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Is veganism only possible with enough money?

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  • shaumom
    shaumom Posts: 1,003 Member
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    @janejellyroll
    Looking back at my last comment, I wanted to say that I don't mean the above comment to be trying to slam your desire to stick to your ethical beliefs about veganism. Or belittle your will power, or your ability to buckle down and work your butt off for what is important to you.

    Most just commenting on, I guess, the realities of our food supply when it shrinks.

    Most folks really aren't aware of just how interconnected our food suppliers are, so they don't realize how difficult it becomes if something IN that food supply can be bad for your health. It's just extremely difficult to avoid it, to an insane degree.

    And when it comes to growing our food, unless one has been living solely off your own food for a while, there are difficulties there that most of us in first world countries haven't had to deal with for a generation or two.

    A few years ago, I had some severe allergies hit out of nowhere. Doctors couldn't figure out what was safe for me and what wasn't, my throat was swelling up with nearly everything I ate. I literally was down to 5 foods plus salt, and all of them only worked from specific farmers, and a specific rancher.

    And I got to experience the reality of how, well, delicate our food supply can be. Insects, weather, and disease can destroy a crop for a few weeks, or a season, or the whole year. If you have multiple farmers in multiple states providing food for a store, then it's not a problem and you don't really have to think about it, because your store will get the food from somewhere. But when you have just one farmer, or two? You simply don't have food any more.

    It happened to me one year when we had a sudden hard freeze in my area. My garden veggies died, and all the local farmer's lost their crops and had nothing to offer for a few weeks. Some crops were simply wiped out and they had to wait until the next year to get them again.

    It was a really painful lesson about what can happen when food choices becomes were very limited due to allergens, or potentially other restricted dietary choices.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    edited May 2018
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    shaumom wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    ...If I was in this situation, I would probably begin growing my own beans and drying them for year-round use or finding a local farmer who was willing to work with me on sourcing some beans/gluten-free grains that were processed in a way that avoided gluten contamination.

    I would do this, even though it would be a giant pain, because it's an ethical thing for me. Without those ethical motivations, I can't see someone sticking to it. What I'm imagining on this diet is that I would spend a good amount of time locating food that fit into my goals, buying it in bulk, and then preserving it. It wouldn't be a meal plan that I could just go to the store and get for $34 a week.

    Can't be done? I think it could. Would it require a lot of time and effort, especially since it has to be done cheaply? I think so.

    I would say that this sort of thing - interacting with farmers to try and get safe sources of foods - absolutely can be done. I have had to do this myself a few times - both grow some foods, and try to find safe sources. And wow, yes, it is a lot of time and effort.

    But although time and effort is intense for this (enough that if you have to work long enough hours, you may not be able to do this at all), the real issue ended up being cost and resources.

    First, you have to live in an area that grows the food you want to grow/buy, or you have to interview farmers from all over the country to try and find it. Also, growing our own food takes a lot of land, so if one doesn't have that...out of luck, you know? And most of us with little money don't have a lot of land. Heck, even the only community garden plots around my area have maybe 1/4-1/2 the plot size needed to grow a year's worth of beans and nothing else, so that wouldn't work, either. And one would need to acquire the space to store a year's worth of beans/grains, etc... as well.

    If one was to try to get food from a farmer, instead...

    Assuming you have farmers that grow beans and/or grains in one's area, farmers at this point typically don't own their own harvesters, but either rent them from a central place, or sometimes a group of farmers will essentially joint-own one and they use them together, because the harvesters are so expensive. Which means that many grains and legumes are contaminated at harvest time from other farms, even if the farmer we deal with has a safe field of crops. Same issue with shipping trucks. So if you can pay them for an entire harvesting and shipping truck, and gas, just for themselves, they are likely not going to be able to eliminate that issue. And for getting foods processed, unless one can pay the farmer for special workers to come in and process something by hand, you are stuck with whatever processing company or machinery (often shared, again) the farmer has available.

    While absolutely the farmers I have talked to have been almost universally awesome, they are typically not able, or willing, to make the necessary changes for fully allergen free beans/grains/etc... without someone paying them a lot more money to do so. Usually because it costs them a lot more money to do so.

    The few cases I've found that have decided to try this on their own, as a selling point, are significantly more expensive. :-/

    Yes, all your points are good ones. Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about sourcing food for people who have allergen concerns. I know I've been really lucky these aren't issues I've had to consider much so I appreciate you taking the time to give me more information on it.

    Your comments didn't seem like a slam at all, you were responding to my thoughts on what I would do in a situation I'm not in with actual information you've learned from actually being in the situation. Real life experience is more relevant here.

  • beagletracks
    beagletracks Posts: 6,035 Member
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    I haven’t read all the posts, so sorry if I’m repeating. Here are some ideas for eating vegan on a budget:

    https://www.forksoverknives.com/healthy-food-on-tight-budget/#gs.3efdMPc

    https://theplantphilosophy.com/plant-based-on-a-budget-challenge-25-week-meal-plan/

    https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-recipes-dont-starve-until-payday/
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    janejellyroll wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    sarahbums wrote: »
    it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.

    I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.



    And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.

    It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).

    Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.

    I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.

    Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.

    And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.

    I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).

    I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    sarahbums wrote: »
    it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.

    I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.



    And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.

    It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).

    Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.

    I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.

    Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.

    And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.

    I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).

    I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.

    I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.

    I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    janejellyroll wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    sarahbums wrote: »
    it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.

    I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.



    And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.

    It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).

    Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.

    I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.

    Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.

    And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.

    I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).

    I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.

    I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.

    I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.

    Yes, I agree with that too, but even canned beans compare favorably in cost to meat, IME.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    janejellyroll wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    sarahbums wrote: »
    it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.

    I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.



    And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.

    It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).

    Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.

    I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.

    Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.

    And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.

    I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).

    I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.

    I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.

    I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.

    Yes, I agree with that too, but even canned beans compare favorably in cost to meat, IME.

    That's a good point. If I was making a $35 a week meal plan, I'd use dried beans. But for people switching from a diet that has a lot of meat to more meatless/vegan styles of eating, even switching from many types of meat to canned beans is probably going to have a favorable impact on their food budget.
  • hesn92
    hesn92 Posts: 5,967 Member
    edited May 2018
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    I’m not understanding how vegan could be expensive. The biggest food group on my grocery budget is meat! Dairy is also pricey (ish) Beans, rice, veggies, bread, not so much.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
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    hesn92 wrote: »
    I’m not understanding how vegan could be expensive. The biggest food group on my grocery budget is meat! Dairy is also pricey (ish) Beans, rice, veggies, bread, not so much.

    Like any type of diet, veganism can be more expensive if you're wanting to buy more organic food, more pre-prepared food, and more artisan/fancy items.

    If you are basing your diet on things like beans, rice, vegetables, and bread, it's pretty affordable.
  • fr33sia12
    fr33sia12 Posts: 1,258 Member
    edited May 2018
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    I think the problem is people aren't willing to put the effort in. They're not willing to shop around, look up recipes, cook meals from scratch, try new things. People want convenience, quantity and variety on a budget without having to do anything for themselves or put much effort into it and then complain that they've put on weight, or are unhealthy, or can't be vegan.
    Just like most things in life you get out of it what you put in to it. If you want to be vegan you have to research it, work at it and I think most people who want to be vegan are willing to do so and people who come up with excuses aren't really that bothered. If you really want to be vegan on a budget you find a way and put the time and effort into it.
  • rsemcleod9842
    rsemcleod9842 Posts: 3 Member
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    I know this is based on the USA, however here in the U.K. on income support, I feed 2 adults & 1 child vegan and a husky on the minimum. Since going vegan we have saved money. We mostly live off in season home meals and do have some processed foods as treats. But we can now afford days out etc!
  • georgieamber2
    georgieamber2 Posts: 229 Member
    edited July 2018
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    hey! Vegan student here:))) when I'm at home with my family, I eat more imitation meats ((still rarely because I would rather cook my own)) ... but when I'm at uni I can make delicious meals for really not a lot of money. I think it is possible, vegetables / legumes and pulses are all cheap ... only thing really is I would say I love a blender ((smoothies and sometimes sauces)) but tbh could live without one.
    Probably could spend £20-£25 a week and eat really well
  • nickssweetheart
    nickssweetheart Posts: 874 Member
    edited July 2018
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    crazyravr wrote: »
    lorrpb wrote: »
    Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?

    Except that they are not. Example.
    Whole chickens are $1.99/lb every day here. That one chicken can feed a family of 4 for few days if you know what to do with and how to use all the parts.
    Broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower etc. are $1.99/lb when on sale here.

    Okay, but lentils are between 99 cents and 1.50/lb and cook up to a lot more food than a pound of chicken does. A single pound of lentils makes 6-8 meals for me, as a hearty eater. Rice starts at 1.50/lb and can go as low as 30 or 40 cents/lb depending upon where you buy it. The chickpeas I'm cooking now which will make another 8 meals cost me $1.37. Personally I can do a lot better than the prices you're citing for broccoli and cauliflower, although not asparagus, but if price is an issue, frozen cauliflower is 84 cents for 12 ounces here. And it would be difficult for many people to eat half a pound of cauliflower at a sitting, where most people easily eat 8 ounces of chicken. At least if that's ALL they're eating, as you implied with your "can feed a family for a few days."

    And the artificially low price of that chicken is paid for in brutal conditions for chickens and the cost of a life.

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