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Is veganism only possible with enough money?
Replies
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@janejellyroll
Looking back at my last comment, I wanted to say that I don't mean the above comment to be trying to slam your desire to stick to your ethical beliefs about veganism. Or belittle your will power, or your ability to buckle down and work your butt off for what is important to you.
Most just commenting on, I guess, the realities of our food supply when it shrinks.
Most folks really aren't aware of just how interconnected our food suppliers are, so they don't realize how difficult it becomes if something IN that food supply can be bad for your health. It's just extremely difficult to avoid it, to an insane degree.
And when it comes to growing our food, unless one has been living solely off your own food for a while, there are difficulties there that most of us in first world countries haven't had to deal with for a generation or two.
A few years ago, I had some severe allergies hit out of nowhere. Doctors couldn't figure out what was safe for me and what wasn't, my throat was swelling up with nearly everything I ate. I literally was down to 5 foods plus salt, and all of them only worked from specific farmers, and a specific rancher.
And I got to experience the reality of how, well, delicate our food supply can be. Insects, weather, and disease can destroy a crop for a few weeks, or a season, or the whole year. If you have multiple farmers in multiple states providing food for a store, then it's not a problem and you don't really have to think about it, because your store will get the food from somewhere. But when you have just one farmer, or two? You simply don't have food any more.
It happened to me one year when we had a sudden hard freeze in my area. My garden veggies died, and all the local farmer's lost their crops and had nothing to offer for a few weeks. Some crops were simply wiped out and they had to wait until the next year to get them again.
It was a really painful lesson about what can happen when food choices becomes were very limited due to allergens, or potentially other restricted dietary choices.
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gregnixon426 wrote: »If you want to eat a vegan diet, you need vegan friends or plan to eat by yourself almost all of the time. As far as the money goes, the healthier you want to eat, the more expensive your food becomes.
Nah, I eat with non-vegans all the time. It's no big deal.
Who is it supposed to be a problem for, them or me?7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »...If I was in this situation, I would probably begin growing my own beans and drying them for year-round use or finding a local farmer who was willing to work with me on sourcing some beans/gluten-free grains that were processed in a way that avoided gluten contamination.
I would do this, even though it would be a giant pain, because it's an ethical thing for me. Without those ethical motivations, I can't see someone sticking to it. What I'm imagining on this diet is that I would spend a good amount of time locating food that fit into my goals, buying it in bulk, and then preserving it. It wouldn't be a meal plan that I could just go to the store and get for $34 a week.
Can't be done? I think it could. Would it require a lot of time and effort, especially since it has to be done cheaply? I think so.
I would say that this sort of thing - interacting with farmers to try and get safe sources of foods - absolutely can be done. I have had to do this myself a few times - both grow some foods, and try to find safe sources. And wow, yes, it is a lot of time and effort.
But although time and effort is intense for this (enough that if you have to work long enough hours, you may not be able to do this at all), the real issue ended up being cost and resources.
First, you have to live in an area that grows the food you want to grow/buy, or you have to interview farmers from all over the country to try and find it. Also, growing our own food takes a lot of land, so if one doesn't have that...out of luck, you know? And most of us with little money don't have a lot of land. Heck, even the only community garden plots around my area have maybe 1/4-1/2 the plot size needed to grow a year's worth of beans and nothing else, so that wouldn't work, either. And one would need to acquire the space to store a year's worth of beans/grains, etc... as well.
If one was to try to get food from a farmer, instead...
Assuming you have farmers that grow beans and/or grains in one's area, farmers at this point typically don't own their own harvesters, but either rent them from a central place, or sometimes a group of farmers will essentially joint-own one and they use them together, because the harvesters are so expensive. Which means that many grains and legumes are contaminated at harvest time from other farms, even if the farmer we deal with has a safe field of crops. Same issue with shipping trucks. So if you can pay them for an entire harvesting and shipping truck, and gas, just for themselves, they are likely not going to be able to eliminate that issue. And for getting foods processed, unless one can pay the farmer for special workers to come in and process something by hand, you are stuck with whatever processing company or machinery (often shared, again) the farmer has available.
While absolutely the farmers I have talked to have been almost universally awesome, they are typically not able, or willing, to make the necessary changes for fully allergen free beans/grains/etc... without someone paying them a lot more money to do so. Usually because it costs them a lot more money to do so.
The few cases I've found that have decided to try this on their own, as a selling point, are significantly more expensive. :-/
Yes, all your points are good ones. Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about sourcing food for people who have allergen concerns. I know I've been really lucky these aren't issues I've had to consider much so I appreciate you taking the time to give me more information on it.
Your comments didn't seem like a slam at all, you were responding to my thoughts on what I would do in a situation I'm not in with actual information you've learned from actually being in the situation. Real life experience is more relevant here.
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I haven’t read all the posts, so sorry if I’m repeating. Here are some ideas for eating vegan on a budget:
https://www.forksoverknives.com/healthy-food-on-tight-budget/#gs.3efdMPc
https://theplantphilosophy.com/plant-based-on-a-budget-challenge-25-week-meal-plan/
https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-recipes-dont-starve-until-payday/3 -
it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
When I was in Costa Rica, way south, 3 hours from the nearest city, we ate practically vegan, despite being omnivores. This was because we didn't have refrigeration, and rice and beans and veggies were way cheaper than meat.
I wish I could show your post to people in third world countries where meat is expensive and have them comment on how "expensive" veganism is.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.8 -
I'm not vegan anymore but still vego. It can be absolutely cheap if you don't go for the fancy imitation meats. Buy in bulk.. beans, TVP etc. Frozen veg is cheap. I generally spend less that some of my omnivorous friends. I can't believe the price of beef man.6
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kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
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janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
That reminded me of this beautiful picture of bean varieties I saw in my Mom's New Yorker:
Haven't had time to read the article yet: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/04/23/the-hunt-for-mexicos-heirloom-beans
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janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.
And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.
I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).
I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.
And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.
I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).
I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.
I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.
I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.
And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.
I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).
I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.
I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.
I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.
Yes, I agree with that too, but even canned beans compare favorably in cost to meat, IME.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »it bothers me that a lot of vegans refuse to accept the fact that their way of eating is a huge privilege. It's a luxury really. And it's one a lot of us truly can't afford. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow? If a poor person says they cant afford something, they mean it. End of story. It's not an invitation to try and prove them wrong or tell them what *you* would do if you were them. You're *not* them, so piss off.
I do not think a vegan diet can be done on a food stamp budget. Unless you honestly expect people to just eat canned beans and vegetables. I've been on food stamps, and even eating cheap, non-vegan staple foods, we'd still run out of food stamps by the end of the month and end up eating ketchup sandwiches for dinner. I would absolutely LOVE to see someone try to come up with a REALISTIC full day/week's menu for a vegan family of 4 on food stamps that requires minimal prep. And before anyone does, please realize that a fcking cup of lentil soup or whatever isn't enough for a full meal to most people, and most peoples' kids/family aren't gonna agree to eat such bland crap anyway.
And no, I don't expect people on a tight budget to eat canned beans - I expect them to eat dried beans, which are a fraction of the cost. There are endless variations of beans and methods to cook them.
It's confusing to me that so many people have the impression that a diet that includes a lot of beans is more monotonous than a diet that consists of mainly chicken and beef (I know there are more meats than that available, but many people who complain about beans only eat a limited number of animals).
Just as there are many different ways to season and serve chicken, there are many different ways to season and serve beans.
I get that some people may *prefer* chicken to beans, but that's a separate issue.
Totally agree, but I think it might be a matter of what you are used to. If you mostly cook dinners involving meat, at first you may not have a good sense of the options for vegan meals (or for beans specifically) and fall into a rut of the few things you know. Doing more creative things may seem difficult, just because they are new. But as with learning to cook (and cook creatively) in the first place, over time of course one adds more dishes to one's toolkit and gets more creative. Especially (IMO) if one explores dishes and ingredients from various other cultures.
And I think canned beans are cheap and a nice staple to have in that one issue I had when eating plant based was just that I felt that more planning ahead was needed -- again, because I had fewer off the cuff fast meals I was used to, and this despite eating vegetarian quite often. Being able to use canned beans as well as dried (and of course the wonderful convenience of dried lentils and dried and frozen peas) made life easier.
I do miss meat (especially fish) when I don't consume it for a while, but my experience is that plant based can be quite interesting and varied and has always been a cheaper way to eat, for me (although really things beyond eating plant based or not determine my food budget).
I haven't dealt with any significant allergy issues, however, so know nothing about that.
I agree, there is often a learning curve to cooking meatless meals.
I also agree about canned beans -- I use them frequently. But if hitting a budget was an absolute concern for someone, I would recommend using dried beans more often. The foods that make life easier often cost a bit more.
Yes, I agree with that too, but even canned beans compare favorably in cost to meat, IME.
That's a good point. If I was making a $35 a week meal plan, I'd use dried beans. But for people switching from a diet that has a lot of meat to more meatless/vegan styles of eating, even switching from many types of meat to canned beans is probably going to have a favorable impact on their food budget.2 -
I’m not understanding how vegan could be expensive. The biggest food group on my grocery budget is meat! Dairy is also pricey (ish) Beans, rice, veggies, bread, not so much.4
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I’m not understanding how vegan could be expensive. The biggest food group on my grocery budget is meat! Dairy is also pricey (ish) Beans, rice, veggies, bread, not so much.
Like any type of diet, veganism can be more expensive if you're wanting to buy more organic food, more pre-prepared food, and more artisan/fancy items.
If you are basing your diet on things like beans, rice, vegetables, and bread, it's pretty affordable.3 -
I think the problem is people aren't willing to put the effort in. They're not willing to shop around, look up recipes, cook meals from scratch, try new things. People want convenience, quantity and variety on a budget without having to do anything for themselves or put much effort into it and then complain that they've put on weight, or are unhealthy, or can't be vegan.
Just like most things in life you get out of it what you put in to it. If you want to be vegan you have to research it, work at it and I think most people who want to be vegan are willing to do so and people who come up with excuses aren't really that bothered. If you really want to be vegan on a budget you find a way and put the time and effort into it.4 -
I know this is based on the USA, however here in the U.K. on income support, I feed 2 adults & 1 child vegan and a husky on the minimum. Since going vegan we have saved money. We mostly live off in season home meals and do have some processed foods as treats. But we can now afford days out etc!3
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hey! Vegan student here:))) when I'm at home with my family, I eat more imitation meats ((still rarely because I would rather cook my own)) ... but when I'm at uni I can make delicious meals for really not a lot of money. I think it is possible, vegetables / legumes and pulses are all cheap ... only thing really is I would say I love a blender ((smoothies and sometimes sauces)) but tbh could live without one.
Probably could spend £20-£25 a week and eat really well1 -
Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?6
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Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?
Except that they are not. Example.
Whole chickens are $1.99/lb every day here. That one chicken can feed a family of 4 for few days if you know what to do with and how to use all the parts.
Broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower etc. are $1.99/lb when on sale here.
Okay, but lentils are between 99 cents and 1.50/lb and cook up to a lot more food than a pound of chicken does. A single pound of lentils makes 6-8 meals for me, as a hearty eater. Rice starts at 1.50/lb and can go as low as 30 or 40 cents/lb depending upon where you buy it. The chickpeas I'm cooking now which will make another 8 meals cost me $1.37. Personally I can do a lot better than the prices you're citing for broccoli and cauliflower, although not asparagus, but if price is an issue, frozen cauliflower is 84 cents for 12 ounces here. And it would be difficult for many people to eat half a pound of cauliflower at a sitting, where most people easily eat 8 ounces of chicken. At least if that's ALL they're eating, as you implied with your "can feed a family for a few days."
And the artificially low price of that chicken is paid for in brutal conditions for chickens and the cost of a life.3 -
But your "chicken" is going to be at LEAST 4 lbs, to give you (and let's be generous here because some of that is going to be bone) 10 meals of 6 oz each. So that will be a total of 8 dollars for your chicken. I can get 10 meals out of a pound and a half of lentils, so let's call it 2 bucks. That leaves me 6 dollars to "dress up" my lentils before I get equal with the cost of your chicken.
And part of the reason that your chicken doesn't need seasoning is because most of what is on the market is injected with salt solution to increase the weight, so you're not actually getting as much chicken as you think you are.
It's hard to take you seriously here because you compared the cheapest protein, whole chickens, to some of the most expensive vegetable foods, asparagus as though they were equivalents.10 -
nickssweetheart wrote: »Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?
Except that they are not. Example.
Whole chickens are $1.99/lb every day here. That one chicken can feed a family of 4 for few days if you know what to do with and how to use all the parts.
Broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower etc. are $1.99/lb when on sale here.
Okay, but lentils are between 99 cents and 1.50/lb and cook up to a lot more food than a pound of chicken does. A single pound of lentils makes 6-8 meals for me, as a hearty eater. Rice starts at 1.50/lb and can go as low as 30 or 40 cents/lb depending upon where you buy it. The chickpeas I'm cooking now which will make another 8 meals cost me $1.37. Personally I can do a lot better than the prices you're citing for broccoli and cauliflower, although not asparagus, but if price is an issue, frozen cauliflower is 84 cents for 12 ounces here. And it would be difficult for many people to eat half a pound of cauliflower at a sitting, where most people easily eat 8 ounces of chicken. At least if that's ALL they're eating, as you implied with your "can feed a family for a few days."
And the artificially low price of that chicken is paid for in brutal conditions for chickens and the cost of a life.
Lentils, rice etc. without adding "extra" are not anyone with a choice would want to eat.
Chicken, bone in and skin on is delish on its own baked or grilled.
Add some spices and maybe some affordable vegetables like carrots or cabbage and lentils and rice is a dish I choose to eat quite often.
I'm not saying it is to everyone's taste, but even when I ate meat I preferred a dinner of beans and rice to a dinner of just meat.3 -
Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?
Except that they are not. Example.
Whole chickens are $1.99/lb every day here. That one chicken can feed a family of 4 for few days if you know what to do with and how to use all the parts.
Broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower etc. are $1.99/lb when on sale here.
This is interesting.
Let's start with Broccoli, Asparagus, cauliflower etc not being a fair comparison. Different food, different caloric value, plus, the average family, eats those as garnishments, so these are most likely part of your meal regardless of it containing chicken.
So, let's do a little math.
A chicken weighs in avg 2 lbs with bones when you do your own killing.
In the supermarket, it is stuffed with water, so it weighs a little more.
In Average, 62% of the chicken is meat, the remaining 48% is bone and cartilage, which would be enough for 1 meal if eaten standalone by a family of 4.
Since you make it last "for days", it is safe to say that you consume it in small bits with other garnishments.
On a 2lbs chicken, you pay $4. 62% is meat, so about 1.24lbs or 19.84oz. (That's before cooking as we all know that cooking dehydrates the meat and it reduces in both size and weight - But for the sake of argument, I'll keep the numbers as they are)
Now if you eat chicken with lunch and dinner, to make it last for more than one day, you would have to eat less than 2 oz, per person, per meal. Double that if you eat it at dinner only.
When I used to eat meat, a whole chicken would last a meal, maybe 2 on a family of 3. so your family is definitely more disciplined than mine.
Now, unless you are consuming vegan meals outside of lunch and dinner, we can safely assume that you also buy cream cheese, butter, yogurt, milk, lunch meats, fish etc; And when comparing your lifestyle with a vegan lifestyle, you must take all of that in consideration.
Legumes and grains, like beans, chickpeas, lentils etc, increase in weight when cooked between 72% and 200%. So 1 lbs of a particular grain or legume will mean about 1.72 to 3 lbs after cooked.
Our friend @nickssweetheart, has graciously shared her shopping list with us, demonstrating the following:
These are the proteins:
1 lb lentils @ 1.54 each = 1.54
1 lb chickpeas @ 1.37 = 1.37
1 lb navy beans @ 1.37 = 1.37
1 block tofu = 1.84
These are garnishments, which you most likely already buy given that no family of 4 would survives while eating 4oz of chicken a day.
2 lbs pasta = 1.97
10 lbs potatoes =4.94
5 lbs carrots @ 3.22 = 3.22
1 cabbage = 1.74
2 bags froz spinach @ .86 =1.72
1 bags froz broccoli @ .86 = .86
4 lemons @ .50 =2.00
7 bananas @ .18 =1.26
42 oz oatmeal @ 2.48 =2.48
2 can diced tomatoes@ .72 =1.54
1 can tomato paste @ .46 = .46
1 jar peanut butter @ 2.18 = 2.18
1 head garlic = .46
3 lbs onions =2.14
Now, considering beans, lentils and other legumes will, in avg, double in weight when cooked, it is very easy to find out which one is more cost effective.
Here's the math:
- 2lbs whole chicken / $4 = 1.24lbs in actual meat. (In Avg)
- 2lbs lentils / $3.08 = 4lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs chickpeas / $2.74 = 6lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs navy beans / $2.74 = 5lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs Tofu (Organic) / $8 = same weight after cooked, which takes me back to my original post that substitutes cost too much.
So, in conclusion, animal based products may be consumed by preference, taste, convenience or whatever other reasoning you can find, except price.5 -
Meat and fish are expensive. How would not buying them be more expensive?
Except that they are not. Example.
Whole chickens are $1.99/lb every day here. That one chicken can feed a family of 4 for few days if you know what to do with and how to use all the parts.
Broccoli, asparagus, cauliflower etc. are $1.99/lb when on sale here.
This is interesting.
Let's start with Broccoli, Asparagus, cauliflower etc not being a fair comparison. Different food, different caloric value, plus, the average family, eats those as garnishments, so these are most likely part of your meal regardless of it containing chicken.
So, let's do a little math.
A chicken weighs in avg 2 lbs with bones when you do your own killing.
In the supermarket, it is stuffed with water, so it weighs a little more.
In Average, 62% of the chicken is meat, the remaining 48% is bone and cartilage, which would be enough for 1 meal if eaten standalone by a family of 4.
Since you make it last "for days", it is safe to say that you consume it in small bits with other garnishments.
On a 2lbs chicken, you pay $4. 62% is meat, so about 1.24lbs or 19.84oz. (That's before cooking as we all know that cooking dehydrates the meat and it reduces in both size and weight - But for the sake of argument, I'll keep the numbers as they are)
Now if you eat chicken with lunch and dinner, to make it last for more than one day, you would have to eat less than 2 oz, per person, per meal. Double that if you eat it at dinner only.
When I used to eat meat, a whole chicken would last a meal, maybe 2 on a family of 3. so your family is definitely more disciplined than mine.
Now, unless you are consuming vegan meals outside of lunch and dinner, we can safely assume that you also buy cream cheese, butter, yogurt, milk, lunch meats, fish etc; And when comparing your lifestyle with a vegan lifestyle, you must take all of that in consideration.
Legumes and grains, like beans, chickpeas, lentils etc, increase in weight when cooked between 72% and 200%. So 1 lbs of a particular grain or legume will mean about 1.72 to 3 lbs after cooked.
Our friend @nickssweetheart, has graciously shared her shopping list with us, demonstrating the following:
These are the proteins:
1 lb lentils @ 1.54 each = 1.54
1 lb chickpeas @ 1.37 = 1.37
1 lb navy beans @ 1.37 = 1.37
1 block tofu = 1.84
These are garnishments, which you most likely already buy given that no family of 4 would survives while eating 4oz of chicken a day.
2 lbs pasta = 1.97
10 lbs potatoes =4.94
5 lbs carrots @ 3.22 = 3.22
1 cabbage = 1.74
2 bags froz spinach @ .86 =1.72
1 bags froz broccoli @ .86 = .86
4 lemons @ .50 =2.00
7 bananas @ .18 =1.26
42 oz oatmeal @ 2.48 =2.48
2 can diced tomatoes@ .72 =1.54
1 can tomato paste @ .46 = .46
1 jar peanut butter @ 2.18 = 2.18
1 head garlic = .46
3 lbs onions =2.14
Now, considering beans, lentils and other legumes will, in avg, double in weight when cooked, it is very easy to find out which one is more cost effective.
Here's the math:
- 2lbs whole chicken / $4 = 1.24lbs in actual meat. (In Avg)
- 2lbs lentils / $3.08 = 4lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs chickpeas / $2.74 = 6lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs navy beans / $2.74 = 5lbs after cooked. (In Avg)
- 2 lbs Tofu (Organic) / $8 = same weight after cooked, which takes me back to my original post that substitutes cost too much.
So, in conclusion, animal based products may be consumed by preference, taste, convenience or whatever other reasoning you can find, except price.
Extremely biased comparison but good one none the less. You also forgot that there is "stuff" in meat that no veggie or legume will give you. Now start adding in your pills.
Also, I know that for me meat is simply more satisfying as a protein and fat source than legumes and oils.
But the OP topic was for veganism being expensive. So in short, nope, its not. If you are smart about it neither is eating meat. Just dont fall for organic, GMO etc. garbage.
The only supplement required for vegans is B12. It's incredibly cheap to supplement.11 -
My daughter is allergic to milk and eggs. While 99% of our desserts and treats are home-made, the moment I need a break or I need something in a pinch or we want something special (the way any kid would):
- a vegan cupcake from a vegan bakery is $6
- A vegan chocolate cake is $20 for a 200 g package
- A frozen vegan pizza is $10
- 500 ml of vegan ice cream is $7
- Vanilla soft serve ice cream cone in a vegan dessert place is $8
Are any of the above necessities? No. Are any of them frequent purchases? No. But you'd be hard pressed to go through life while making everything from scratch or thinking you're going to be loading up your carts with veggies and lentils every single week. Good luck having kids and never stepping into a bakery or never purchasing treats.
Yes, having lived the lifestyle, being vegan is more expensive.
3 -
walking2running wrote: »My daughter is allergic to milk and eggs. While 99% of our desserts and treats are home-made, the moment I need a break or I need something in a pinch or we want something special (the way any kid would):
- a vegan cupcake from a vegan bakery is $6
- A vegan chocolate cake is $20 for a 200 g package
- A frozen vegan pizza is $10
- 500 ml of vegan ice cream is $7
- Vanilla soft serve ice cream cone in a vegan dessert place is $8
Are any of the above necessities? No. Are any of them frequent purchases? No. But you'd be hard pressed to go through life while making everything from scratch or thinking you're going to be loading up your carts with veggies and lentils every single week. Good luck having kids and never stepping into a bakery or never purchasing treats.
Yes, having lived the lifestyle, being vegan is more expensive.
Which is why vegans on a budget typically buy "accidentally vegan" treats when they're not wanting to cook everything from scratch or want to buy things besides besides vegetables and lentils. There are lots of options for quick eats and treats beyond fancy vegan bakeries or pizzas specifically marketed to vegans.
Some of the stuff I buy includes candy like Swedish Fish, pre-made puff pastry (easy to turn into treats with a savory filling or jam), Duncan Hines cake mixes (not all are vegan, some of them are), frozen Tater Tots/french fries, Cap'n Crunch, Oreos, Spicy Sweet Chili Doritos, a huge array of potato chips, and stuff from Taco Bell like bean burritos with no cheese and Cinnamon Twists. All of this stuff is widely available, no trip to special grocery stores or bakeries necessary.
(I understand that allergies may preclude eating some of those foods due to cross-contamination, but we're talking about veganism here).
The choice to pay $20 for a cake is just that -- a choice. It isn't required for anyone.
11 -
It's always *possible* on a tight budget (and I'm talking poverty level tight), I just don't know how flavorful or varied it'd be in the long-term. No offense to any vegans here, clearly different strokes for different folks, but most vegan recipes and restaurants I've tried are bland or have very bizarre flavor combinations. You would also have to pay attention to if you are getting all the nutrients you need in sufficient quantities, but that is the case even if you have money.
I find being vegetarian fairly easy, but veganism is where it starts getting kind of difficult to me because the flavor profiles of dishes I could realistically cook at home every day would become difficult to manage. In my experience, there are just not many reasonably quick (<2 hrs preparation/cook time) and delicious recipes that don't at least contain some kind of dairy product or egg. There are decent vegan substitutes for these (variety of less common fats and milks), but these are not exactly cheap in my neck of the woods. Moreover, it seems like a lot of the vegan recipes I find that seem cheap and decent are very carb-heavy with little protein. I do better on a protein-heavy diet, and there are not many vegan sources of protein that are palatable to me. If they are palatable to me, probably not so much that I'd want to eat them day after day. I couldn't do lentils and beans every day for the rest of my life.
I would really need to have a lot of ethical motivation to get over the flavor and variety hurdle.2 -
walking2running wrote: »My daughter is allergic to milk and eggs. While 99% of our desserts and treats are home-made, the moment I need a break or I need something in a pinch or we want something special (the way any kid would):
- a vegan cupcake from a vegan bakery is $6
- A vegan chocolate cake is $20 for a 200 g package
- A frozen vegan pizza is $10
- 500 ml of vegan ice cream is $7
- Vanilla soft serve ice cream cone in a vegan dessert place is $8
Are any of the above necessities? No. Are any of them frequent purchases? No. But you'd be hard pressed to go through life while making everything from scratch or thinking you're going to be loading up your carts with veggies and lentils every single week. Good luck having kids and never stepping into a bakery or never purchasing treats.
Yes, having lived the lifestyle, being vegan is more expensive.
It sounds as though you're still eating meat though? Correct me if I'm wrong. The money I save on chickpeas instead of chicken on an ongoing basis can certainly cover the cost difference in an occasional vegan cupcake.
Also, there are alternatives to just buying "replacements", although I admit to indulging in the occasional Ben and Jerry's or So Delicious ice cream treat. For example, Outshine fruit bars are pretty cost effective at WalMart and vegan and give a nice frozen treat experience. I can get a Sprouts vegan superfoods muffin at 4.49 for 4 or a little over a dollar a muffin, the same price as a conventional muffin.
I will not argue that vegan pre-made frozen foods are more expensive. They definitely are. But 1) hopefully pre-made frozen foods aren't forming the largest part of anyone's diet and 2) if we're talking about people on a really tight budget, which was the premise of the thread, they're not buying the 4 dollar conventional cupcake at a bakery either!
And my B-12 supplement is 3 dollars for a half year's supply.
Edit: looks like I'm too slow...
3 -
I don't see how price itself can be in question when vegetables, grains and legumes are the cheapest foods there are. Nutrition wouldn't be difficult to achieve either considering you can practically live on potatoes alone even before you throw in the incredible variety of other cheap foods there.
The key would just be actually liking normal, natural vegan foods, for one. And understanding how to season food, for another. Not 'food vegans can't have: but vegan so they can pretend!' but just plain old vegetables with herbs and spices, the only things on this planet that have actual variety in flavor.
Just reading the front page I saw lots of questionable assumptions too, like the claim a diet plan for one adult is not a legitimate answer for a person who specifically asked for a diet plan for one adult. (Which ignored the fact that someone with kids would have a much larger budget than the example given, if we're talking about food stamps...)
'Sustainable' is another matter, but that's all down to an individual's willpower and willingness to live with the choices they've made. And again, how good of a cook they are. There are a billion different ways to serve up most staple foods.
I'm not a vegan but I could easily and happily be a vegetarian if all the usual carb laden stuff didn't effect me the way it did. If I could trade meat for the ability to eat rice every day I'd do it it a heartbeat and have it every day. Rice beans and tortillas or cornbread are practically what I was raised on and it's something I find myself missing now that I can have all the other foods I want.
0 -
walking2running wrote: »My daughter is allergic to milk and eggs. While 99% of our desserts and treats are home-made, the moment I need a break or I need something in a pinch or we want something special (the way any kid would):
- a vegan cupcake from a vegan bakery is $6
- A vegan chocolate cake is $20 for a 200 g package
- A frozen vegan pizza is $10
- 500 ml of vegan ice cream is $7
- Vanilla soft serve ice cream cone in a vegan dessert place is $8
Are any of the above necessities? No. Are any of them frequent purchases? No. But you'd be hard pressed to go through life while making everything from scratch or thinking you're going to be loading up your carts with veggies and lentils every single week. Good luck having kids and never stepping into a bakery or never purchasing treats.
Yes, having lived the lifestyle, being vegan is more expensive.
I can make 24 delicious vegan muffins in less than an hour including cleanup for less than $6 and they freeze well.
Spending $6 for one muffin is probably not a choice someone on a budget would make often.7 -
ThereAreManyNames wrote: »I don't see how price itself can be in question when vegetables, grains and legumes are the cheapest foods there are. Nutrition wouldn't be difficult to achieve either considering you can practically live on potatoes alone even before you throw in the incredible variety of other cheap foods there.
The key would just be actually liking normal, natural vegan foods, for one. And understanding how to season food, for another. Not 'food vegans can't have: but vegan so they can pretend!' but just plain old vegetables with herbs and spices, the only things on this planet that have actual variety in flavor.
Just reading the front page I saw lots of questionable assumptions too, like the claim a diet plan for one adult is not a legitimate answer for a person who specifically asked for a diet plan for one adult. (Which ignored the fact that someone with kids would have a much larger budget than the example given, if we're talking about food stamps...)
'Sustainable' is another matter, but that's all down to an individual's willpower and willingness to live with the choices they've made. And again, how good of a cook they are. There are a billion different ways to serve up most staple foods.
I'm not a vegan but I could easily and happily be a vegetarian if all the usual carb laden stuff didn't effect me the way it did. If I could trade meat for the ability to eat rice every day I'd do it it a heartbeat and have it every day. Rice beans and tortillas or cornbread are practically what I was raised on and it's something I find myself missing now that I can have all the other foods I want.
Agreed, fruits, veggies, grains, legumes, etc. are way cheaper than 'food vegans can't have: but vegan so they can pretend!'
I've heard raves about "nice cream" made from frozen bananas. Certainly cheaper than packaged vegan ice cream.1
This discussion has been closed.
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