Keto Diet - Should I try it?
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
No, I don't mean to imply they're carb loading. I mean that they are using carbs as fuel during endurance events which was the original topic.
And yes, we are all fat adapted. Everyone uses fat for fuel once glycogen is depleted.
Yes we all use fat for fuel during the time we are exercising but the second sentence is incorrect.
It's not sequential glycogen and then fat - it's a blend of both fuels in a changing ratio dependant on intensity.
(It's the basis of the horrible twisting of science that is the mythical fat burning zone!)
While keto enthusiasts like to point at the higher fat oxidation rates that some may achieve they strangely like to overlook that it is counterbalanced by also becoming carb impaired and with typically lower or stagnated performance.
Thanks for clarifying that for me!
So, to further understand, people who eat carbs and have fat in their diet burn both glycogen and circulating fat in various mixtures depending on exercise intensity while people who eat lower carbohydrates will burn more fat and less glycogen (since it's not there to burn) and their performance will suffer as a result?
ETA: Just an n=1 here, I'm not major athlete, but I've gone through periods of fluctuating activity and calorie levels due to my arthritis. When I have to cut calories, I usually cut carbs since my protein and fat are constants that I like to meet. When I've tried lower carb and increased activity? Ugh. It doesn't work. I feel light headed and can't finish a lifting session, I conk out during a long walk, and when I was running, I couldn't run as fast.
So I don't get the idea how more carbs aren't better for performance, because for me, they definitely are. I like to live a very active life. I can't do that and keep my carbs low.3 -
Yes. Keto worked amazingly for me4
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@GottaBurnEmAllGottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
No, I don't mean to imply they're carb loading. I mean that they are using carbs as fuel during endurance events which was the original topic.
And yes, we are all fat adapted. Everyone uses fat for fuel once glycogen is depleted.
Yes we all use fat for fuel during the time we are exercising but the second sentence is incorrect.
It's not sequential glycogen and then fat - it's a blend of both fuels in a changing ratio dependant on intensity.
(It's the basis of the horrible twisting of science that is the mythical fat burning zone!)
While keto enthusiasts like to point at the higher fat oxidation rates that some may achieve they strangely like to overlook that it is counterbalanced by also becoming carb impaired and with typically lower or stagnated performance.
Thanks for clarifying that for me!
So, to further understand, people who eat carbs and have fat in their diet burn both glycogen and circulating fat in various mixtures depending on exercise intensity while people who eat lower carbohydrates will burn more fat and less glycogen (since it's not there to burn) and their performance will suffer as a result?
ETA: Just an n=1 here, I'm not major athlete, but I've gone through periods of fluctuating activity and calorie levels due to my arthritis. When I have to cut calories, I usually cut carbs since my protein and fat are constants that I like to meet. When I've tried lower carb and increased activity? Ugh. It doesn't work. I feel light headed and can't finish a lifting session, I conk out during a long walk, and when I was running, I couldn't run as fast.
So I don't get the idea how more carbs aren't better for performance, because for me, they definitely are. I like to live a very active life. I can't do that and keep my carbs low.
Sorry for the delay - I've been out cycling somewhat appropriately.....
People can adapt to become better at fat oxidation, the period seems to differ from one week (when respiratory exchange ratio is tested in a sports lab) to one week longer than any study where keto supporters don't like the results that show performance has tanked.
OK that's a bit cynical and harsh.
So for me my all day cycling pace is being fuelled in roughly 50/50 ratio of carbs/fat. Perhaps if I went over the "the dark side" it might shift to 40/60 carbs/fat at the same pace. But then I would lose some ability to utilise carbs as efficiently.
But low carb isn't the only way for an individual to become better fat adapted (it's a continuum not an on/off switch as some seem to like to infer). Fasted exercise, long slow LISS, occasional low carb training sessions (*).
Carbs are better for performance, it's your instant use rocket fuel as compared to slow use bunker fuel. It's why high performance athletes eat them so much. Even endurance events tend to require burst of higher intensity. Personally on the day of my longest events I eat about 650g of carbs.
* = as an aside the occasional low carb training session is what Chris Froome was doing when it was misreported that he is a low carb athlete. Doing an odd morning training session low carb then immediately carbing up again to do a normally fuelled afternoon ride. That's the cutting edge of sports nutrition - using all fuels efficiently, not massively restricting the best fuel.5 -
@GottaBurnEmAllGottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
No, I don't mean to imply they're carb loading. I mean that they are using carbs as fuel during endurance events which was the original topic.
And yes, we are all fat adapted. Everyone uses fat for fuel once glycogen is depleted.
Yes we all use fat for fuel during the time we are exercising but the second sentence is incorrect.
It's not sequential glycogen and then fat - it's a blend of both fuels in a changing ratio dependant on intensity.
(It's the basis of the horrible twisting of science that is the mythical fat burning zone!)
While keto enthusiasts like to point at the higher fat oxidation rates that some may achieve they strangely like to overlook that it is counterbalanced by also becoming carb impaired and with typically lower or stagnated performance.
Thanks for clarifying that for me!
So, to further understand, people who eat carbs and have fat in their diet burn both glycogen and circulating fat in various mixtures depending on exercise intensity while people who eat lower carbohydrates will burn more fat and less glycogen (since it's not there to burn) and their performance will suffer as a result?
ETA: Just an n=1 here, I'm not major athlete, but I've gone through periods of fluctuating activity and calorie levels due to my arthritis. When I have to cut calories, I usually cut carbs since my protein and fat are constants that I like to meet. When I've tried lower carb and increased activity? Ugh. It doesn't work. I feel light headed and can't finish a lifting session, I conk out during a long walk, and when I was running, I couldn't run as fast.
So I don't get the idea how more carbs aren't better for performance, because for me, they definitely are. I like to live a very active life. I can't do that and keep my carbs low.
Sorry for the delay - I've been out cycling somewhat appropriately.....
People can adapt to become better at fat oxidation, the period seems to differ from one week (when respiratory exchange ratio is tested in a sports lab) to one week longer than any study where keto supporters don't like the results that show performance has tanked.
OK that's a bit cynical and harsh.
So for me my all day cycling pace is being fuelled in roughly 50/50 ratio of carbs/fat. Perhaps if I went over the "the dark side" it might shift to 40/60 carbs/fat at the same pace. But then I would lose some ability to utilise carbs as efficiently.
But low carb isn't the only way for an individual to become better fat adapted (it's a continuum not an on/off switch as some seem to like to infer). Fasted exercise, long slow LISS, occasional low carb training sessions (*).
Carbs are better for performance, it's your instant use rocket fuel as compared to slow use bunker fuel. It's why high performance athletes eat them so much. Even endurance events tend to require burst of higher intensity. Personally on the day of my longest events I eat about 650g of carbs.
* = as an aside the occasional low carb training session is what Chris Froome was doing when it was misreported that he is a low carb athlete. Doing an odd morning training session low carb then immediately carbing up again to do a normally fuelled afternoon ride. That's the cutting edge of sports nutrition - using all fuels efficiently, not massively restricting the best fuel.
Thanks for this. You explain things in such a way that it's really easy for me to grasp them. BTW, I now know I am better fat adapted. I do fasted exercise and long slow LISS allllllll the time. In fact, a good majority of my activity is fasted, I'd say about 2/3. I only eat right before more intense exercise like lifting.2 -
@GottaBurnEmAllGottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
No, I don't mean to imply they're carb loading. I mean that they are using carbs as fuel during endurance events which was the original topic.
And yes, we are all fat adapted. Everyone uses fat for fuel once glycogen is depleted.
Yes we all use fat for fuel during the time we are exercising but the second sentence is incorrect.
It's not sequential glycogen and then fat - it's a blend of both fuels in a changing ratio dependant on intensity.
(It's the basis of the horrible twisting of science that is the mythical fat burning zone!)
While keto enthusiasts like to point at the higher fat oxidation rates that some may achieve they strangely like to overlook that it is counterbalanced by also becoming carb impaired and with typically lower or stagnated performance.
Thanks for clarifying that for me!
So, to further understand, people who eat carbs and have fat in their diet burn both glycogen and circulating fat in various mixtures depending on exercise intensity while people who eat lower carbohydrates will burn more fat and less glycogen (since it's not there to burn) and their performance will suffer as a result?
ETA: Just an n=1 here, I'm not major athlete, but I've gone through periods of fluctuating activity and calorie levels due to my arthritis. When I have to cut calories, I usually cut carbs since my protein and fat are constants that I like to meet. When I've tried lower carb and increased activity? Ugh. It doesn't work. I feel light headed and can't finish a lifting session, I conk out during a long walk, and when I was running, I couldn't run as fast.
So I don't get the idea how more carbs aren't better for performance, because for me, they definitely are. I like to live a very active life. I can't do that and keep my carbs low.
Sorry for the delay - I've been out cycling somewhat appropriately.....
People can adapt to become better at fat oxidation, the period seems to differ from one week (when respiratory exchange ratio is tested in a sports lab) to one week longer than any study where keto supporters don't like the results that show performance has tanked.
OK that's a bit cynical and harsh.
So for me my all day cycling pace is being fuelled in roughly 50/50 ratio of carbs/fat. Perhaps if I went over the "the dark side" it might shift to 40/60 carbs/fat at the same pace. But then I would lose some ability to utilise carbs as efficiently.
But low carb isn't the only way for an individual to become better fat adapted (it's a continuum not an on/off switch as some seem to like to infer). Fasted exercise, long slow LISS, occasional low carb training sessions (*).
Carbs are better for performance, it's your instant use rocket fuel as compared to slow use bunker fuel. It's why high performance athletes eat them so much. Even endurance events tend to require burst of higher intensity. Personally on the day of my longest events I eat about 650g of carbs.
* = as an aside the occasional low carb training session is what Chris Froome was doing when it was misreported that he is a low carb athlete. Doing an odd morning training session low carb then immediately carbing up again to do a normally fuelled afternoon ride. That's the cutting edge of sports nutrition - using all fuels efficiently, not massively restricting the best fuel.
Pure gold right there^^! Just as an additional clarification. Fat is the primary fuel substrate at rest and low intensity activity. @GottaBurnEmAll you have always been a proponent of N.E.A.T. and rightly so for various reasons. Not the least of which is fat is the most utilized fuel substrate during most N.E.A.T. activities. Fat is the fuel burned when we sleep! As sijomial accurately points out, the ratio of fat to glycogen changes in favor of increased glycogen as intensity ramps up and back to fat as it ramps down. So, we are all "fat adapted" as part of our physiology.5 -
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
No, I don't mean to imply they're carb loading. I mean that they are using carbs as fuel during endurance events which was the original topic.
And yes, we are all fat adapted. Everyone uses fat for fuel once glycogen is depleted.
That's not fat adapted. Keto'ers who are fat adapted have the same glycogen stores as anyone else, they just use fat for fuel instead of going straight to that stored glycogen.
But sure, keto'er will eat carbs around exercise if they perceive a benefit. Some but not all. Sort of like moderate to high carb athletes may use carbs during exercise - some but not all ... I'm not sure why this is significant though.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
There is a significant difference between carbs and coffee. With caffeine, it can provide some minor benefit to exercise intensity, but that is assuming you are not a habitual user. Carbs habitually improve explosive performance and improve sport across the board. You don't build up tolerances, and if your glycogen is depleted, you suffer. So is it a sports enhancing drug, sure... it's been proven to be more effective for sports. It's why athletes eat, time or load carbs prior to events. Statistically, carbs are better than fat in sport.
So is some caffeine.
But I just want to mention that low carb athletes who are fat adapted are not depleted of glycogen. It's the same as any other athlete. Low carbers are not suffering from chronic glycogen depletion.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
There is a significant difference between carbs and coffee. With caffeine, it can provide some minor benefit to exercise intensity, but that is assuming you are not a habitual user. Carbs habitually improve explosive performance and improve sport across the board. You don't build up tolerances, and if your glycogen is depleted, you suffer. So is it a sports enhancing drug, sure... it's been proven to be more effective for sports. It's why athletes eat, time or load carbs prior to events. Statistically, carbs are better than fat in sport.
So is some caffeine.
But I just want to mention that low carb athletes who are fat adapted are not depleted of glycogen. It's the same as any other athlete. Low carbers are not suffering from chronic glycogen depletion.
Not exactly true. Their muscle glycogen is not depleted but maintain significantly less glycogen in the liver. Its why explosive exercise is harder on keto and why performance quite frequently suffers. A high carber who exercises can store as much as 500 - 700g.
I have been hitting PRs all week because i have been binging a bit on jelly beans. Heck, i struggled with a 195x5x3 bench for 3 or 4 weeks.. this week, 205x5x3 with not even a hint of slowing down.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
There is a significant difference between carbs and coffee. With caffeine, it can provide some minor benefit to exercise intensity, but that is assuming you are not a habitual user. Carbs habitually improve explosive performance and improve sport across the board. You don't build up tolerances, and if your glycogen is depleted, you suffer. So is it a sports enhancing drug, sure... it's been proven to be more effective for sports. It's why athletes eat, time or load carbs prior to events. Statistically, carbs are better than fat in sport.
So is some caffeine.
But I just want to mention that low carb athletes who are fat adapted are not depleted of glycogen. It's the same as any other athlete. Low carbers are not suffering from chronic glycogen depletion.
Not exactly true. Their muscle glycogen is not depleted but maintain significantly less glycogen in the liver. Its why explosive exercise is harder on keto and why performance quite frequently suffers. A high carber who exercises can store as much as 500 - 700g.
I have been hitting PRs all week because i have been binging a bit on jelly beans. Heck, i struggled with a 195x5x3 bench for 3 or 4 weeks.. this week, 205x5x3 with not even a hint of slowing down.
I've not read the bolded. Do you have a source you could point me to? I'm curious.
I know muscle glycogen is the same between low carb and higher carb athletes, and has the same recovery after exercise, but I know little about what a fat adapted/ long term keto athlete's liver glycogen stores are like.
The need for muscle glycogen in some activities I do understand - explosive, short term energy. Glucose from the liver would be more for overall fuel (in a carb burner)? I suppose it could make less sense that fat burners would need less of that glucose for fuel.
I'd love to see your source. Research on fat adapted/long term keto'ers is still fairly sparse.
2 -
For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).3 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Yes, but you're talking about a medical condition. Of course you will and should do what you need to do to alleviate that.
We're talking about people who are trying out Keto in an effort to lose weight. Choosing a way of eating you find difficult in order to lose weight is a recipe for disaster in maintenance. That's all anyone is saying.5 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.5 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.
LOL This. I always wonder where people get the idea that keto is less sustainable than other diets!
I do think that those of us who stick with keto often do so for a health benefit, or the appetite suppressing effect the many experience. Keto helps with a lot of health issues but it cures none - once you stop using the diet the benefits of low carb usually go away. And so we stick with it even if it does restrict some foods.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
There is a significant difference between carbs and coffee. With caffeine, it can provide some minor benefit to exercise intensity, but that is assuming you are not a habitual user. Carbs habitually improve explosive performance and improve sport across the board. You don't build up tolerances, and if your glycogen is depleted, you suffer. So is it a sports enhancing drug, sure... it's been proven to be more effective for sports. It's why athletes eat, time or load carbs prior to events. Statistically, carbs are better than fat in sport.
So is some caffeine.
But I just want to mention that low carb athletes who are fat adapted are not depleted of glycogen. It's the same as any other athlete. Low carbers are not suffering from chronic glycogen depletion.
Not exactly true. Their muscle glycogen is not depleted but maintain significantly less glycogen in the liver. Its why explosive exercise is harder on keto and why performance quite frequently suffers. A high carber who exercises can store as much as 500 - 700g.
I have been hitting PRs all week because i have been binging a bit on jelly beans. Heck, i struggled with a 195x5x3 bench for 3 or 4 weeks.. this week, 205x5x3 with not even a hint of slowing down.
I've not read the bolded. Do you have a source you could point me to? I'm curious.
I know muscle glycogen is the same between low carb and higher carb athletes, and has the same recovery after exercise, but I know little about what a fat adapted/ long term keto athlete's liver glycogen stores are like.
The need for muscle glycogen in some activities I do understand - explosive, short term energy. Glucose from the liver would be more for overall fuel (in a carb burner)? I suppose it could make less sense that fat burners would need less of that glucose for fuel.
I'd love to see your source. Research on fat adapted/long term keto'ers is still fairly sparse.
Its been awhile since i read on it, but ill look. Glycogen resynthesis rates for lc vs hc are similar once adapted after 2 or 3 months. IIRC is 36% vs 45% of something like that. The questions that still have to be answered are more closely related multiple anaerobic events and fatigue over time.
But outside of Volkey, these arent overly being explored. What little evidence there is suggest the lc may be effective for ultra marathons but doesnt evaluate repeated events.
From a practical standpoint, athletes will benefit from periods of lc to increase fat oxidation rates but pre events, carb loading is best.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
Yeah, I'd like to see a source that claims that someone is ketogenic (using ketones for fuel) while "burning" carbohydrates (using carbs for fuel).
ETA: Furthermore, the claim is that "fat-adapted" athletes supposedly are using fat for fuel, and the proof was given that they fuel with carbs. All athletes are fat adapted, but ultimately, performance is enhanced by carbs, and even "fat-adapted" athletes know this, which is why they all take in carbs for events. There's not a single endurance athlete who doesn't use carbs for fuel, even if some use less than others.
I disagree with the bolded. Not all athletes are fat adapted. Athletes may have their body better trained to use fats than the average higher carb person, but their fuel use is quite different than a fat adapted athlete (someone who has done keto for some months).
And I am sure that there are athletes who don't use carbs. I see posts by low carbers all the time on this. Or do you mean top athletes only?
But if they do choose to eat their carbs around exercise, so what? CKD and TKD both still have keto in the name. A ketogenic diet involves some carbs. If they choose to eat carbs around exercise, they are still ketogenic.
Peter Attia called carbs a performance enhancing drug. I think he compared it to coffee... carbs can help, but more is not always better... like coffe.
Or do you mean to imply that those athletes are carb loading the same as a higher carb athlete? Endurance athletes avoid ketosis while exercising?
There is a significant difference between carbs and coffee. With caffeine, it can provide some minor benefit to exercise intensity, but that is assuming you are not a habitual user. Carbs habitually improve explosive performance and improve sport across the board. You don't build up tolerances, and if your glycogen is depleted, you suffer. So is it a sports enhancing drug, sure... it's been proven to be more effective for sports. It's why athletes eat, time or load carbs prior to events. Statistically, carbs are better than fat in sport.
So is some caffeine.
But I just want to mention that low carb athletes who are fat adapted are not depleted of glycogen. It's the same as any other athlete. Low carbers are not suffering from chronic glycogen depletion.
Not exactly true. Their muscle glycogen is not depleted but maintain significantly less glycogen in the liver. Its why explosive exercise is harder on keto and why performance quite frequently suffers. A high carber who exercises can store as much as 500 - 700g.
I have been hitting PRs all week because i have been binging a bit on jelly beans. Heck, i struggled with a 195x5x3 bench for 3 or 4 weeks.. this week, 205x5x3 with not even a hint of slowing down.
I've not read the bolded. Do you have a source you could point me to? I'm curious.
I know muscle glycogen is the same between low carb and higher carb athletes, and has the same recovery after exercise, but I know little about what a fat adapted/ long term keto athlete's liver glycogen stores are like.
The need for muscle glycogen in some activities I do understand - explosive, short term energy. Glucose from the liver would be more for overall fuel (in a carb burner)? I suppose it could make less sense that fat burners would need less of that glucose for fuel.
I'd love to see your source. Research on fat adapted/long term keto'ers is still fairly sparse.
Its been awhile since i read on it, but ill look. Glycogen resynthesis rates for lc vs hc are similar once adapted after 2 or 3 months. IIRC is 36% vs 45% of something like that. The questions that still have to be answered are more closely related multiple anaerobic events and fatigue over time.
But outside of Volkey, these arent overly being explored. What little evidence there is suggest the lc may be effective for ultra marathons but doesnt evaluate repeated events.
From a practical standpoint, athletes will benefit from periods of lc to increase fat oxidation rates but pre events, carb loading is best.
This is kind of what I thought. Thanks.
But I bet the keto'er's carb loading is a bit different in magnitude than a higher carb athelete's. 0 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.
LOL This. I always wonder where people get the idea that keto is less sustainable than other diets!
I do think that those of us who stick with keto often do so for a health benefit, or the appetite suppressing effect the many experience. Keto helps with a lot of health issues but it cures none - once you stop using the diet the benefits of low carb usually go away. And so we stick with it even if it does restrict some foods.
What's more interesting, almost all of the touted benefits from keto are the same ones touted for almost all diets. So largely, i believe its the weight loss and greater focus on high quality foods. If you do keto dirty, you probably wont see the same benefits.
There is also largely a personal belief that you will experience these things. And the power of thr placebo is extremely real.3 -
I tried going Keto to alleviate an autoimmune issue, and coming from a pro "dieter" let me tell you, IT IS HARD. And if you arent 100% with it, it can be a very easy way to gain weight. That's what happened with me. You are eating high amounts of fat on Keto, which can easily take you over your daily calories for someone small like us, then as soon as you fall off the wagon for a moment by eating carbs (mixed with high fat and calories), BOOM you're gaining weight.0
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KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.
LOL This. I always wonder where people get the idea that keto is less sustainable than other diets!
I do think that those of us who stick with keto often do so for a health benefit, or the appetite suppressing effect the many experience. Keto helps with a lot of health issues but it cures none - once you stop using the diet the benefits of low carb usually go away. And so we stick with it even if it does restrict some foods.
What's more interesting, almost all of the touted benefits from keto are the same ones touted for almost all diets. So largely, i believe its the weight loss and greater focus on high quality foods. If you do keto dirty, you probably wont see the same benefits.
There is also largely a personal belief that you will experience these things. And the power of thr placebo is extremely real.
Some, yes. Absolutely. Others like rapid lipid and BG improvements within days is not attributed to weight loss.
You are probably right that a dirty keto diet would have fewer benefits than a clean one. I did do a weekend bacon challenge once, and my BG stayed fine. I only learned that there is such a thing as too much bacon. 
0 -
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.
And how are these thoughts and observations verified. This is a discussion we've had in the past. If it is a bunch of n=1 based on self reporting, it is not reliable. You choose to make decisions based on that kind of thing. I do not.
And just for clarity, I am biased in favor of whatever helps someone achieve their goals most sustainable and effective manner. For some folks that is keto. For others it's not. There are lots of factors, including preference and compliance that go into each individuals decision. However, the science is clear that keto is suboptimal for exercise of any degree of higher intensity and has no metabolic advantage for fat loss. Keto appears to have some advantage for hunger signalling and control for those who struggle with that.
Someone may choose to do keto anyway for their own reasons but that doesn't change the science. And it doesn't mean a keto diet person eats carbs, exercises and stays in ketosis just because they say they do.
So, my bias is not anti keto. It's anti single solution and the promulgation of less than factual info to support contentions. You've been asked multiple times to post any significant study data that supports your position on keto and exercise and all you give is feels and someone said so. This despite the fact that there are over 2200 studies on ketogenic diet on PubMed. For me, your subjective assertions hold not weight. It reminds me of the old saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a naiil.5 -
I always encourage people to eat in a way they can stick with the rest of their lives. If after researching keto you think you can stick to some variance of it forever, then go for it. If not, then it would just be a bandaid rather than a resolution. No diet or way of eating is magical except the one that makes you feel good, that you enjoy doing, and you can stick with forever.5
-
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.
And how are these thoughts and observations verified. This is a discussion we've had in the past. If it is a bunch of n=1 based on self reporting, it is not reliable. You choose to make decisions based on that kind of thing. I do not.
And just for clarity, I am biased in favor of whatever helps someone achieve their goals most sustainable and effective manner. For some folks that is keto. For others it's not. There are lots of factors, including preference and compliance that go into each individuals decision. However, the science is clear that keto is suboptimal for exercise of any degree of higher intensity and has no metabolic advantage for fat loss. Keto appears to have some advantage for hunger signalling and control for those who struggle with that.
Someone may choose to do keto anyway for their own reasons but that doesn't change the science. And it doesn't mean a keto diet person eats carbs, exercises and stays in ketosis just because they say they do.
So, my bias is not anti keto. It's anti single solution and the promulgation of less than factual info to support contentions. You've been asked multiple times to post any significant study data that supports your position on keto and exercise and all you give is feels and someone said so. This despite the fact that there are over 2200 studies on ketogenic diet on PubMed. For me, your subjective assertions hold not weight. It reminds me of the old saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a naiil.
In all fairness, i think the current limited evidence suggest that low carb is suboptimal for anaerobic/high intensity sports. But there still needs to be more research. Not saying i would ever go low carb because i have tried and it was brutal.1 -
kendramnolan wrote: »HI, I'm 5'1" just looking to lose 18lbs. I just started counting my calories and am toying with the idea of keto. I would be in dire need of support and recipes as pasta and potatoes are staples in my house. I'm curious about how quickly the weight comes off and how healthy that would be. If anyone has any info or just wants to chat and motivate eachother let me know!
Since you don't have a lot to lose, I think you may find Keto a good option. I am the same height as you, have lost 19 lbs on keto and have another 10-15 to go. For me, I could not do the high fat version of keto and I have my own opinions about that. But, I have had had good success with a low carb, low to moderate fat version which focuses on nutrition rather than just consuming tons of fat. I also focus on protein so as to not lose muscle mass. If you are on Facebook, I strongly recommend the "Ketogenic Dieters" FB page because they have a pinned post that is full of awesome information based on science and nutrition.0 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.
LOL This. I always wonder where people get the idea that keto is less sustainable than other diets!
I do think that those of us who stick with keto often do so for a health benefit, or the appetite suppressing effect the many experience. Keto helps with a lot of health issues but it cures none - once you stop using the diet the benefits of low carb usually go away. And so we stick with it even if it does restrict some foods.
What's more interesting, almost all of the touted benefits from keto are the same ones touted for almost all diets. So largely, i believe its the weight loss and greater focus on high quality foods. If you do keto dirty, you probably wont see the same benefits.
There is also largely a personal belief that you will experience these things. And the power of thr placebo is extremely real.
I lost most weight during high carb vegan. Actually was bordering underweight at 115 and 5'6. It did nothing for my seizures though. In fact, they were at their highest. Keto is kinda opposite for me. Over the past couple years, I've slowly gained a fraction of the weight I lost (am a healthy/regular weight now) but am doing much better, medical wise.0 -
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.
And how are these thoughts and observations verified. This is a discussion we've had in the past. If it is a bunch of n=1 based on self reporting, it is not reliable. You choose to make decisions based on that kind of thing. I do not.
And just for clarity, I am biased in favor of whatever helps someone achieve their goals most sustainable and effective manner. For some folks that is keto. For others it's not. There are lots of factors, including preference and compliance that go into each individuals decision. However, the science is clear that keto is suboptimal for exercise of any degree of higher intensity and has no metabolic advantage for fat loss. Keto appears to have some advantage for hunger signalling and control for those who struggle with that.
Someone may choose to do keto anyway for their own reasons but that doesn't change the science. And it doesn't mean a keto diet person eats carbs, exercises and stays in ketosis just because they say they do.
So, my bias is not anti keto. It's anti single solution and the promulgation of less than factual info to support contentions. You've been asked multiple times to post any significant study data that supports your position on keto and exercise and all you give is feels and someone said so. This despite the fact that there are over 2200 studies on ketogenic diet on PubMed. For me, your subjective assertions hold not weight. It reminds me of the old saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a naiil.
In all fairness, i think the current limited evidence suggest that low carb is suboptimal for anaerobic/high intensity sports. But there still needs to be more research. Not saying i would ever go low carb because i have tried and it was brutal.
Yes, you are right of course if based on the Aragon/ Schoenfeld meta-analysis. Interestingly, I don't have workout issues when low carb, I haven't done keto except for a brief stretch some years ago. But I do have more recovery issues and fatigue afterwards when low carb. I am not a high carb eater in general though. Average day is generally between 100g and 150g.0 -
kendramnolan wrote: »firecat1987 wrote: »no
Would you mind telling my why? I'm genuinely looking for information and would like to hear the reasons from both sides. Thanks!
The point of dieting is to put you in a deficit. You can do this with just eating less of what your normal diet already consists of. There is no point in going through the hoops of keto and risk the keto flu among other issues (electrolyte imbalances).
Just eat less than what you burn and that's it. That's an explanation without rocket science.4 -
KrazyKrissyy wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »For anyone who says Keto is not sustainable. Well, that's your problem. Yes, I agree that keto can be difficult. But you need to ask yourself if the pros will outweigh the cons. If not, just stick to your own way of eating.
I have epilepsy and ever since keto, my seizures have reduced dramatically. I don't care how difficult keto could get. It's not worth the risk to go back to try previous eating habits (which some were rather nutrient dense by the way, such as my former high carb vegan diet). I've almost died from grandmals in the past (and that was even on medication).
Outside of medical necessity, failure rates for keto is no different than other diets. So statistically speaking, we are all screwed, lol.
LOL This. I always wonder where people get the idea that keto is less sustainable than other diets!
I do think that those of us who stick with keto often do so for a health benefit, or the appetite suppressing effect the many experience. Keto helps with a lot of health issues but it cures none - once you stop using the diet the benefits of low carb usually go away. And so we stick with it even if it does restrict some foods.
What's more interesting, almost all of the touted benefits from keto are the same ones touted for almost all diets. So largely, i believe its the weight loss and greater focus on high quality foods. If you do keto dirty, you probably wont see the same benefits.
There is also largely a personal belief that you will experience these things. And the power of thr placebo is extremely real.
I lost most weight during high carb vegan. Actually was bordering underweight at 115 and 5'6. It did nothing for my seizures though. In fact, they were at their highest. Keto is kinda opposite for me. Over the past couple years, I've slowly gained a fraction of the weight I lost (am a healthy/regular weight now) but am doing much better, medical wise.
Yes, i fully understand that. There is a very well known link between keto and siezure reduction. That doesn't change the statistic though. Its no different than those who have hpyercholesterolemia, an allergy or etc.. those are medical necessities and compliance is a must or their could be consequences.2 -
I understand that a lot of the initial weight loss is simply water weight. I dont think it is healthy to cut out fruit the way keto diets do. There are so many beneficial vitamins in fruit that make it worth eating to me. If you are a fat and meat lover and can give up carbs long term then it might work for you but if go back to carbs the weight will just come back.0
-
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.
And how are these thoughts and observations verified. This is a discussion we've had in the past. If it is a bunch of n=1 based on self reporting, it is not reliable. You choose to make decisions based on that kind of thing. I do not.
And just for clarity, I am biased in favor of whatever helps someone achieve their goals most sustainable and effective manner. For some folks that is keto. For others it's not. There are lots of factors, including preference and compliance that go into each individuals decision. However, the science is clear that keto is suboptimal for exercise of any degree of higher intensity and has no metabolic advantage for fat loss. Keto appears to have some advantage for hunger signalling and control for those who struggle with that.
Someone may choose to do keto anyway for their own reasons but that doesn't change the science. And it doesn't mean a keto diet person eats carbs, exercises and stays in ketosis just because they say they do.
So, my bias is not anti keto. It's anti single solution and the promulgation of less than factual info to support contentions. You've been asked multiple times to post any significant study data that supports your position on keto and exercise and all you give is feels and someone said so. This despite the fact that there are over 2200 studies on ketogenic diet on PubMed. For me, your subjective assertions hold not weight. It reminds me of the old saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a naiil.
My thoughts and observations are not verifiable. No one's are. But the topic was keto athletes, all low carb keto athletes. I said that they don't all carb load. Someone said they do. Neither has evidence... although I think mine is easier to prove since I have never carb loaded. Ever. The only time I ever "carb loaded", if you can call it that, was when I would take about 10 or so jelly beans with me on my runs once they went over 2-3 hours. But I can't prove that either.
Sure, carbs can help fuel high intensity exercise a bit better. Not eating any carbs around that sort of exercise may affect the elite athlete's performance. It may affect the average Joe's performance too, but I doubt it will be noticeable. If it is, then low carb athletes should eat their carbs around exercise. Problem solved.
You've mentioned 2200 studies on pubmed a few times. You know there is not much out there on fat adapted/long term ketogenic athletes. There's just not. It doesn't matter how many times the word ketogenic shows up in pubmed.
I typed in "ketogenic" and had 2286 results. i added NOT "epilepsy" and had 1580 results. Then I added NOT animals and got 922 hits. Finally I added athlete before ketogenic and had 23 hits. I looked at some, and most were not relevant, and of that a few were even laughable. This one was amusing.
Competition Nutrition Practices of Elite Ultramarathon Runners.
Stellingwerff T1.
Author information
Abstract
Anecdotal claims have suggested that an increasing number of ultramarathoners purposely undertake chronic low-carbohydrate (CHO) ketogenic diets while training, and race with very low CHO intakes, as a way to maximize fat oxidation and improve performance. However, very little empirical evidence exists on specific fueling strategies that elite ultramarathoners undertake to maximize race performance. The study's purpose was to characterize race nutrition habits of elite ultramarathon runners. Three veteran male ultrarunners (M ± SD; age 35 ± 2 years; mass 59.5 ± 1.7 kg; 16.7 ± 2.5 hr 100-mi. best times) agreed to complete a competition- specific nutrition intake questionnaire for 100-mi. races. Verbal and visual instructions were used to instruct the athletes on portion sizes and confirm dietary intake. Throughout 2014, the athletes competed in 16 ultramarathons with a total of 8 wins, including the prestigious Western States Endurance Run 100-miler (14.9 hr). The average prerace breakfast contained 70 ± 16 g CHO, 29 ± 20 g protein, and 21 ± 8 g fat. Athletes consumed an average of 1,162 ± 250 g of CHO (71 ± 20g/hr), with minor fat and protein intakes, resulting in caloric intakes totaling 5,530 ± 1,673 kcals (333 ± 105 kcals/hr) with 93% of calories coming from commercial products. Athletes also reported consuming 912 ± 322 mg of caffeine and 6.9 ± 2.4 g of sodium. Despite having limited professional nutritional input into their fueling approaches, all athletes practiced fueling strategies that maximize CHO intake and are congruent with contemporary evidence-based recommendations.
... They asked three elite ultra marathoners what they ate for races in order to see if there is an increasing number of ultra marathoners who train ketogenic. Three. Awesome.
I looked at some of the 23 results and most were very neutral. No better and no worse performance on a ketogenic diet. Some showed a benefit and some did not (these were often the shorter term studies). Very few went up to, or past, 3 weeks. One discussed how it appears fat adaptation can take 2-3+ months... which would make it more difficult to study.
In the past, I made the point to you that there is very little research on ketogenic diets and performance. I stand by that. Maybe in 10 more years there will be more. Being a popular/fad diet will hopefully lead to more research being done.
For fun, I did the same pubmed search as before but took out the word ketogeinic and added nutrition. For "((athlete nutrition) NOT epilepsy) NOT animals" I had over a hundred times more results. If I took out nutrition and added vegetarian, I had over 50 results.
I don't think I have that a ketogenic diet is for everyone, nor do I think I said it fixes everything for everyone. I don't believe I said it holds a metabolic advantage for weightloss either, although there does appear to be a slight advantage for those with IR when compared to a higher carb diet. For those without IR, there is no advantage. I think that was from here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17341711
I tend not to post studies for a few reasons: 1. There are so few long term human studies. 2. The ones I do post seem to always have something wrong with them so they must be discounted. 3. I don't bookmark studies for proving things around here. There are a few I remember the specifics on but usually I read it, get the gist and move on. Researching something to prove myself right to some stranger on the internet is often a waste of time. (Although sometimes it leads to a fun rabbit hole)
3 -
"nvmomketo wrote:I am guessing that there are some keto top athletes out there, but I have no idea who they could be since I don't watch sports.
For someone guessing and with no interest in sport you sure do promote your ideas about sport with remarkable frequency and enthusiasm!
I never said that I have no interest in sports (well in some sports I have little interest but that's normal).
I said that "I don't watch sports". I participate.
Not sure from top of my head, but there are athletes who have competed while on ketogenic state, and I am talking ultra marathon runners as well, not just a 1 hour cross-fit session, which can be hard as hell on its won. One major issue with competing on ketogenic state is dehydration, as carbs retain water, and if there no carbs to retain water, dehydration is a possibility. Also, Ben Greenfield has tested this and Dr.Pompa him self tried it in real life scenario while going on a 3 hour bike ride (not casual) and did great, while the others were consuming simple sugars. So, there are fat adopted athletes who do not need coke or various gels to power through an event. However, one must understand, not all of us are physiologically gifted as these athletes, and do not exercise 4, 5 hours a day 5 days per week for 10 years. So, I am not saying I can run a marathon on keto diet, but I am sure I could train my body to do so, without losing time or bonking mid race.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »It should be noted that all the endurance athletes who are supposedly keto carb up for and during events.
Quite a few keto athletes will consume their carbs while exercising. Many think that eating carbs while exercising is not a ketogenic diet, but those athletes are often ketogenic at all times because they have burned off their carbs. Eating carbs does not mean one is not ketogenic. KWIM? All keto'ers eat carbs. Some choose to eat them around exercise so it is burned off more quickly, but they are still ketogenic athletes.
Are you saying top endurance athletes compete keto? That is what you seem to be implying. If so, please post the proof sources for your assertions.
I'm saying that someone who is ketogenic may eat carbs while exercising and still be ketogenic. I can't see why they wouldn't be just because they timed their carbs
Or they may not be. You really have no way of knowing. You are just speculation in a way that suits your bias.
Well no. As I had written earlier, my thoughts are based upon what other low carbers write about their experiences. They are my observations.
I doubt you spend much time reading low carb experiences or books. Being on the main forum here, it is often all about CICO without restricting any one thing too much. That is going to be biased towards people's experiences which are not low carb, or for whom low carb did not work out well for them. I could say that you are also speculating to suit your own bias - you don't do low carb because you view it as inferior to your needs or not of your preference.
I often read the experiences of people who stuck with low carb due to their successes. Those are the people I am referring too. Myself included, although due to injuries I am not able to be much of an athlete any more.
And how are these thoughts and observations verified. This is a discussion we've had in the past. If it is a bunch of n=1 based on self reporting, it is not reliable. You choose to make decisions based on that kind of thing. I do not.
And just for clarity, I am biased in favor of whatever helps someone achieve their goals most sustainable and effective manner. For some folks that is keto. For others it's not. There are lots of factors, including preference and compliance that go into each individuals decision. However, the science is clear that keto is suboptimal for exercise of any degree of higher intensity and has no metabolic advantage for fat loss. Keto appears to have some advantage for hunger signalling and control for those who struggle with that.
Someone may choose to do keto anyway for their own reasons but that doesn't change the science. And it doesn't mean a keto diet person eats carbs, exercises and stays in ketosis just because they say they do.
So, my bias is not anti keto. It's anti single solution and the promulgation of less than factual info to support contentions. You've been asked multiple times to post any significant study data that supports your position on keto and exercise and all you give is feels and someone said so. This despite the fact that there are over 2200 studies on ketogenic diet on PubMed. For me, your subjective assertions hold not weight. It reminds me of the old saying, when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a naiil.
In all fairness, i think the current limited evidence suggest that low carb is suboptimal for anaerobic/high intensity sports. But there still needs to be more research. Not saying i would ever go low carb because i have tried and it was brutal.
Yes, you are right of course if based on the Aragon/ Schoenfeld meta-analysis. Interestingly, I don't have workout issues when low carb, I haven't done keto except for a brief stretch some years ago. But I do have more recovery issues and fatigue afterwards when low carb. I am not a high carb eater in general though. Average day is generally between 100g and 150g.
Cool. And i can definitely understand the recovery aspect. I didn't realize you were largely still low carb.0
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