Recovering Carbaholic [Keto]
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I think you mentioned something that's key here.
In order for me to keto, I'd have to cut my vegetable consumption.
I'm always surprised by the claims of how many veggies keto eaters are consuming because of this.
I'm not bragging or anything, it's just that I'm a volume eater, so padding my meals with a LOT of vegetables is sort of what I do to feel satiated.
At any rate, it's the comparative words used about quantity that always give me pause, because as you said, it does give rise to the question of the role of vegetables and fruits in their previous diets.
I have a pretty straight forward "diet". I eat yogurt, cottage cheese, eggs, egg whites, vegetables, fruit, tubers, and whole grains. My "treat" foods? Mostly I stick with having sugar free jelly on rice cakes.
Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. My main point was about the vegetable consumption, and um, yeah. I'd have to cut it way back to eat keto.1 -
kommodevaran wrote: »What is carbaholism? Is it a thing?
If there is. I’m one of them, and plan on keeping it that way.
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Amen to that!1
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lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.6 -
Keto over here and I eat at least half a plate of veggies with dinner and lunch and sometimes breakfast. When you count net carbs, you tend to gravitate towards big salads with lean protein. I always have loved salads and veggies. Now I eat lower carb veggies than I did before—that’s the only difference2
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FlyingMolly wrote: »I’ve gone 25 years bingeing on a daily basis, or close. More recently, I’ve gone 5.5 months without a single unplanned “treat.” I have no guilt or shame related to eating anymore, and I’ve lost 25 pounds.
You can nitpick my logic all you want, but results talk. I take a weekend off once a month or so around holidays and major events, to make life easier and to make sure I don’t begin to feel deprived. As I said, by the end of each one it’s a relief to return to keto, which I probably would’ve just done decades ago and avoided all this angst if I'd known about it back then.
Congrats on your weight loss progress and getting control. I am sure it is a relief.
I haven't nitpicked your logic. I asked a simple question about trying a higher percentage. You claimed trying it might be scary and then proceeded to say you had experience being off Keto altogether. I don't understand, then, why trying a higher percentage would be scary if you know you can resume your 10 percent without problems.
You seem like a reasonable person which is why I asked you. If you wish to follow the Keto macros for the rest of your life without question that is your choice.
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FlyingMolly wrote: »I’ve gone 25 years bingeing on a daily basis, or close. More recently, I’ve gone 5.5 months without a single unplanned “treat.” I have no guilt or shame related to eating anymore, and I’ve lost 25 pounds.
You can nitpick my logic all you want, but results talk. I take a weekend off once a month or so around holidays and major events, to make life easier and to make sure I don’t begin to feel deprived. As I said, by the end of each one it’s a relief to return to keto, which I probably would’ve just done decades ago and avoided all this angst if I'd known about it back then.
Congrats on your weight loss progress and getting control. I am sure it is a relief.
I haven't nitpicked your logic. I asked a simple question about trying a higher percentage. You claimed trying it might be scary and then proceeded to say you had experience being off Keto altogether. I don't understand, then, why trying a higher percentage would be scary if you know you can resume your 10 percent without problems.
You seem like a reasonable person which is why I asked you. If you wish to follow the Keto macros for the rest of your life without question that is your choice.
I didn’t say it might be scary; I said there was no advantage. I’m quite content at 10% with no nutritional concerns. Somewhere above 10% is the ceiling I break through to go back to my “normal,” but I’m not motivated to nail down exactly how far above, because this is working.
I couldn’t fit a whole slice of cake into 15 or 20% (especially since eating a slice of cake makes me want another slice of cake more than just about anything in the world, including fitting into my cute new jeans). I CAN fit a BITE of cake into 10%.
There’s obviously middle ground there, but I don’t “need” half a piece of cake, know what I mean? Sure, of course, I could hypothetically use those extra carbs for more fruit, but as it is I have carbs I use on dark chocolate now and then. So I must not be hard up for extra, and there’s no upside to rocking the boat.3 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.8 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »I didn’t say it might be scary; I said there was no advantage. I’m quite content at 10% with no nutritional concerns. Somewhere above 10% is the ceiling I break through to go back to my “normal,” but I’m not motivated to nail down exactly how far above, because this is working.
I couldn’t fit a whole slice of cake into 15 or 20% (especially since eating a slice of cake makes me want another slice of cake more than just about anything in the world, including fitting into my cute new jeans). I CAN fit a BITE of cake into 10%.
There’s obviously middle ground there, but I don’t “need” half a piece of cake, know what I mean? Sure, of course, I could hypothetically use those extra carbs for more fruit, but as it is I have carbs I use on dark chocolate now and then. So I must not be hard up for extra, and there’s no upside to rocking the boat.
Even if it planned to stick to 10 percent I would still want to know if I could do 20+ without problems. Knowledge of my own boundaries is all the upside I would need. It would give me confidence in food situations that are outside my control. But if you are happy don't bother.
Personally I hate cake so I wouldn't even want the bite.
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Running_and_Coffee wrote: »Keto over here and I eat at least half a plate of veggies with dinner and lunch and sometimes breakfast. When you count net carbs, you tend to gravitate towards big salads with lean protein. I always have loved salads and veggies. Now I eat lower carb veggies than I did before—that’s the only difference
I looked at your diary, and I'd still have to cut my produce intake to match yours. It's the fat intake that does it. My fat intake is about half yours. Protein intake is about the same, though.
And it's funny, I don't even think, compared to some of the other posters on these boards whose veggie intakes I know, that I eat loads and loads of veggies, even though I know I eat a lot. But this is all relative, it seems.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot."
I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.0 -
I couldn't do keto for the reason others have mentioned, not enough fruit and vegetables for my liking. There is simply no way I want to reduce my intake of these two and no way I want to restrict which fruit and vegetables I eat. I love variety and I love volume. I can easily eat a kilo of vegetables in a day. I also love my bowl of porridge in the morning as it is so filling and keeps me going until lunch.
If keto works for you and it is something you can maintain long term, brilliant! If another form of healthy eating, where all of your nutritional needs are being met achieves the same goal, fantastic. One isn't better than the other, just different.
Just remember that we are in this journey together despite the path we take to get to the finish line.
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FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot." I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross 3 -
Fellow carb-lover here... I tried keto for a year but ended up returning to carbs. Lost all the weight with calorie counting alone and it's been much more sustainable. I don't think I could realistically stick to a diet that forbids fruit, potatoes, beans, lentils, pasta, rice, bread... I prefer enjoying all of them in moderation.
Me too. I could not go keto, it's just not for me and protein and fat just don't keep me as full as carbs.1 -
The group quoted in the first few posts is a good place to go if you are looking for info or support rather than a debate.
Specific foods as an addiction is a hot debate topic since it has not been proven or accepted in medical circles. I find carbs, especially sugary or refined carbs, to be addictive-like. They lead to wanting more, increase my appetite and cravings, and tend to result in weight gain.
I've been Keto for most of three years. I started at about 20 g total a day. It worked great. My health improved and I lost weight fairly easily. A couple of years in, I increased carbs. Carbs taste good so I tried it. I gained weight, my health suffered, and my hunger grew along with the return of my reactive hypoglycaemia.
I now know my carb ceiling is about 30g. Above that, eating well gets hard. Not worth it.
I treat carbs like an addiction. I avoid them as much as possible. Like any addictive vice, we don't need it to live a healthy life even though many can fit it into their lives with moderation. I just know that I can't so I basically abstain.3 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »Keto over here and I eat at least half a plate of veggies with dinner and lunch and sometimes breakfast. When you count net carbs, you tend to gravitate towards big salads with lean protein. I always have loved salads and veggies. Now I eat lower carb veggies than I did before—that’s the only difference
I looked at your diary, and I'd still have to cut my produce intake to match yours. It's the fat intake that does it. My fat intake is about half yours. Protein intake is about the same, though.
And it's funny, I don't even think, compared to some of the other posters on these boards whose veggie intakes I know, that I eat loads and loads of veggies, even though I know I eat a lot. But this is all relative, it seems.
So, I could eat more vegetables if I wanted to, because vegetables generally have fiber--I have never worried about going over on carbs because of vegetable intake.
I have done a pretty amazing job of maintaining a healthy weight in my adult lifetime via a variety of strategies--Weight Watchers, calorie counting, 21 Day Fix, South Beach, all done to shave off a few extra pounds I wanted to lose, then maintain--and I ate around the same amount of veggies with all of those programs then as I do now. What's changed has been the fat has gone up with keto, and the carbs have gone down. I generally need to stay under 1400 calories a day (as a frequent exerciser) to lose, regardless of plan. I like keto not because it's "magic" or works differently than any other plan, but because the fat IS more satiating. For me. And that helps me stay on point.3 -
Running_and_Coffee wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »Keto over here and I eat at least half a plate of veggies with dinner and lunch and sometimes breakfast. When you count net carbs, you tend to gravitate towards big salads with lean protein. I always have loved salads and veggies. Now I eat lower carb veggies than I did before—that’s the only difference
I looked at your diary, and I'd still have to cut my produce intake to match yours. It's the fat intake that does it. My fat intake is about half yours. Protein intake is about the same, though.
And it's funny, I don't even think, compared to some of the other posters on these boards whose veggie intakes I know, that I eat loads and loads of veggies, even though I know I eat a lot. But this is all relative, it seems.
So, I could eat more vegetables if I wanted to, because vegetables generally have fiber--I have never worried about going over on carbs because of vegetable intake.
I have done a pretty amazing job of maintaining a healthy weight in my adult lifetime via a variety of strategies--Weight Watchers, calorie counting, 21 Day Fix, South Beach, all done to shave off a few extra pounds I wanted to lose, then maintain--and I ate around the same amount of veggies with all of those programs then as I do now. What's changed has been the fat has gone up with keto, and the carbs have gone down. I generally need to stay under 1400 calories a day (as a frequent exerciser) to lose, regardless of plan. I like keto not because it's "magic" or works differently than any other plan, but because the fat IS more satiating. For me. And that helps me stay on point.
Yeah, satiety is really key.
I'm one who's satiated by a mix of macros, and it's one of the reasons keto wouldn't work for me. I don't find fat particularly satiating (and even if I did, I have familial hypercholesterolemia). I find that I need some fat to feel satiated, but not too much or I have digestive issues.
But back to my main point, one of the reasons I eat so much produce (including starchy vegetables) is that I find it very satiating.
It's great that more people are realizing that different ways of eating work best for different people in this regard.2 -
Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).1
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gemdiver00 wrote: »Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).
It's impossible for a human to give up protein and fat -- they're essential macronutrients. It makes as much sense as someone declaring they're going to give up oxygen.12 -
gemdiver00 wrote: »Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).
I don't know why people need to give up anything...there's this old fashioned thing that's not very sexy or anything, but it's called a balanced and varied diet.
I eat very little in the way of refined carbs/sugar. Most of my carbs are from steel cut oats, beans, lentils, root vegetables, vegetables, and fruit...and no...I'm not giving them up because I have zero reason to. I eat .06-.08 grams of protein per day and around .3-.4 grams of fat per Lb of body weight.
It's a pretty balanced and nutritious diet.
13 -
gemdiver00 wrote: »Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).
How about this?: I haven't given up, nor will I give up, anything. It's not necessary for a balanced, nutritious diet, it's not necessary for health and it's not necessary for weight loss. Consider context and dosage within your diet and apply a little common sense, that's all that is necessary.4 -
Specific foods as an addiction is a hot debate topic since it has not been proven or accepted in medical circles. I find carbs, especially sugary or refined carbs, to be addictive-like. They lead to wanting more, increase my appetite and cravings, and tend to result in weight gain.
Do you crave foods you don't like the taste of, though, which would be a key benchmark for carb addiction being real? If you're only craving hyper-palatable foods that have some carbs in them, that's not really a carb addiction.10 -
Keto is for people who dont like fuzzy peaches.. how can you not like fuzzy peaches?!?10
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Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Keto is for people who dont like fuzzy peaches.. how can you not like fuzzy peaches?!?
Oh for crying out loud—a peach has what, 10 net carbs? 12? You could eat a fuzzy peach every day and stay in ketosis if you wanted.
A peach, as many leafy greens as you can handle, maybe an avocado, some meat/fish/eggs/nuts, then do it again.
I made an entire meal out of fruit today and am so endlessly annoyed by this sort of misinformation.13 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
I would aim for 50 g total, with the idea of at least no more than 35 g net (even at that level I got constantly told I wasn't doing it right, too high, you should aim for less than 20 g net and cheer on people who got less than 20 g total as being exemplary -- look at many of the challenges here (NOT the low carb group, where people aren't so pushy about lower always being better).
So looking at a representative day from last year, I'd eat an omelet with feta and vegetables for breakfast (this day had chard, leeks, and asparagus) and end up with 19 g carbs, 14 net.
Then for lunch I'd have some pork shoulder with collards and turnip greens and some brussels on the side (or something similar, meat + veg, leafy greens at all meals), plus some almonds and get 21 g carbs, 11 net (so 40 g carbs, 25 g net so far for the day). (Lunches were more often salad with protein, but this is a good example and the salads would be even higher carb.)
Then for dinner I had roasted chicken with more turnip greens, half an avocado, and green beans. 21 g carbs, 15 g net. (So now 61 g carbs, 40 net -- above my goal.)
For dessert that day I had some cheese, so no carbs. Had I added, say, 2 clementines, I add 18 g of carbs, 15 net. Even 80 g of blueberries (a single serving) = 12 g of carbs, 10 net. If I'd consumed the blueberries (which is a single serving, again), I'd have been at 73 g carbs, 50 net, and this on a day where I hadn't had more than a serving of nuts and no greek yogurt.
And yes, I could have been more restrictive on the particular vegetables I ate, but I was eating lots of leafy greens that day and a diet that requires me to worry that brussels have too many carbs is unacceptable to me, so I ate the same variety of veg (different ones on different days) as normal. But I had to cut back on the veg (this day was a fewer veg than I normally eat, although certainly a reasonable amount), and could not fit in fruit (other than avocado), without cutting back on veg (or cutting back on veg some and cutting out the nuts), both of which I think are important.
So that's why I found fruit was impossible.
Not to mention that when I talk about summer fruit, I mean something like being able to enjoy a fresh local peach and not worry that it has 15 net carbs (or whatever) or think I should only eat half of a peach. Sure, I could have eaten 5 blueberries a day if I'd wanted to fit them in, but eh.
Again, I think keto is a perfectly good choice for many people, but it's simply true that it makes it extremely difficult to eat fruit (as well as some other nutrient dense foods) and for some of us it means we have to cut back on or worry more than we like about not going over from veg, which I found irritating and pointless when instead I can just focus on eating a nutrient dense diet (which for me is naturally kind of low carb due to food preferences).5 -
gemdiver00 wrote: »Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).
No one recommends that you give up protein or fat. Even when the low fat diet was trendy (which it is certainly not now), no one said "give up" fat. Well, some said to go super low and still do (Ornish) but usually that's for people with health issues, and it's usually combined with things that the average person finds more difficult (giving up all animal products). But in fact I know vegans here and off MFP who say they couldn't do low fat and dislike the low fat models of plant-based that are sometimes recommended within the WFPB world. So I guess I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
Personally I'd hate doing low fat more than I would dislike low carb (I naturally eat kind of low carb due to preferences, as I said in my last post).0 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Keto is for people who dont like fuzzy peaches.. how can you not like fuzzy peaches?!?
Oh for crying out loud—a peach has what, 10 net carbs? 12? You could eat a fuzzy peach every day and stay in ketosis if you wanted.
A peach, as many leafy greens as you can handle, maybe an avocado, some meat/fish/eggs/nuts, then do it again.
I made an entire meal out of fruit today and am so endlessly annoyed by this sort of misinformation.
Google fuzzy peaches candy xD2 -
Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Keto is for people who dont like fuzzy peaches.. how can you not like fuzzy peaches?!?
Oh for crying out loud—a peach has what, 10 net carbs? 12? You could eat a fuzzy peach every day and stay in ketosis if you wanted.
A peach, as many leafy greens as you can handle, maybe an avocado, some meat/fish/eggs/nuts, then do it again.
I made an entire meal out of fruit today and am so endlessly annoyed by this sort of misinformation.
Google fuzzy peaches candy xD
My bad. Yeah, candy isn’t realistically going to happen that often. You actually COULD eat a fuzzy peach candy or two with no problems, but it’d be taking up carb space from things with actual nutrients and I don’t see it being a regular thing.
I disagree, though, that keto is for people who don’t like them. If you don’t like candy (or pasta or potatoes or whatever), keto probably doesn’t have that much to offer you. I’m doing it because I like that stuff way too much, and I’ve never managed to moderate my enjoyment of them. So I just say no, and I expected that to be intolerable (the way moderation is for me), but it turns out it’s totally fine.3 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Keto is for people who dont like fuzzy peaches.. how can you not like fuzzy peaches?!?
Oh for crying out loud—a peach has what, 10 net carbs? 12? You could eat a fuzzy peach every day and stay in ketosis if you wanted.
A peach, as many leafy greens as you can handle, maybe an avocado, some meat/fish/eggs/nuts, then do it again.
I made an entire meal out of fruit today and am so endlessly annoyed by this sort of misinformation.
Google fuzzy peaches candy xD
My bad. Yeah, candy isn’t realistically going to happen that often. You actually COULD eat a fuzzy peach candy or two with no problems, but it’d be taking up carb space from things with actual nutrients and I don’t see it being a regular thing.
I disagree, though, that keto is for people who don’t like them. If you don’t like candy (or pasta or potatoes or whatever), keto probably doesn’t have that much to offer you. I’m doing it because I like that stuff way too much, and I’ve never managed to moderate my enjoyment of them. So I just say no, and I expected that to be intolerable (the way moderation is for me), but it turns out it’s totally fine.
I don't really understand what you mean here. I get that you're saying that for people who find carbs hard to moderate, keto can be a way to avoid the problem all together. But keto has plenty to offer those who are not drawn to carbs - those people would find the food choices satiating and limiting carbs not a hardship.
Note: I do not do keto but have no issues with it as a way of eating as long as the person is aware that it's a choice not a requirement for weight loss, and they are not white-knuckling their way through meals because the food isn't satisfying for them.
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