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Why do people deny CICO ?
Replies
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nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
Beg to differ. There are mammals that fly.16 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
I did not know it was 0.0099%. Do you have a source for that figure?
I just pulled that number out of thin air. You are still talking about the rare case in which this happens. Maybe you should give me the percentage of with people with this condition and we can back from there.
Well .0099% is 1 out of 100000, or did I add an extra zero.
Either way. That's a LOT of people. It's probably actually a much smaller number
Most of whom should be under a doctor's immediate care.
Thanks for doing the math for me. I thought I picked a pretty solid number for how thin the air was. Teaches me.
It's Ok, If the chance of an accidental perfect fingerprint match is 1 in 10 Million, that means that there are 700 people in the selection pool 1 in 100 Thousand is 70 thousand candidates. It's a big number, but the odds that any given poster is one of those 70 thousand is still impossibly remote, and it's prudent to deal with all of the obvious cases first.7 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
No one who comes here to complain about the way we give advice ever seems to take us up on this request. The boards are in serious need of patient, nuanced advice givers. I try to hit 10 posts a day and I've been seriously dragging on that this year. Why complain about the advice we're all giving if you don't want to hop in and help us out? It drives me bonkers.18 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
Beg to differ. There are mammals that fly.
As a percentage of population, flying mammals and flightless birds are wildly more common than people whose caloric needs are more than 20% off from the statistical mean/mode.
Further, they're off in both directions.16 -
diannethegeek wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
No one who comes here to complain about the way we give advice ever seems to take us up on this request. The boards are in serious need of patient, nuanced advice givers. I try to hit 10 posts a day and I've been seriously dragging on that this year. Why complain about the advice we're all giving if you don't want to hop in and help us out? It drives me bonkers.
i do14 -
diannethegeek wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
No one who comes here to complain about the way we give advice ever seems to take us up on this request. The boards are in serious need of patient, nuanced advice givers. I try to hit 10 posts a day and I've been seriously dragging on that this year. Why complain about the advice we're all giving if you don't want to hop in and help us out? It drives me bonkers.
No, they would rather pick apart about the advice given. Agree, it is frustrating.12 -
nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
To the bolded, ABSOLUTELY it does. This is a free, public internet forum. If there is some extremely rare, extreme outlier possibility that something like that is going on, why on earth would you expect a bunch of volunteers an a public forum to figure that out??? If 999,999 people out of every million would be helped by the advice here, do you really want to say that advice is useless because there's a chance that one other person happens to show up in that thread?
And even if that one person is here, FIRST we have to make sure they are logging accurately and consistently. NEXT we try to help them play around with their macros and their exercise calories. If they are still not losing, FINALLY we suggest they go to a doctor and get some blood work done. Why is that enough?17 -
It's not clear we've even found an outlier. The woman who gained was self-reporting her calories. The study (by people who seem to be trying to prove a theory about pollution causing obesity) reports that her RMR was consistent with that, but if that's true it should be repeatable and we should see it in other studies. RMR tests are not foolproof and I don't think we got details about how it was done.
So like I said, do a metabolic ward experiment with obese people.
Also, the premise seems to be that it's cruel to suggest that someone struggling to lose improve their logging (or not immediately believe them when they say their logging is perfect).
Like I always say, improve logging, track really carefully at a reasonable estimated deficit, and if no results, see a doctor. There are things that can reduce TDEE (like thyroid) that are worth looking at, even if I don't believe for a second that someone can find it impossible to lose weight physically. If they have a medical issue they may not be able to do so without feeling bad or at a reasonable calorie level or, more significantly, it might not be the #1 thing to be focusing on.
The vast majority of people who ask at MFP do have logging problems, and I'm curious what advice you think they are looking for if they really think it's somehow impossible for them to lose. That's not a question for MFP, but for a doctor.
It's also not really the "why don't people believe CICO" question. The sorts of questions we get repeatedly are things like: "if I stay within my calories but go over my fat, will I still lose?" or "if I stay within my calories but have occasional ice cream or fast food, will I still lose?" Or will I lose better/more/teach myself to lose/kickstart my metabolism if I follow some special diet like [insert whatever it is here]. Yes, diet may matter for sustainability and satiety, but there's magical thinking going on that if you eat indulgent food you won't lose, and if you carefully follow some diet (often something awful like the scammy GM diet or the military diet) then you will lose better. That's what I find it interesting that people believe, and would be curious why the attraction vs. accepting it's just calories?9 -
diannethegeek wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
No one who comes here to complain about the way we give advice ever seems to take us up on this request. The boards are in serious need of patient, nuanced advice givers. I try to hit 10 posts a day and I've been seriously dragging on that this year. Why complain about the advice we're all giving if you don't want to hop in and help us out? It drives me bonkers.
i do
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
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janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
The article makes no claim for generalizability, but you'd like us to take this article into account when we're advising people who aren't losing weight?
There probably are some people for whom this is applicable (clearly, people who go on extended wilderness expeditions may be included in that group). But when you look at the average person who is complaining about not losing weight and they open their diary and you see they're not logging some days, estimating some portion sizes, using generic database entries, and haven't done much work to determine if their calorie burn estimates are accurate . . . what is the starting point that is most likely to result in helping them get to where they want to be? Recommending more accurate logging and attention to detail or assuming they have experienced metabolic changes?
I don't think it's compassionate to send people on what is likely to be a wild goose chase when there are simple and easy steps they can immediately take to begin working towards weight loss.19 -
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.20 -
There's a common case I can think of off the top of my head where hormones play a significant enough role in weight loss to mention and that's post-partum. Every time it comes up on the forums, including a post on the front page now, these regular posters who give such monolithic advice are quick to note that new mothers need to give their bodies some time to relax and heal.6
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tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.23 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
I did not know it was 0.0099%. Do you have a source for that figure?
How many people go on Antarctica expeditions? Divide that by 7 billion.11 -
tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
3 -
stanmann571 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
Shush, you're not helping 
7 -
nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.16 -
stanmann571 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
I remember taking Hydroxycut in the late 1990s when it still had ephedra, with my heart just hammering for hours, lol. It was very effective and I'm grateful that it didn't kill me 5 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
I remember taking Hydroxycut in the late 1990s when it still had ephedra, with my heart just hammering for hours, lol. It was very effective and I'm grateful that it didn't kill me
I ended up taking just a very low dose, and managed to lose 20 or 30 lbs in the month. I felt really good.... slept great, had plenty of energy for training and managed to keep the weight off.... for a while(almost 2 years)3 -
Inhaling oxygen and exhaling carbon dioxide is a nice idea. It's a good way to stay alive. It's not the only way to stay alive mind you, I mean....we're all different.
9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
I remember taking Hydroxycut in the late 1990s when it still had ephedra, with my heart just hammering for hours, lol. It was very effective and I'm grateful that it didn't kill me
I ended up taking just a very low dose, and managed to lose 20 or 30 lbs in the month. I felt really good.... slept great, had plenty of energy for training and managed to keep the weight off.... for a while(almost 2 years)
I was drinking heavily and living on a happy hour pub food diet 4-5 nights a week (chicken fingers, fries, mozzarella sticks, potato skins, loaded nachos, etc.) and Hydroxycut was a nice offset - I think I lost maybe 10-15lbs during the 3-4 months I used it.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.
Yes, but just as gravity does not prevent birds from flying, CICO may not prevent someone in a slight caloric deficit or surplus from losing or gaining weight, because other mechanisms are at work that alter the equation23 -
I hear cowbells6
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2
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nettiklive wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.
Yes, but just as gravity does not prevent birds from flying, CICO may not prevent someone in a slight caloric deficit or surplus from losing or gaining weight, because other mechanisms are at work that alter the equation
Huh? If they are in a deficit they will lose... what you mean is if it affects their TDEE to the point that the caloric intake they think should be a deficit, acutally is a slight surplus and they gain a little weight instead of losing.15 -
nettiklive wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.
Yes, but just as gravity does not prevent birds from flying, CICO may not prevent someone in a slight caloric deficit or surplus from losing or gaining weight, because other mechanisms are at work that alter the equation
Uh. Other mechanisms being at work that alters the CI or the CO side of CICO does not negate CICO. It just changes the values of the CI or the CO... So CICO is still very much at play.12 -
nettiklive wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.
Yes, but just as gravity does not prevent birds from flying, CICO may not prevent someone in a slight caloric deficit or surplus from losing or gaining weight, because other mechanisms are at work that alter the equation
Gravity is still at work in the process of flight. It doesn't stop working just because something uses the principle of lift to get off the ground. The formula used to measure the change in energy balance (CICO) is still at work no matter what method is used to lose weight. There may well be better ways of measuring that energy balance, but the process is still the same regardless.8 -
Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Bry_Fitness70 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »
You have 34 posts, and I'm pretty confident at least 10 of them are in debate threads complaining about the bad advice we give
While I get your point, I'm not sure post count has any reliable relationship with the quality of posts.
People with high post counts can provide really bad information, while those with low counts can provide good information.
Not sure what citing post count does to advance an argument. Seems more like a logical fallacy to cite post count.
A previous poster said that she wished people who complain about the advice we give, would spend some time volunteering their own wisdom in threads rather than just complaining about us. Her response, which I quoted, was "I do". I would think the number of posts she has is incredibly relevant to that assertion. If she was volunteering time offering advice to others, she would have more than 34 posts. But I get it, it's fun to just pop into a 30 page thread and criticize someone.
It's a lot easier to say "You're doing it wrong" than to try to do it yourself. I suppose this would be a better community if we all just stopped posting these CICO related responses and just let all the newbies debate whether ACV or Hydroxycut are the best way to lose weight.
Hey, OG Hyroxycut actually worked.
I remember taking Hydroxycut in the late 1990s when it still had ephedra, with my heart just hammering for hours, lol. It was very effective and I'm grateful that it didn't kill me
I ended up taking just a very low dose, and managed to lose 20 or 30 lbs in the month. I felt really good.... slept great, had plenty of energy for training and managed to keep the weight off.... for a while(almost 2 years)
I was drinking heavily and living on a happy hour pub food diet 4-5 nights a week (chicken fingers, fries, mozzarella sticks, potato skins, loaded nachos, etc.) and Hydroxycut was a nice offset - I think I lost maybe 10-15lbs during the 3-4 months I used it.
I didn't realize until the second time I did Keto, that it wasn't Keto that was responsible, but the Hydroxycut stack.
The second time I did a round of Keto, I gained 4 or 5 lbs and suffered savage keto-flu. The first time. IT was amazing.0 -
nettiklive wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Sure it has. It’s not common. It’s probably quite rare. Has it been reported? Yes. See Table 2 for Patient details. Truth is there is significant inter-individual variation in the extent of adaptive thermogenesis relative to the energy deficit.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17460875.2.6.651?needAccess=true
A study on 2 whole people, huh?
I think you might need to reread the article.
The article shares details about the case studies of three people -- two men who were on an extended expedition and a woman who was participating in a weight loss study. Table 2 is about the woman. The point: this is a very small amount of data from which to begin drawing conclusions that might apply more widely.
The article makes no claim for generalizability. In the context of a larger study it discusses a woman whose metabolic adaptation to energy restriction exceeded the energy deficit, resulting in weight gain on a lower calorie diet. I think they’re clear that they are reporting on one end of the spectrum of inter-individual variation in metabolic adaptation to an energy deficit. The majority of individuals lost weight exactly as expected. I shared the article because there is a firmly held belief in this Community that it is impossible to gain weight after cutting calories. Because of the over emphasis on the CI component of CICO, the answer to stalled weight loss is almost always “you’re eating more than you think you are”, or “eat less”. There exist some unfortunate individuals for whom that advice is both demotivating and simply wrong. So a little compassion when they post asking for help might be in order.
You are talking about the .0099% of the population, the outliers. On threads like those. chime in with your advice see if that helps them.
It doesn't matter what percentage it is. We're debating simply the physiological possibility that these outliers may in fact exist. If even one person like that exists in the world, it means that there is some mechanism by which the calorie burning/ weight loss process does not work as expected. It's not about debating the physical principle of CICO, but applying it to human weight loss through a reasonably sustainable caloric deficit, and that is what people are suggesting may not always occur as it should on paper. Just like gravity exists for everyone yet birds are able to fly while mammals cannot.
That's actually a really good example. Someone with no clue of how gravity works may think that gravity doesn't apply to birds. Just like there's people that count calories for a week, don't see the results they expect for one of the billion reasons that we tell them about every time they come to these forums, and think CICO doesn't work as it should.
Yes, but just as gravity does not prevent birds from flying, CICO may not prevent someone in a slight caloric deficit or surplus from losing or gaining weight, because other mechanisms are at work that alter the equation
Those other things are accounted for in CICO. You said it yourself - they alter the equation, but the equation still applies. The problem isn't that we don't take them into consideration, it's that you still don't understand what CICO is and how we use it to our advantage.8 -
For me, I get tired of hearing "its CICO, eat whatever you want as long as you stay under calories MFP says you will lose weight"
I am not tired of hearing it because it is necessarily wrong. I get that CICO works. But people tend to simplify CICO too much. There are a lot of things that affect the CO portion of the equation. Individual metabolism, body composition just to name a few of the many.
More importantly, there is a lot more that goes into the CI portion. Just consume less calories is not that easy for some and for those who think its easy, they just assume everyone else is just too lazy to try. There are mental blocks, terrible relationships with food, habits, brain chemistry that goes into it. While some people can just eat one slice of pizza, that would be horrible advice for others as eating just 1 piece is a lot harder. CICO does not account for ones relationship to food. There are certain foods that I just cannot eat because it is a trigger for my eating disorder and will derail all my progress. I have to recognize that. But if I were to have a thread on here about how I am going to cut out pizza, I would get a bunch of responses from people telling me they cant imagine life without pizza and as long as it fits in your calories, eat the pizza. How is that helpful for me?
Again, CICO at its basics works but it is way over simplified for the execution of people with eating disorders, emotional eating, and other bad relationships with food.
I also feel like the MFP community bashes people's diets too much. Yes low carb, paleo, Atkins, OMAD diets are all ways for you to achieve CICO so who cares what path people choose? If carbs trigger over eating for someone so they go low carb to lose weight....who cares?? You dont need to throw CICO at them saying that they dont need to do low carb. I have recently changed to an IF eating pattern. Not necessary because I wanted to follow that diet but because I recognized that I was not actually hungry in the morning so eating when I was not hungry was not a habit I wants to pick up again. On the opposite end, I was always hungry at 3pm and I had no calories left over. So now my breakfast calories can be reused for 3pm. But again, looking at threads on IF, you get the MFP veterans constantly knocking it because all you need is CICO.19
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