of foods, you don't really have to worry about getting too much (I do think too much added sugar/sweets may be an issue, but in a nutrient-sufficient, calorie-appropriate diet, you aren't eating enough on a daily basis for it to be an issue, so it's adequate to say "eat a good diet").
And, as you and I agree on, it is my view that we probably don't know all the things that make foods that diets have contained for a long time, and which we now see have positive health correlations, good for us, so this is a reason to generally prefer the whole food to replacing it with just a vitamin (or perhaps protein powder) -- although this does not make vitamins or protein powder bad, just using them as your main source of those things. Thus, in my view a good diet does have a variety of whole foods or things that are made from whole foods (because that they are processed by someone else -- like the salad in a jar I bought from Farm Fresh yesterday (a vending machine) or, say, a wrap from Pret or those soups from Safeway we were discussing recently -- doesn't somehow remove the nutrients. Depending on the item it might, or might not, mean there's more of something you wish to consume in smaller amounts so may mean you need to cut back on that from other sources or not have whatever it is daily.
I won't speak for amusedmonkey, who seems truly kind. But I think you are actually being nicer than I am: You're giving people more credit than I am for intelligence, reasoning, insight. Some otherwise seemingly intelligent and insightful people do say these things, and probably do have some ego or evangelical ("fix others", controlling) reasons for doing so. Who knows?
But the whole construction of some of these arguments, and the nature of those same people's counter-arguments, make me believe a significant segment simply don't think very incisively. (My personal and professional life, and conversations on a variety of topics, lead me to this perspective, too. People don't have to agree with me for me to consider them clear-thinking, BTW . . . but careful use of language, and adequate logic, seem like signs of clarity).
Reluctantly, looking at external behavior, I may be somewhat "patient" sometimes. Absent other problems, simple lack of incisiveness is not a character fault, they deserve to succeed, so trying different ways of communicating seems worthwhile. (I hate it when people are unkind and dismissive here to new people who obviously just don't know key concepts and definitions yet (see "toning"
).) Moreover, misrepresentations should be countered in a way that's persuasive to silent readers, which usually requires a patient and kind tone, whether the writer feels patient or kind or not. I usually don't.
P.S. To readers: Don't bother telling me the above sounds arrogant. I already know that.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »I don't think most people intentionally try to create conflict when they make such statements.
As initial statements, I think they are mostly just not thought through terminology. I'll refer to foods as "bad" at times meaning "not nutrient dense/high cal" because it's so commonplace, I get it. But if you respond to someone explaining that they find it harmful to them to call foods bad (and give examples of harms) and that instead it works better to focus on overall diet with "you are just claiming foods aren't bad because you want to pretend it's okay to eat only donuts" then you aren't in good faith. Similarly, if several people explain that they focus on diet and getting in nutrients and see lots of processed foods (like smoked salmon, dried pasta, etc) as helpful to their diet and get the response "so you think it's okay to eat only McD?", then how is that a genuine misunderstanding? No one is really that dumb, it has to be willful.Food beliefs are core beliefs for some people because they can have some moral undertones and people want to believe the choices they make for their life are thoughtful and impactful. Challenging these thoughts and choices almost feels like a personal attack. When the core beliefs of someone are being challenged it's natural and expected to put up walls and blind yourself to some of what is being said to avoid this uncomfortable cognitive dissonance. This can manifest in genuine misunderstanding, or in defensiveness.
Yes, okay, this I agree with (but for the "genuine misunderstanding" bit) -- defensiveness, yeah.That's why I'm trying (and failing) to think of ways to communicate without directly opposing, but meeting in the middle and redirecting the conversation to a point of agreement. For example, I have stopped telling people junk food isn't junk or that cheating isn't cheating. I just use the words they chose to use.
Personally, I use "junk food" without problem. It's an American colloquialism that I don't think is taken seriously. People don't see it as a moral judgment in the way that is a problem, or at least many don't, I never have. I see it as descriptive (high cal, low needed nutrients). With "cheat," I'll usually say "I don't call it that, for me it's blah blah, but..." and not focus on the language. That's my current approach to "addiction" normally unless it becomes the actual subject of the discussion -- "I don't perceive it as the same as addiction, but when I wanted to cut down on overeating I...." and then get to the point.Not going to derail a discussion for semantics because that never ends well, but then I then try to redirect the conversation to something we both agree on like nutrients or share strategies I have come across to manage all kinds of what one would call cheating...etc.
I think this is right and a good approach, but it seems not helpful in a thread that is actually about "are processed foods bad" or some such (like this one) where you have lots of careful explanations and then someone pops in, ignores all, and claims that everyone not admitting processed (or "unnatural") foods are bad must be existing solely on pop and donuts.@AnnPT77 is right, though. Careful language may not have the expected impact when so many terms are poorly defined and gut-feely. "I feel this food is good for me, so it's good, I'm making the right choice. That other food doesn't feel right because the chemicals in it didn't grow on trees, so I will call it processed (because that's a bad word), unnatural, and not a choice I would want to make for my family"
I also will defend the importance of using words like this in a way that's not confusing. Describing an activity as "cheating" is not going to make the conversation confusing. Insisting all processed foods are full of sugar (which is false) because you have a personal (bizarre) definition of processed as meaning "contains added sugar" is something that prevents reasonable discussion and should be corrected.
Similarly, when someone uses carb to mean "cake" (which has as much fat as carbs) and NOT "an apple", that they are using "carb" incorrectly needs to be addressed for any discussion to occur, IMO.3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Unless one is actually allergic to a food, no food is "bad". It's about the balance of getting vitamins/nutrients while at a caloric level that fits your goals. If you normally eat nutrient dense/low calorie foods, having junk food isn't bad. Also, there are different levels of processing that goes into food. Milk from the supermarket is processed food, so is bread, and vitamins. "Processed" is just a vague term that has many different meanings and levels that you shouldn't focus on too much.
I think that's where the communication line tends to turn into some weird game of telephone. When you say "no food is bad" it automatically translates into "eating nothing but junk is as good as eating nutritious foods". Any explanation used after that just evaporates as if it didn't exist.
I was thinking, how do we improve communication on this particular subject? I still don't have a good answer. Maybe meet in the middle instead: there are bad foods, but that "badness" is not universal and needs context to be determined?
I like your objective, but don't know how to get there.
To a black and white thinker - which I fear includes many inclined to become "bad food/good food" advocates - I think badness is just bad. There is no contextualization needed or possible.
"Is" is a tricky word: Identity/equivalence, class membership, and the possessing of attributes, among others. "That tree is a plant" and "that tree is green" have similar form, very different meanings. Abstractions are equally tricky: Almost the whole point is to leave out some nuance or specificity.
What does it mean, to whom, to say a food is bad?
Sadly, I think there's little point in careful language when many parties to a conversation don't consider meaning carefully: "Processed" and "natural" are two witnesses. I'm not sure how to find common ground when abstractions are fuzzily defined yet still demonized.
I don't actually think the problem is a genuine difficulty with communication, as I've seen it explained as carefully and clearly as possible, and then someone PRETENDING to think the other is saying that eating only donuts is fine or some such. Maybe I'm just less nice or less patient than you and amusedmonkey, but IMO the kind of response amusedmonkey speaks of, given all the clarifications, just HAS to be bad faith, question is why? I think it's that they know they have no response, but get some ego boost from claiming to avoid processed foods or eat clean or what not (they get off on thinking that the rest of us must eat very poorly, since it's unimaginable to them that if you don't say foods are "bad" that you wouldn't then overeat them). Hmm, maybe it's that they secretly think the foods they have identified as good are undesirable and can't imagine anyone eating them willingly, without telling them that eating anything else will make them fat and dead? Don't know. But as I've said before, I'm just at the end of my rope with the fact that facts no longer seem to matter to a huge percentage of people and so I am ready to recognize it's not honest confusion.
But that disagreement aside, it seems to me that there's no conflict between saying individual foods aren't "bad" but that you shouldn't eat only donuts, since diets can be good or bad. A good diet contains all the nutrients you need and does not contain excess calories or excess other foods that can be problems in excess (sat fat being one such example, others likely depend on the person, some would need to avoid excess sodium, so on). Mostly if a diet has all you need and a diverse set of foods, you don't really have to worry about getting too much (I do think too much added sugar/sweets may be an issue, but in a nutrient-sufficient, calorie-appropriate diet, you aren't eating enough on a daily basis for it to be an issue, so it's adequate to say "eat a good diet").
And, as you and I agree on, it is my view that we probably don't know all the things that make foods that diets have contained for a long time, and which we now see have positive health correlations, good for us, so this is a reason to generally prefer the whole food to replacing it with just a vitamin (or perhaps protein powder) -- although this does not make vitamins or protein powder bad, just using them as your main source of those things. Thus, in my view a good diet does have a variety of whole foods or things that are made from whole foods (because that they are processed by someone else -- like the salad in a jar I bought from Farm Fresh yesterday (a vending machine) or, say, a wrap from Pret or those soups from Safeway we were discussing recently -- doesn't somehow remove the nutrients. Depending on the item it might, or might not, mean there's more of something you wish to consume in smaller amounts so may mean you need to cut back on that from other sources or not have whatever it is daily.
I won't speak for amusedmonkey, who seems truly kind. But I think you are actually being nicer than I am: You're giving people more credit than I am for intelligence, reasoning, insight. Some otherwise seemingly intelligent and insightful people do say these things, and probably do have some ego or evangelical ("fix others", controlling) reasons for doing so. Who knows?
But the whole construction of some of these arguments, and the nature of those same people's counter-arguments, make me believe a significant segment simply don't think very incisively. (My personal and professional life, and conversations on a variety of topics, lead me to this perspective, too. People don't have to agree with me for me to consider them clear-thinking, BTW . . . but careful use of language, and adequate logic, seem like signs of clarity).
Reluctantly, looking at external behavior, I may be somewhat "patient" sometimes. Absent other problems, simple lack of incisiveness is not a character fault, they deserve to succeed, so trying different ways of communicating seems worthwhile. (I hate it when people are unkind and dismissive here to new people who obviously just don't know key concepts and definitions yet (see "toning" ).) Moreover, misrepresentations should be countered in a way that's persuasive to silent readers, which usually requires a patient and kind tone, whether the writer feels patient or kind or not. I usually don't.
P.S. To readers: Don't bother telling me the above sounds arrogant. I already know that.
I was actually thinking something similar and you articulated it very well. There are a lot of posters on here, namely the three directly above me (yourself, amusedmonkey and lemurcat) who take careful consideration that their words convey the true meaning of that they are trying to get across, they really try to engage in thoughtful conversation and understand what others are trying to convey when they post. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen lemur dissect a post that someone else throws out where they seem to imply one thing and a devout belief in that thing, and lemur patiently tries to engage and respectfully question their post to see if it’s just a misunderstanding, often leaving it with a simple “I’d be open to discussing this further” and then never gets an actual response.
So I don’t know if it’s that some of these people feel challenged when their beliefs are questioned, no matter how respectfully the questions are written, if they are turned off by the thought of engaging in a long and pragmatic discussion with an Internet stranger, or if they just are so grounded in their simplistic rule set and have no intent of ever considering more complex, detailed logic behind WHY they believe the things they believe.
It’s impressive to me that posters like yourself, amused monkey and lemur do continue to try to bridge that gap of simple misunderstanding, logical reasoning and/or cognitive dissonance to see if a more common semantic ground can be reached. I try as well but usually take a bit more of a provocative approach with a “why are processed foods bad” to see if the person can articulate more of their beliefs, but I rarely get an answer either, so I’m not sure my approach is working!
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stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.11 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...7 -
I stopped asking myself that question, I just hate the fact we label a food good or bad.1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Not going to derail a discussion for semantics because that never ends well, but then I then try to redirect the conversation to something we both agree on like nutrients or share strategies I have come across to manage all kinds of what one would call cheating...etc.
I think this is right and a good approach, but it seems not helpful in a thread that is actually about "are processed foods bad" or some such (like this one) where you have lots of careful explanations and then someone pops in, ignores all, and claims that everyone not admitting processed (or "unnatural") foods are bad must be existing solely on pop and donuts.
Debate threads are an entirely different breed of discussions, so I will have to agree with you on that.
Edited to fix quotes.
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WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
As is 100% of the food from any grocery store. In my cake there are only two ingredients.9 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
As is 100% of the food from any grocery store. In my cake there are only two ingredients.
Raisins and almonds? Huh. I call that trail mix...10 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
As is 100% of the food from any grocery store. In my cake there are only two ingredients.
Have you given up the Mickey D's round eggs and burger patties?7 -
WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
Also, no other ingredients? Not a fruit cake. Maybe some version of an energy bar.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
Also, no other ingredients? Not a fruit cake. Maybe some version of an energy bar.
I don’t understand how it binds together?1 -
Squished together? That was my thought, but who knows.1
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WinoGelato wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
Also, no other ingredients? Not a fruit cake. Maybe some version of an energy bar.
I don’t understand how it binds together?
Maybe he blends the almonds to semi almond butter consistency, who knows. It's more like an energy bar than a cake (which I would personally overeat way more than a cake because both almonds and raisins are "can't have just one" kind of foods for me)3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
Both of which are processed...
As is 100% of the food from any grocery store. In my cake there are only two ingredients.
Have you given up the Mickey D's round eggs and burger patties?
Why should I? Do you have any science they lower your mitochondria count or their health?12 -
I find foods smooshed together weirdly disgusting (this is related to why I'm on the fence about nut butter, I don't like sticky consistencies), and I am also on the fence about raisins -- I like them in savory foods, weirdly, and find them ignorable in cookies, but on their own or too much of a factor in anything, ick.
I really enjoy dried apricots, on the other hand (which are also great in savory foods, as well as on their own -- prunes also nice in savory foods), but eat them rarely since I have a tough time controlling myself. My employer had a party where they catered in these spreads of dried fruit and nuts and fancy cheese from a local place (Pastoral), and I ate insane calories that evening, couldn't stop.
Don't think it had to do with processed or not.1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".8 -
stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
11 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.7 -
johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
12 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
https://youtu.be/oB-NnVpvQ78?t=78s 5 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
LOL
3 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
In that case, my cake trumps yours. I just had a tomato cake and it only has one ingredient with more minimal processing than your cake.11 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
In that case, my cake trumps yours. I just had a tomato cake and it only has one ingredient with more minimal processing than your cake.
My late MIL made an awesome fruit cake (howbeit high carb) but she never made a tomato cake. How do you get it thick enough to slice it and it keep its shape at room temperature as a fruit cake can do?7 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »ladyhusker39 wrote: »Packerjohn wrote: »Some processed foods are great. Some are pretty calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Can't make a blanket statement
I don't usually see people who claim to avoid processed foods to distinguish between the ones that are "great" and the one that are calorie heavy and nutrient poor.
Besides, what's wrong with a delicious piece of cake on occasion esp if it's within the context of an overall balanced diet?
You can have cake and not have it be processed. i think it's about the ingredients. to me processed food contains chemicals (such as preservatives) that does not occur naturally in food. i personally avoid processed food such as margarine and stick with foods if they are boxed and canned that do not have preservatives. Sometimes this is hard such as coconut milk because it contains guar but I still eat it. Just keep in mind avoiding food that never goes bad.
Explanation of processed food based on Weston A. Price:
Unfortunately, in modern times, we have substituted local artisanal processing with factory and industrial processing, which actually diminishes the quality of the food, rather than making it more nutritious and digestible. Industrial processing depends upon sugar, white flour, processed and hydrogenated oils, synthetic food additives and vitamins, heat treatment and the extrusion of grains.
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/modern-foods/dirty-secrets-of-the-food-processing-industry/
Can you show me the nearest cake tree? There's nothing about cake that is not processed.
My friuit cake contains only self ground almonds and raisins which currently I'm eating daily.
I don't know what to call this but it certainly wouldn't be "cake".
Thankfully you do not have a say in what I call it. I like being able to have my cake and eat it too on my WOE.
You can call it whatever you want. I can start introducing my cat as a purple mountain gorilla. Still doesn't make it so.
All true. The definition of cat is set more or less by science. Science has not gotten into defining cake yet.
In that case, my cake trumps yours. I just had a tomato cake and it only has one ingredient with more minimal processing than your cake.
My late MIL made an awesome fruit cake (howbeit high carb) but she never made a tomato cake. How do you get it thick enough to slice it and it keep its shape at room temperature as a fruit cake can do?
It's already in a single portion and keeps its shape really well, but you could slice it if you wish and it keeps its shape. Here is the proof:
14 -
This thread was going so much better on the last page, then it turned nuttier than a fruitcake yet again in less than a 1/4 mile walk.9
-
The OP question with the answer of yes, no or maybe just how long as it going to be meaningful? 5
-
In certain contexts cake is also pudding.
The almond patty is a calorie bomb whereas the single ingredient tomato slice is very low fat and has more vitamin E. That makes the tomato cake very much gooder.5 -
WinoGelato wrote: »
I didn't know this was possible. How long does it take for Oreos to get stale?
(I don't have this problem because Oreos are not something I can moderate, and they haven't been in my house for years.)0 -
happytree923 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »happytree923 wrote: »Everyone can provide their own personal stories and preferences as much as they want. It does not change the fact that on average, high fat, salt, and sugar foods are highly rewarding and make you want to eat more of them. This, combined with the convienence of processed/junk/fast/whatever food, makes it easy to overeat. If you are trying to lose weight this is a good thing to be aware of.
Again, though, the topic here is "processed" food, not "junk food."
Processed food is VERY varied and need not be the kinds of foods you are describing as high fat, salt, and sugar food (whereas, again, plenty of homecooked foods could be).
Processed foods include things like an Amy's frozen meal, instant oats with NOTHING but oats added, dried pasta, canned tomatoes, canned tuna, quick cook rice and beans, the kinds of Indian foods pictured above, smoked salmon, kimchi, pickles, boneless skinless chicken breast, pretty low cal chicken sausages, a canned soup (low sodium), and so on.
That it is preserved (the original reason for it) or intended to make things more convenient does not say anything about the ingredients involved or whether it's high or low cal, nutritious or not, so on.Honestly I’m not sure why this is so controversial? What people usually mean when they say ‘processed food’ is junk food and I thought it was pretty commonly known that it’s way easier to gain weight on junk than chicken and broccoli.
No, I would disagree that what people usually mean by "processed food" is junk food. If someone asks if I eat processed food I think about what I happen to eat and the answer is yes, I do -- I eat tofu, tempeh, soy milk, smoked salmon, peanut powder, occasional protein powder, dried pasta, canned tomatoes, cottage cheese, greek yogurt, coffee and tea, lots of imported cheeses, and sure, occasional dark chocolate and ice cream. I don't consider the latter two more processed or different than the others, even though I wouldn't consider any of the others "junk food." That's my problem with the
Ok, we disagree on what qualifies as ‘processed food.’ I think you’re being a little pedantic, the term has a colloquial meaning beyond ‘a food that has had heat applied to it before sale’ and I don’t know anyone else who uses the super broad definition you are using.
Lots of people on MFP do use that super broad definition, and it is technically correct.
However, no one I know in real life uses it. When they say "processed foods", they mean what the Brazilian government has defined as Ultra Processed Foods: http://189.28.128.100/dab/docs/portaldab/publicacoes/guia_alimentar_populacao_ingles.pdf2
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