Metabolic Suppression, Global Warming, and Sasquatch,.....Which one is real?

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  • Crafty_camper123
    Crafty_camper123 Posts: 1,440 Member
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    @nettiklive I think you explained the set point theory pretty well here. The only thing I'm not sure about is the fat cells. I have heard that fat cells will reduce if they are empty for long enough... This is how someone can lose weight, and how their body achieves a new state of homeostasis. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but this part does make sense to me. Wouldn't this be how one's hunger hormones would adjust after weight loss? After so many months, the person is used to their new calorie intake, the body absorbs those old fat cells, and the hunger hormones act accordingly. Then, they could theoretically eat and have activities at their new lifestyle without tracking and maintain whatever weight they ended up at. They have created a new set point for their body. Still though, whether or not our emptied fat cells are angrily demanding we feed them, or if it's just all a mental game, set point can be overridden. If it couldn't no one could maintain their new weight long term.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    sarahbums wrote: »
    they're all real!

    the 'squatch ended up so huge because years of crash diets 'ruined' his metabolism and caused him to get stuck at his 'set point'. Out of frustration, he resorted to his most extreme diet yet: the Egg Diet. This has given him a major case of the Egg Farts for the last 20 years. Egg Farts contain methane. Methane contributes to- you guessed it- global warming.

    it's all connected. wake up, sheeple.

    You win the internet!! :D
  • Crafty_camper123
    Crafty_camper123 Posts: 1,440 Member
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    @kimny72 I was going to challenge that as well, but couldn't put it into words very well. A small 100-200 calorie daily average surplus is exactly what landed me here. I do think the body does try to maintain whatever weight it's at, but many people aren't very in tune with their bodies. I got overweight because I would overeat (because food is tasty), and ignore those "okay stop" signals my stomach was sending me. That small 100-200 calorie difference is why as you put it "middle age spread" happens. Set point in the sense that one's body tries to maintain the weight it is at currently when put in a deficit is probably 20% science, and 80% mental & habits.
  • Crafty_camper123
    Crafty_camper123 Posts: 1,440 Member
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    @AnvilHead I read that article you posted a few posts up. It was a fascinating read. I feel likr a lot of people especially those who think they are "stuck" at set point should read it.. both parts though.

    @bpetrosky so sasquatch smells like eggs? I always thought that was the ever elusive barking spider...

  • nettiklive
    nettiklive Posts: 206 Member
    edited April 2018
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    kimny72 wrote: »

    The fact that people aren't tracking does not mean that they aren't eating the right amount of calories. They eat 200 cals over one day, they eat 200 cals under the next day and over time they are generally matching their calorie needs. You keep making the assumption that if people aren't trying to gain or lose weight, they are eating the wrong amount of calories and therefore their bodies must be adjusting to maintain their current weight. I don't understand why you assume this. I would be far more likely to assume these people simply have accurate hunger cues and lifestyles that keep them from mindlessly snacking.

    The reason I assume that is because I've read here over and over again how, unless you're not just tracking but weighing every single crumb you eat on a food scale, you "have no idea how much you're eating" and are likely grossly underestimating intake which is making you gain. Even for people who are measuring and tracking to create significant deficit (which, even if the figures are slightly off due to measurement error, is usually still less than how much they were eating before, so technically they should still be losing. People who are starting to try and lose weight don't typically just keep eating the same amounts of food and expect to start losing). Yet people who don't even think about calories or their tdee or anything close are just magically maintaining for years, creating the perfect balance of calories? I mean it's possible, but it's just sooo hard to wrap my brain around!
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    edited April 2018
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    nettiklive wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    nettiklive wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    WillingtoLose1001984 wrote: »
    quiksylver296 wrote: »
    Why do people get fat then? Why does this only kick in when people try to lose weight?

    I have only gained very large amounts of weight in my adult life because of medications that totally altered my appetite, metabolism, cravings and satiety levels. I only gained about 20 or so lbs during pregnancy but certain psych meds, antipsychotics, contributed to my gaining over 120 lbs in a few months.

    But if "set point" is a thing, why didn't your body fight against gaining that weight? Why would it only fight someone trying to lose weight?

    I have mentioned a number of times on this thread that I personally had the experience of maintaining the same weight for over ten years with no tracking and plenty of times where I must have been going over tdee, but I wasn't doing it extremely or consistently so it simply wasn't affecting my weight. I'm a mere 5-6 lbs more (gained during pregnancy) yet I haven't been able to lose them for two years in spite of tracking and eating less than I did then. If I haven't gotten pregnant, I would have most likely still been maintaining the same weight as before. Likewise I know a number of people who are thin and remain that way in spite of never tracking, not exercising, and eating whatever they want in whatever amounts they want and never gaining. So the body does fight against gaining as well. We're just evolutionary more predisposed towards preserving energy rather than spending. People who do gain large amounts of weight with no medical issues are generally those who overeat in large amounts, ignoring natural hunger and satiety signals; if you watch shows like 600 Lb life, most of them have severe emotional issues they self-medicate with food. If you give the body a consistent large surplus or large deficit, weight will of course move. Yet for the majority of people, it stays stable for years without tracking at all, which says something for the body wanting to maintain a weight (notice I said 'a weight' - not any specific weight, but the given weight the body is at right now). And for those who have lost a large amount of weight, there are mechanisms such as increased hunger and decreased metabolic rate which work to try and regain, as they've said about Biggest Loser participants. I've also heard the theory mentioned above that fat cells can be formed but can't be removed, only shrunk, and fat cells produce hormones such as leptin that influence hunger.

    Most obese people didn't get there by eating 100-200 calories a day over maintenance. Nor are you likely to lose weight on that much of a deficit (measurement issues aside, let's assume we can measure perfectly). The body makes subtle adjustments to make up for the minor fluctuations in intake that pretty much all of us have daily.

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/set-points-settling-points-and-bodyweight-regulation-part-1.html/

    Read both part 1 and part 2 before you start screaming "See????? I was right!!!!!"

    I don't see how that negates anything I was saying, and part 2 does not contradict part 1.

    OF COURSE, behavior plays the main role in weight change or maintenance. However, that doesn't negate the fact that there ARE biological mechanisms designed to try and maintain weight - and Lyle states so himself several times, and does not refute that point. Unlike mice, we can override these mechanisms, we have the rational brain to think, 'hey I may be extra hungry after losing all that weight and want to eat everything in sight, but I won't".

    But all I was trying to say, and this article backs me up, is that those mechanisms do exist. I am tired of reading over and over on here posters claiming that "the BODY does not 'want' to do anything, it's all YOU and your habits". No, the body DOES have evolutionary adaptations to weight change, loss in particular. Which of course does not mean one can't overcome them to lose or gain weight.

    I would compare it to body temperature. Our body strives to keep it normal, though some people run naturally a bit 'colder', like myself, and some hotter. If exposed to a cold environment, it will make us shiver and eventually limit movement to try and generate/ conserve heat much as possible. If exposed to heat, we will sweat to try and cool off. We have no control over these things, they just happen (and again, some people will sweat/shiver more than others and cool down or warm up more effectively). However, obviously if you continue to sit out lightly dressed in extremely cold temperatures, shivering won't help - you'll eventually freeze to death, or get heatstroke in heat. Because the body's defenses can only do so much. Sure, your habits and lifestyle dictate whether you're exposed to extreme temperatures. That's under your control. But your physiological response to them isn't. Two different things that are not mutually exclusive.

    FWIW, I agree with all of this. The problem I run into is that people take the idea of those biological mechanisms you mentioned and use them as an excuse to why they can't lose weight. "Oh, I guess my body just wants to weight 9 thousand pounds. I guess there's nothing else for me to do but to have more chips ahoys." No. Just no.

    I will also add that while those mechanisms exist, they are pretty weak in comparison to our habits, decision making, etc. It is exceptionally easy to counter balance them such that we can gain or lose weight despite what the body "wants to do."

    Additionally, I DON'T believe that the body works to be a specific weight. I think it works to to maintain a healthy body composition.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    nettiklive wrote: »
    AnvilHead wrote: »
    nettiklive wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    WillingtoLose1001984 wrote: »
    quiksylver296 wrote: »
    Why do people get fat then? Why does this only kick in when people try to lose weight?

    I have only gained very large amounts of weight in my adult life because of medications that totally altered my appetite, metabolism, cravings and satiety levels. I only gained about 20 or so lbs during pregnancy but certain psych meds, antipsychotics, contributed to my gaining over 120 lbs in a few months.

    But if "set point" is a thing, why didn't your body fight against gaining that weight? Why would it only fight someone trying to lose weight?

    I have mentioned a number of times on this thread that I personally had the experience of maintaining the same weight for over ten years with no tracking and plenty of times where I must have been going over tdee, but I wasn't doing it extremely or consistently so it simply wasn't affecting my weight. I'm a mere 5-6 lbs more (gained during pregnancy) yet I haven't been able to lose them for two years in spite of tracking and eating less than I did then. If I haven't gotten pregnant, I would have most likely still been maintaining the same weight as before. Likewise I know a number of people who are thin and remain that way in spite of never tracking, not exercising, and eating whatever they want in whatever amounts they want and never gaining. So the body does fight against gaining as well. We're just evolutionary more predisposed towards preserving energy rather than spending. People who do gain large amounts of weight with no medical issues are generally those who overeat in large amounts, ignoring natural hunger and satiety signals; if you watch shows like 600 Lb life, most of them have severe emotional issues they self-medicate with food. If you give the body a consistent large surplus or large deficit, weight will of course move. Yet for the majority of people, it stays stable for years without tracking at all, which says something for the body wanting to maintain a weight (notice I said 'a weight' - not any specific weight, but the given weight the body is at right now). And for those who have lost a large amount of weight, there are mechanisms such as increased hunger and decreased metabolic rate which work to try and regain, as they've said about Biggest Loser participants. I've also heard the theory mentioned above that fat cells can be formed but can't be removed, only shrunk, and fat cells produce hormones such as leptin that influence hunger.

    Most obese people didn't get there by eating 100-200 calories a day over maintenance. Nor are you likely to lose weight on that much of a deficit (measurement issues aside, let's assume we can measure perfectly). The body makes subtle adjustments to make up for the minor fluctuations in intake that pretty much all of us have daily.

    https://bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/set-points-settling-points-and-bodyweight-regulation-part-1.html/

    Read both part 1 and part 2 before you start screaming "See????? I was right!!!!!"

    I don't see how that negates anything I was saying, and part 2 does not contradict part 1.

    OF COURSE, behavior plays the main role in weight change or maintenance. However, that doesn't negate the fact that there ARE biological mechanisms designed to try and maintain weight - and Lyle states so himself several times, and does not refute that point. Unlike mice, we can override these mechanisms, we have the rational brain to think, 'hey I may be extra hungry after losing all that weight and want to eat everything in sight, but I won't".

    But all I was trying to say, and this article backs me up, is that those mechanisms do exist. I am tired of reading over and over on here posters claiming that "the BODY does not 'want' to do anything, it's all YOU and your habits". No, the body DOES have evolutionary adaptations to weight change, loss in particular. Which of course does not mean one can't overcome them to lose or gain weight.

    I would compare it to body temperature. Our body strives to keep it normal, though some people run naturally a bit 'colder', like myself, and some hotter. If exposed to a cold environment, it will make us shiver and eventually limit movement to try and generate/ conserve heat much as possible. If exposed to heat, we will sweat to try and cool off. We have no control over these things, they just happen (and again, some people will sweat/shiver more than others and cool down or warm up more effectively). However, obviously if you continue to sit out lightly dressed in extremely cold temperatures, shivering won't help - you'll eventually freeze to death, or get heatstroke in heat. Because the body's defenses can only do so much. Sure, your habits and lifestyle dictate whether you're exposed to extreme temperatures. That's under your control. But your physiological response to them isn't. Two different things that are not mutually exclusive.

    FWIW, I agree with all of this. The problem I run into is that people take the idea of those biological mechanisms you mentioned and use them as an excuse to why they can't lose weight. "Oh, I guess my body just wants to weight 9 thousand pounds. I guess there's nothing else for me to do but to have more chips ahoys." No. Just no.

    I will also add that while those mechanisms exist, they are pretty weak in comparison to our habits, decision making, etc. It is exceptionally easy to counter balance them such that we can gain or lose weight despite what the body "wants to do."

    Additionally, I DON'T believe that the body works to be a specific weight. I think it works to to maintain a healthy body composition.

    This is pretty much what I was going to say. The body does have mechanisms in place to maintain homeostasis, at least in the short run...like you're not going to put on a bunch of fat with a big calorie day because your body can utilize excess energy in the short run. This is not set point though.

    Our habits and behaviors can easily override the body's abilities to maintain homeostasis.
  • quiksylver296
    quiksylver296 Posts: 28,442 Member
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    WillingtoLose1001984 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    WillingtoLose1001984 wrote: »
    quiksylver296 wrote: »
    Why do people get fat then? Why does this only kick in when people try to lose weight?

    I have only gained very large amounts of weight in my adult life because of medications that totally altered my appetite, metabolism, cravings and satiety levels. I only gained about 20 or so lbs during pregnancy but certain psych meds, antipsychotics, contributed to my gaining over 120 lbs in a few months.

    But if "set point" is a thing, why didn't your body fight against gaining that weight? Why would it only fight someone trying to lose weight?

    I figured it was because meds like those change your set point. Simple as that.

    And if you don't take any meds? Then what?

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