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Is veganism only possible with enough money?
shaumom
Posts: 1,003 Member
in Debate Club
I have heard it said that the poorer you get, the less you are able to follow a vegan diet. So I would ask: is veganism a diet of the those with money, or can even those without money follow it?
First follow up question - if you think a vegan diet CAN be done, regardless of income, can you come up with a meal plan for an adult that would prove it? Just with something looking at basics- 1 week meal plan for 1 small adult, on a food stamps budget (about $34 a week), who requires a 2,000 calorie diet and 46 g of protein a day.
Second follow up - if you figured out a meal plan that is in budget, is it actually one you think you could follow yourself for a long period?
Bonus follow up - If you made a diet plan, how much more expensive is it if you had to get allergen free versions of any of the meal plan's components? (like Gluten Free flour vs flour, or peanut free nuts, etc...)
First follow up question - if you think a vegan diet CAN be done, regardless of income, can you come up with a meal plan for an adult that would prove it? Just with something looking at basics- 1 week meal plan for 1 small adult, on a food stamps budget (about $34 a week), who requires a 2,000 calorie diet and 46 g of protein a day.
Second follow up - if you figured out a meal plan that is in budget, is it actually one you think you could follow yourself for a long period?
Bonus follow up - If you made a diet plan, how much more expensive is it if you had to get allergen free versions of any of the meal plan's components? (like Gluten Free flour vs flour, or peanut free nuts, etc...)
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You are talking about meal plans made up of substitutes, rather than embracing foods that can be eaten.
Veganism is expensive if you want to eat Quorn imitations of meat lovers' favorites.
Gluten free is expensive if you want to eat gluten free imitations of wheat products.
Neither is expensive if you eat the things you can eat as they are rather than manipulating them into something they aren't.69 -
I don't know, legumes are not expensive, vegetables in season are not expensive, grains are some of the cheapest foods you can find. During Lent (almost 100% vegan) our family spends less on food rather than more. I dislike vegan meal plans because they depend too much on specialty foods. There are plenty of normal dishes that don't use meat or dairy or can easily be modified to be (mushrooms or beans instead of meat, vegetable stock, oil or margarine instead of butter...etc).
If you browse this website, for example, you will find many vegan dishes or dishes that can easily be made vegan with the easiest and cheapest substitutions:
https://www.budgetbytes.com/
Here is an example of the first thing I thought looked delicious, and it happens to be naturally vegan:
https://www.budgetbytes.com/2015/06/spanish-chickpeas-and-rice-meal/
ETA: we don't have any serious allergies in the house so we don't buy anything that is specifically allergen free, but I suspect the same thing applies, you could just make normal foods that don't contain the things you're allergic to or substitute them with a regular cheap ingredient, like corn tortillas instead of wheat for gluten free.
For your other question, yes, I personally would be able to follow a vegan plan long term and enjoy it. I would miss dairy, though, and the few meat dishes that I like. I would also not be able to get enough protein because I don't have access to soy products.12 -
1) Can it be done? Sure it can. It would involve a lot of bagged frozen vegetables, bulk beans, rice and grains, tofu, soybeans and maybe the cheapest fruits you could find.
2) Sustainable in the long term? I don't find vegan diets sustainable in the first place, so I guess I'm not the best qualified to answer that question. But I imagine it would get very monotonous very quickly.
Bonus question: As concordancia said, gluten-free isn't necessarily any more expensive unless you're trying to buy gluten free imitations of gluten-containing products.22 -
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it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
Just to clarify, the question in the OP was for one small adult, not a family of four. Feeding a family of four on the stated budget would be basically impossible, vegan or not.26 -
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it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford.
That only applies if they buy specialty foods. What's luxurious about dried beans and grains or vegetables in season? Like I stated earlier, we eat vegan for about 3 months a year and our food tends to be a lot cheaper when we do because we're not fancy about it. You can be fancy about non-vegan food too, like buying organic and whatnot.38 -
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amusedmonkey wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford.
That only applies if they buy specialty foods. What's luxurious about dried beans and grains or vegetables in season? Like I stated earlier, we eat vegan for about 3 months a year and our food tends to be a lot cheaper when we do because we're not fancy about it. You can be fancy about non-vegan food too, like buying organic and whatnot.
even if dried beans and veggies are the same price as say, a couple of frozen dinners, most people are gonna choose to go with the frozen stuff because it requires no prep. whereas fresh foods require you to look up recipes, go grocery shopping more often to get fresh produce, and chop/prep/cook a meal. Yeah, it may be cheap, but it's labor intensive, and that's a huge factor for people on a tight budget who are already busy and stressed.
not to mention, most people would get tired of just eating grains, veggies, beans/lentils/tofu/etc. I know I would. It's just a boring way to eat to be honest.
That's just personal preference and circumstances. I personally find more variety in vegan dishes than I do in meat dishes due to my own food preference. We don't have frozen meals here, but I suspect cheap vegan ready-made meals exist just because some common meals don't have dairy or meat without being labeled vegan. The only thing I know from experience in that regard is instant noodles when I'm very busy. I usually go for vegetables or mushroom flavor and they're the same price as chicken or seafood flavor. Most hot and cold cereals are vegan. Many chips and snacky foods are vegan. Instant and quick cooking soups. Many granola bars. Frozen pre-cut fries. Steamers. Instant rice. That's to name a few. You're letting your own food preferences color your opinion.27 -
...I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner...
Ketchup sandwich is vegan.
P.S. I cook most of my own meals, and they're centered around really cheap vegan stuff like beans and grains and frozen vegetables, and stuff that's in season and on sale, etc. My food is also gluten free. (If you don't buy a bunch of processed gluten free certified specialty products and stick to naturally gluten free food, it's not expensive to be GF.)
I don't think it's more expensive to go vegan unless you are buying high-end specialty crap, but I do think that people living in certain communities may have less access to nutritious foods - like if they only live near convenience stores and can't travel, for example, they might have less overall selection and more overall junk food available. And a lot of this junk food isn't vegan, so yes, it would be harder and more expensive to be vegan in certain locales. (But convenience store junk food isn't cheap, either, IMO, so you can't even afford a junk food diet if that's where you shop.)
I personally could save some money if I went vegan, but I choose not to, so I end up spending more because I still eat all the good stuff a vegan would eat, but I also add animal proteins into my budget as well. And animal proteins are more expensive than beans and rice. The main reason I could save money as a vegan is because I cook from scratch and all those base ingredients are really cheap. But if I primarily ate frozen dinners and processed, packaged meals, then it would probably be cheaper to eat non-vegan.10 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford.
That only applies if they buy specialty foods. What's luxurious about dried beans and grains or vegetables in season? Like I stated earlier, we eat vegan for about 3 months a year and our food tends to be a lot cheaper when we do because we're not fancy about it. You can be fancy about non-vegan food too, like buying organic and whatnot.
even if dried beans and veggies are the same price as say, a couple of frozen dinners, most people are gonna choose to go with the frozen stuff because it requires no prep. whereas fresh foods require you to look up recipes, go grocery shopping more often to get fresh produce, and chop/prep/cook a meal. Yeah, it may be cheap, but it's labor intensive, and that's a huge factor for people on a tight budget who are already busy and stressed and tired and honestly don't give a damn about veganism in the first place.
not to mention, most people would get tired of just eating grains, veggies, beans/lentils/tofu/etc. I know I would. It's just a boring way to eat to be honest. Who's really gonna pick that over a nice 50 cent box of mac 'n cheese?
Well, then, that's a choice. It sounds more like personal preference and a convenience issue than a cost one. And that's OK. No one needs to make excuses for the way they choose to feed themselves. Just do what works for you. Live and let live.
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it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
Just to clarify, the question in the OP was for one small adult, not a family of four. Feeding a family of four on the stated budget would be basically impossible, vegan or not.
i know, I just hate that these threads always use a household size of 1 as the example. Most people live with others/have families that they also have to cook for. I'm just really interested in seeing if anyone can pull off a family friendly vegan day of eating. I've never seen it done on here.
So i guess someone could just multiply the individual allowance by 4 and use that as the hypothetical budget?amusedmonkey wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford.
That only applies if they buy specialty foods. What's luxurious about dried beans and grains or vegetables in season? Like I stated earlier, we eat vegan for about 3 months a year and our food tends to be a lot cheaper when we do because we're not fancy about it. You can be fancy about non-vegan food too, like buying organic and whatnot.
even if dried beans and veggies are the same price as say, a couple of frozen dinners, most people are gonna choose to go with the frozen stuff because it requires no prep. whereas fresh foods require you to look up recipes, go grocery shopping more often to get fresh produce, and chop/prep/cook a meal. Yeah, it may be cheap, but it's labor intensive, and that's a huge factor for people on a tight budget who are already busy and stressed and tired and honestly don't give a damn about veganism in the first place.
not to mention, most people would get tired of just eating grains, veggies, beans/lentils/tofu/etc. I know I would. It's just a boring way to eat to be honest. Who's really gonna pick that over a nice 50 cent box of mac 'n cheese?
Judgemental much? You seem to have a pretty warped view of veganism. I've known plenty of vegans who manage to eat healthily on low incomes (no, I don't know how much they spend on weekly groceries, and it would be irrelevant here anyway as I live in a different country with a different cost of living), including some who are, shock horror, single, childless and live on their own (we do exist).
As to the bolded, people who've made a choice, based on their ethical beliefs, not to eat animal products maybe? You do get that for most vegans it's an ethical choice, right? And just because you don't like that food, doesn't mean others don't, including non-vegans. I could make some pretty damn tasty meals with those ingredients and some herbs and spices. But I can cook, so...35 -
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amusedmonkey wrote: »
That's just personal preference and circumstances. I personally find more variety in vegan dishes than I do in meat dishes due to my own food preference. We don't have frozen meals here, but I suspect cheap vegan ready-made meals exist just because some common meals don't have dairy or meat without being labeled vegan. The only thing I know from experience in that regard is instant noodles when I'm very busy. I usually go for vegetables or mushroom flavor and they're the same price as chicken or seafood flavor. Most hot and cold cereals are vegan. Many chips and snacky foods are vegan. Instant and quick cooking soups. Many granola bars. Frozen pre-cut fries. Steamers. Instant rice. That's to name a few. You're letting your own food preferences color your opinion.
they're not just *my* preferences though. They're the preferences of many, if not most, low income people. In most of our families poverty spans many generations, therefore so do our eating habits. So I ate the stuff my mom made with our food stamp money, and she ate what my grandma made with her food stamp money, and so on.
And that's alright. Those who don't want/like/care to be vegan have every right not to be. Those who do choose to be can do it on a budget and conveniently. That's why your view is narrow. You're looking through your own eyes and the eyes of those around you who do not care to be vegan. It doesn't matter what the majority prefers and what choices the majority of people make, OP is asking about possibilities for those who have different preferences and/or want to make different choices. Is it a common choice? Probably not. Is it a choice that is possible to pull off on a budget? Definitely.18 -
Veganism is only expensive if, and only if, you want to eat substitutes. Cheese substitutes made out of cashews can get very pricey. Derived products too.
I have been a vegan for almost 2 years, and it is much cheaper for me.
I base my meals on whole food. Nothing processed, with the exception of b12 enriched nutritional yeast (Or a multivitamin of your own choice)
Rice, Beans, lentils, chickpeas, peas, corn, spring mix bags, broccoli, tomatoes, onions, aspargus, mushrooms, carrots, zucchini, cucumbers, eggplants, Avocados, oats and so on.
I fill my belly in every meal, 3 meals a day, most of it is organic from Costco and I never go over 40 a week.
It is labor intensive because you will have to do most of the cooking yourself, but aside from that, it is not expensive, at all.
Take a prime cut of steak and see how much you can buy in vegetables with the same money. Do the same with cheese, cold cuts, etc. That should give you a definitive answer.
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@sarahbums, you seem unreasonably angry.
Also, as someone who has been on food stamps, let me tell you, meat was certainly not in the budget, and neither were frozen dinners!
Note: I am not claiming everyone can be vegan. There are people living in food deserts without cars. There are people with allergies and health concerns and other special needs. But barring those, expense shouldn't stop someone from going vegan. What is cheaper than beans and tofu? The only animal protein that comes remotely close in price is eggs.
I just finished my vegan grocery shopping online at WalMart. I spent $57.28 before tax (people on food stamps don't have to worry about taxes) but that included some luxury items that I wouldn't buy on a tight budget, pre-diced butternut squash, sourdough bread, and italian seasoning which I would purchase at Aldi for 99 cents instead of WalMart for 3 dollars. I usually shop at Aldi regardless, but I have an ankle injury so the WalMart pickup service gives them the edge. I'll use WalMart prices since I have them in front of me.
With 34 dollars I would buy:
1 lb lentils @ 1.54 each = 1.54
1 lb chickpeas @ 1.37 = 1.37
1 lb navy beans @ 1.37 = 1.37
2 lbs pasta = 1.97
10 lbs potatoes =4.94
5 lbs carrots @ 3.22 = 3.22
1 cabbage = 1.74
2 bags froz spinach @ .86 =1.72
1 bags froz broccoli @ .86 = .86
4 lemons @ .50 =2.00
7 bananas @ .18 =1.26
42 oz oatmeal @ 2.48 =2.48
2 can diced tomatoes@ .72 =1.54
1 can tomato paste @ .46 = .46
1 jar peanut butter @ 2.18 = 2.18
1 head garlic = .46
3 lbs onions =2.14
1 block tofu = 1.84
1 small jar capers = 1.24
1 small bottle soy sauce = 1.62
= 35.95 I could have gotten it down lower by buying only the potatoes, carrots, and onions that I would need this week, but opted to have leftover food at the end of the week that I could apply to next week's menu.
Breakfast: oatmeal with 2 tablespoons peanut butter and a banana
Lunch: lentil tomato stew http://www.geniuskitchen.com/recipe/easy-lentil-stew-191459
or lemony lentil and greens soup http://makingthymeforhealth.com/lemony-lentil-greens-soup/
Dinner: pasta with chickpeas and spaghetti sauce
or tomato, white bean, spinach soup https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1014524-quick-tomato-white-bean-and-kale-soup
or pasta tossed with peanut sauce, baked tofu, and shredded cabbage https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/chinese-peanut-sauce-15580
or chickpea piccata over mashed potatoes http://www.isachandra.com/2010/09/chickpea-picatta/
or roasted potato lentil salad with lemon caper dressing https://www.happyheartedkitchen.com/salads/lemon-caper-dressing-potato-salad
or stir fried pasta, broccoli, and carrots with tofu and soy sauce
I didn't include some seasonings called for in the recipes like bouillon, because many of the things I purchased would last a single person for a great deal longer than a week which would free up some room. I would use canola oil where the recipes call for olive oil, which I bought a giant jug of for 1.88 a few weeks ago. I threw in the capers to show that it wouldn't be total deprivation. None of the recipes I've quoted would use up all my beans, so I could double the beans for more protein if needed, or have roasted chickpeas as a snack, A 5 lb bag of rice at WalMart is only $2.32, so next week I could get that and a jar of salsa and use my leftover beans in a take on rice and beans. Also I could toss my carrots and potatoes with some canola and roast them in the oven for a change of pace. Dry pinto beans would be even cheaper than the ones I've chosen here if I wanted to make a chili or refried bean burritos.
Edit to add: I could also go a lot simpler, and use canned beans instead of dried, but that would mean fewer vegetables, which are already on the light side, so I went this way, but there are lots of ways to crack this nut.49 -
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I KNOW. I could have gotten a whole BAG of lemons for just over 3 dollars, instead of 4 for 2, but I was trying to trim back to accommodate the budget. LOL.3
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There are entire nations that eat vegan, cheaply. Think of India. For a good part of the world meat protein is expensive and occasional only.
They have to worry about getting sufficient iron and protein but with creativity it can be done.
Our local African immigrants eat very cheaply but the cooks are staying at home, buying their bulk rice and beans at discount, and spending a fair amount of time on food prep.14 -
my sister is a vegan and while single - makes a weeks worth of food for about $25 a week because of beans, canned tomatos etc - so it can be done - would I do it - I could if I wanted
I made a pretty killer barley/sweet potato pilaf that was vegan for $6 and it fed me for 7 lunches with leftovers10 -
It absolutely can be done. In college I got a 5 lb bag of rice, huge bags of dried beans and a packet of sazon for roughly $5. That made enough food for a week if needed. Add in your bananas and oats for breakfast and some frozen veggies and you'll still well under the given amount.
There's no way to argue something that is personal choice though. I may like rice and beans while the next person may not. It's pointless to come up with hypothetical meal plans to prove that it can be done because what I like or consider healthy may be very different for the next person.
I volunteered extensively at a work force education program and all of the participants where on food stamps and lived in government housing. I assure you that I've met low income vegans who get by just fine with their food stamps and are able to prepare vegan meals within their food stamp budget.
It's senseless to argue about personal choices and preference though, everyone will have a different opinion. It's silly to argue opinion because there's no clear cut fact involved.13 -
Lentils, beans, rice, potato, these staples are cheap.
Then there's fresh veg for flavour and bulk - a bit more expensive, but not as expensive as flavouring food with meat.
No... veganism is way cheaper than omnivoreism.8 -
I avoid processed foods and limit eating out because it is expensive and makes it hard to keep the weight off. I eat vegan meals 2 times per day (not for ethical reasons, but because of my family history of heart disease, colon cancer, and stroke) and one meal with animal protein daily (eggs, fish, chicken, and red meat (no more than once per week because of that less than stellar family history). To keep things easy, I batch cook brown rice, farro, and lentils, and steel cut oatmeal. I buy one or two cans of beans each week, simply because I am the only family member who eats them and it is easier. I buy less expensive vegetables and fruits like apples, carrots, celery, cabbage, sweet potatoes, squash, and whatever is in season. We are a family of four and my eating pattern means that we end the week with an empty produce drawer and fruit bowl. You don't need to go to extremes, just mix and match different foods to make simple, healthy dishes at home.7
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In my late teens/early 20s I lived off anywhere form $15 - $40 a week on groceries (depending on if I could get overtime), and I was/am a vegetarian. I found that my diet became naturally more vegan the less money I had to spend because dairy was a luxury item. I would buy my produce at either the farmers market or the latin market, because they would always have sale racks of produce that was soon to expire (usually with the "bad parts" cut off and sold in bulk packs). I shopped based on what was on sale and would make a large batch of chili/soup/sauce with it as soon as I got home, because it lasted longer that way. I bought dry beans and rice from either the latin market or Asian market (plus rice noodles and some other inexpensive Asian produce when possible), and pasta from the dollar store. It wasn't too hard honestly, and I learned fairly quickly how to make the same base items taste like completely different meals with different variations so I never really got bored of my meals. I didn't have food stamps, but I do remember seeing signs at many markets indicating they accepted them.9
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Dried beans, potatoes, pasta, oats, rice, frozen vegetables, cabbage, onions, canned tomatoes . . . I've been vegan for about ten years and I've done it on all types of budgets. When I first went vegan, our food budget was pretty slim so I did it for about $20 a week. Now I spend more, but it's because we have more.
Could someone do it? No doubt. How tolerable they found it would depend on their motivation for going vegan. I never minded it but then veganism wasn't being imposed on me.
I think people who are doing this thought experiment are often coming from a place of still *wanting* to have things like chicken and cheese, so the thought of going without them (and doing it on a cheaper food budget) feels like deprivation. When I did it, I wanted to be vegan. It never felt like a big deal to me.
I don't think veganism is only possible with enough money. I do think that vegans with more money should be sensitive about expecting people who already don't have much to give up what they perceive as genuine sources of pleasure in their life.
I can afford things like vegan ice cream and cheese now so for me to act like asking someone to live on dried beans and oats is no big deal isn't cool. For some people, it is a big deal and no amount of pretending on my part is going to make that feeling go away.18 -
My husband and I aren't vegan but we eat 6 days a week on about $40-50/week (always between $35-60), eating primarily vegetarian meals (no meat cooked at home but we do consume eggs and some fish). We make almost every meal from scratch though and I realize not everyone has that kind of time (my husband works from home & is super skilled at cooking an amazing meal from some dried beans or tofu and raw veggies).
Anyway, I know people who eat similarly to the way we do but rely more on prepared items and strive to do 100% organic/non-GMO, and they wind up spending well over $150 per week for a very SIMILAR diet for 2 adult household. A friend of mine thinks nothing of spending $20+ on items to create one everyday dinner for she and her husband. To me that's crazy, everyone's different.
We do spend quite a bit on dining out (but just 2 meals on Saturday, usually).1 -
If anyone's looking for serious ideas on a cheap & flavorful vegan diet I recommend Kicki Yang Zhang's YouTube "What I eat in a day" videos, there aren't a ton of them but they are excellent.0
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