Recovering Carbaholic [Keto]
Replies
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FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
… I need to try this. Why haven't I heard of this?
Yeah, my breakfast is either full-fat greek yogurt with either mixed berries, apple sauce, nuts and honey or cherries. I almost always have cherry tomatoes and coleslaw with lunch, and I always have broccoli/asparagus/mushrooms/cabbage/courgette (zucchini)/green beans/spinach etc etc ETC with my evening meal.
Boo hoo I can't have potato or carrots, there are so many other types of veg you can have, why stick to possibly the blandest combination?
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gemdiver00 wrote: »Reading through these posts I’ve come to the realization that you hardly hear people say “I’m not giving up protein!” or “I’m not giving up fat!” It’s always “I’m not giving up carbs!” (Not carbs from veggies and fruits but from refined carbs/sugars).
Because protein and fat are vital to bodily health. Carbs depends on your lifestyle, hobbies and satiety1 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
… I need to try this. Why haven't I heard of this?
Yeah, my breakfast is either full-fat greek yogurt with either mixed berries, apple sauce, nuts and honey or cherries. I almost always have cherry tomatoes and coleslaw with lunch, and I always have broccoli/asparagus/mushrooms/cabbage/courgette (zucchini)/green beans/spinach etc etc ETC with my evening meal.
Boo hoo I can't have potato or carrots, there are so many other types of veg you can have, why stick to possibly the blandest combination?
If you read the posts upthread, no one was talking about potatoes (which are not a non starchy veg and IMO wouldn't count as a vegetable serving/course) or carrots (which aren't that high carb on their own). (I really like potatoes and would say not being able to fit in any potatoes is a separate issue, as they and sweet potatoes and beans and oats and so on are nutrient dense foods that IMO fit well in a healthful diet and are for me easy to avoid overeating if I don't, you know, fry them or add tons of butter, but that has nothing to do with the conversation about whether one might have to worry even about non starchy veg.)
I gave an example of what I was talking about and why I couldn't fit in fruit/had to cut back on veg above, and so have some others.
Point is not that keto is bad for all, but that it's simply not true to say it has no affect on the amount of fruit you can eat (to the point of making many who do it think they can't afford it, or can afford only tiny amounts of the lowest carb fruits -- avocado being an exception, of course) or for many of us the amount of veg you can consume. I eat a huge variety of veg, plenty have carbs that add up, and for me cutting back on veg or having to worry that a specific one (say, brussels) have too many carbs for a particular day rather than happily eating the various veg in my frig or from my garden/the green market/the farm box I get would be a problem.
I am not saying it's a problem for everyone, but FlyingMolly was claiming it's not a genuine issue and my experience with keto was it was, even at the relatively high level of carbs I was eating above what is normally pushed these days (from what I see and read).
I do think people have different ideas of whats's a normal amount of veg to have, though -- many of us acknowledge we are people who prefer to have several servings with most meals.4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
… I need to try this. Why haven't I heard of this?
Yeah, my breakfast is either full-fat greek yogurt with either mixed berries, apple sauce, nuts and honey or cherries. I almost always have cherry tomatoes and coleslaw with lunch, and I always have broccoli/asparagus/mushrooms/cabbage/courgette (zucchini)/green beans/spinach etc etc ETC with my evening meal.
Boo hoo I can't have potato or carrots, there are so many other types of veg you can have, why stick to possibly the blandest combination?
If you read the posts upthread, no one was talking about potatoes (which are not a non starchy veg and IMO wouldn't count as a vegetable serving/course) or carrots (which aren't that high carb on their own). (I really like potatoes and would say not being able to fit in any potatoes is a separate issue, as they and sweet potatoes and beans and oats and so on are nutrient dense foods that IMO fit well in a healthful diet and are for me easy to avoid overeating if I don't, you know, fry them or add tons of butter, but that has nothing to do with the conversation about whether one might have to worry even about non starchy veg.)
I gave an example of what I was talking about and why I couldn't fit in fruit/had to cut back on veg above, and so have some others.
Point is not that keto is bad for all, but that it's simply not true to say it has no affect on the amount of fruit you can eat (to the point of making many who do it think they can't afford it, or can afford only tiny amounts of the lowest carb fruits -- avocado being an exception, of course) or for many of us the amount of veg you can consume. I eat a huge variety of veg, plenty have carbs that add up, and for me cutting back on veg or having to worry that a specific one (say, brussels) have too many carbs for a particular day rather than happily eating the various veg in my frig or from my garden/the green market/the farm box I get would be a problem.
I am not saying it's a problem for everyone, but FlyingMolly was claiming it's not a genuine issue and my experience with keto was it was, even at the relatively high level of carbs I was eating above what is normally pushed these days (from what I see and read).
I do think people have different ideas of whats's a normal amount of veg to have, though -- many of us acknowledge we are people who prefer to have several servings with most meals.
Exactly to the bolded.
I also don't think carrots are particularly starchy or high carb. They taste sweet, but they have a decent carb/calorie/fiber ratio. I think they get a bum rap because of the "sugars". Oh well.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot."
I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross
How do you make a crustless quiche, and is it possible without any milk (even nondairy)?0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot." I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross
How do you make a crustless quiche, and is it possible without any milk (even nondairy)?
I'm sure you could find a recipe online?0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot." I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross
How do you make a crustless quiche, and is it possible without any milk (even nondairy)?
I'm sure you could find a recipe online?
I have, and they all have some form of milk in there. That's why I am asking.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
… I need to try this. Why haven't I heard of this?
Yeah, my breakfast is either full-fat greek yogurt with either mixed berries, apple sauce, nuts and honey or cherries. I almost always have cherry tomatoes and coleslaw with lunch, and I always have broccoli/asparagus/mushrooms/cabbage/courgette (zucchini)/green beans/spinach etc etc ETC with my evening meal.
Boo hoo I can't have potato or carrots, there are so many other types of veg you can have, why stick to possibly the blandest combination?
If you read the posts upthread, no one was talking about potatoes (which are not a non starchy veg and IMO wouldn't count as a vegetable serving/course) or carrots (which aren't that high carb on their own). (I really like potatoes and would say not being able to fit in any potatoes is a separate issue, as they and sweet potatoes and beans and oats and so on are nutrient dense foods that IMO fit well in a healthful diet and are for me easy to avoid overeating if I don't, you know, fry them or add tons of butter, but that has nothing to do with the conversation about whether one might have to worry even about non starchy veg.)
I gave an example of what I was talking about and why I couldn't fit in fruit/had to cut back on veg above, and so have some others.
Point is not that keto is bad for all, but that it's simply not true to say it has no affect on the amount of fruit you can eat (to the point of making many who do it think they can't afford it, or can afford only tiny amounts of the lowest carb fruits -- avocado being an exception, of course) or for many of us the amount of veg you can consume. I eat a huge variety of veg, plenty have carbs that add up, and for me cutting back on veg or having to worry that a specific one (say, brussels) have too many carbs for a particular day rather than happily eating the various veg in my frig or from my garden/the green market/the farm box I get would be a problem.
I am not saying it's a problem for everyone, but FlyingMolly was claiming it's not a genuine issue and my experience with keto was it was, even at the relatively high level of carbs I was eating above what is normally pushed these days (from what I see and read).
I do think people have different ideas of whats's a normal amount of veg to have, though -- many of us acknowledge we are people who prefer to have several servings with most meals.
I think it's just frustrating that people jump to the conclusion that fruit and veg are an absolute no no. Like CICO say, you can have anything in moderation. Same with fruit and veg for us. I said it a while back, it was my little brothers birthday and I had cake. A whole slice. F-it, one slice of cake isn't going to de-rail 4 months of dedication. But slightly hopping onto the addiction topic, for one person a slice of birthday cake could trigger an entire day/s or week of binging on sweets/cake/whatever.
I know the topic of sugar and addiction is a touchy and delicate one, I've read through the many, many threads on it, and an agreement will never be met. People with serious addictions get offended because how can you compare sugar to [insert drug of choice], but people who can't control sugar binges get offended because it is their own personal struggle, how dare you poop on their problems, and it just goes around and around and around.
But that's the thing, nobody binges on carbs or sugar. They binge on yummy food.
Well not nobody. ED folks can certainly binge on 10 or 20 baked potatoes. but the carb addict folks aren't talking about eating 5 pounds of potatoes or two bags of carrots. They're complaining about twinkies and chocolate cake and cinnamon rolls.
I want yummy food too. But it's not carb addiction.
But you have a conscious decision to only have one and leave the rest. My own personal, non-scientific, not backed up by articles from Joes Bloggs, opinion is that if you can't have one and leave the rest then there is a problem. I'm not going to go into the details of the definition of the word 'addition' because I don't have that much spare time on my hands and to be honest it's the equivalent of flogging a dead horse at this point because the conversation will just keep going until the thread is locked.
I can. That doesn't mean I'm going to.
Again. It's a self control problem intersecting with a yummy food problem. Not a carb problem.8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot." I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross
How do you make a crustless quiche, and is it possible without any milk (even nondairy)?
I'm sure you could find a recipe online?
I have, and they all have some form of milk in there. That's why I am asking.
Have you tried googling non-dairy crustless quiche?
This was the first result I got when I googled it. https://www.thespruceeats.com/dairy-free-crustless-spinach-quiche-1001070
Is soy milk allowed? They will probably have some sort of dairy alternative.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
… I need to try this. Why haven't I heard of this?
Yeah, my breakfast is either full-fat greek yogurt with either mixed berries, apple sauce, nuts and honey or cherries. I almost always have cherry tomatoes and coleslaw with lunch, and I always have broccoli/asparagus/mushrooms/cabbage/courgette (zucchini)/green beans/spinach etc etc ETC with my evening meal.
Boo hoo I can't have potato or carrots, there are so many other types of veg you can have, why stick to possibly the blandest combination?
If you read the posts upthread, no one was talking about potatoes (which are not a non starchy veg and IMO wouldn't count as a vegetable serving/course) or carrots (which aren't that high carb on their own). (I really like potatoes and would say not being able to fit in any potatoes is a separate issue, as they and sweet potatoes and beans and oats and so on are nutrient dense foods that IMO fit well in a healthful diet and are for me easy to avoid overeating if I don't, you know, fry them or add tons of butter, but that has nothing to do with the conversation about whether one might have to worry even about non starchy veg.)
I gave an example of what I was talking about and why I couldn't fit in fruit/had to cut back on veg above, and so have some others.
Point is not that keto is bad for all, but that it's simply not true to say it has no affect on the amount of fruit you can eat (to the point of making many who do it think they can't afford it, or can afford only tiny amounts of the lowest carb fruits -- avocado being an exception, of course) or for many of us the amount of veg you can consume. I eat a huge variety of veg, plenty have carbs that add up, and for me cutting back on veg or having to worry that a specific one (say, brussels) have too many carbs for a particular day rather than happily eating the various veg in my frig or from my garden/the green market/the farm box I get would be a problem.
I am not saying it's a problem for everyone, but FlyingMolly was claiming it's not a genuine issue and my experience with keto was it was, even at the relatively high level of carbs I was eating above what is normally pushed these days (from what I see and read).
I do think people have different ideas of whats's a normal amount of veg to have, though -- many of us acknowledge we are people who prefer to have several servings with most meals.
I think it's just frustrating that people jump to the conclusion that fruit and veg are an absolute no no. Like CICO say, you can have anything in moderation. Same with fruit and veg for us. I said it a while back, it was my little brothers birthday and I had cake. A whole slice. F-it, one slice of cake isn't going to de-rail 4 months of dedication. But slightly hopping onto the addiction topic, for one person a slice of birthday cake could trigger an entire day/s or week of binging on sweets/cake/whatever.
I know the topic of sugar and addiction is a touchy and delicate one, I've read through the many, many threads on it, and an agreement will never be met. People with serious addictions get offended because how can you compare sugar to [insert drug of choice], but people who can't control sugar binges get offended because it is their own personal struggle, how dare you poop on their problems, and it just goes around and around and around.
But that's the thing, nobody binges on carbs or sugar. They binge on yummy food.
Well not nobody. ED folks can certainly binge on 10 or 20 baked potatoes. but the carb addict folks aren't talking about eating 5 pounds of potatoes or two bags of carrots. They're complaining about twinkies and chocolate cake and cinnamon rolls.
I want yummy food too. But it's not carb addiction.
But you have a conscious decision to only have one and leave the rest. My own personal, non-scientific, not backed up by articles from Joes Bloggs, opinion is that if you can't have one and leave the rest then there is a problem. I'm not going to go into the details of the definition of the word 'addition' because I don't have that much spare time on my hands and to be honest it's the equivalent of flogging a dead horse at this point because the conversation will just keep going until the thread is locked.
I can. That doesn't mean I'm going to.
Again. It's a self control problem intersecting with a yummy food problem. Not a carb problem.
Can? Have one and leave the rest? Most people can, which leads to the question if someone just carries on eating to the point of being sick, cognitively there is a problem there.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
I always like when people talk about carb addiction and their examples are thinks like cookies and whatnot that have equally, if not more calories coming from fat.
I've never heard someone complaining that they're addicted to beans and lentils and oats and root vegetables, etc which are all nutritionally good sources of carbohydrates. It's always the cookie as if all carbs are just junk foods.
Of course they’re different, but in my own eating experience they’re linked. I’ve never had success limiting myself to unlimited carbs such as lentils, beans, and potatoes—and yes, I’ve tried. When I eat an apple for a snack I WILL eventually eat candy later that same night, not because carbs are all created equal but because my brain’s wiring kind of sucks sometimes. I’m a lifelong binge eater, and I have literally never found a strategy that works for me until I tried keto.
I’m not saying carrots are bad or that everyone should do keto, but cutting MY net carbs down to 10% of my calories has accomplished what decades of “knowing better” has not.
And what I found is that when I cut out sugar and grains and starches, I actually had way more room than I expected for vegetables, and can still enjoy more fruit than I ever got around to eating consistently before (because I’d forget or run out or be in a hurry and granola bars were RIGHT THERE). So it kind of annoys me when I see “I’d do keto if I didn’t, you know, enjoy produce!” because the notion that keto must mean nothing but steak and eggs all day is uncharitable and untrue.
This kind of thing just makes me think you didn't eat many fruits or veg before, and that therefore you aren't really comparing keto to a planned, nutrient dense non keto diet.
When I did keto I had to cut down the amount of veg I ate (and I could not eat any fruit or beans/lentils) even aiming for around 35 net (around 65 total) carbs. It is true that I like to eat a variety of non starchy veg (cauliflower and broccoli and brussels have more carbs than some others, I am not actually super into carrots so they weren't my problem), and it is also true that I love veg and consider them really important and routinely eat about 10-12 servings if not trying to hit super low carb numbers.
My bigger issue was the fruit, which I could not fit in at all (other than some avocado), and that I was even stressing about nuts and plain greek yogurt.) I also think beans and lentils are really affirmatively good foods to eat and had to cut them out. And this idea that one wouldn't eat fruit pre keto is something I don't relate to at all, I love fruit.
NOT saying it's not a good diet if you enjoy it, but it's simply true that this is one of the drawbacks for some people, and if you are starting from a different place re produce consumption, maybe that's the issue.
I’m comparing keto to the diet I actually ate. What matters is what we do in the real world, right?
Look: I love veggies. I would have told you a year ago that I ate tons of them and they’re delicious and yay vegetables. What that meant in practice, though, was that I tended to eat a lot of them at once, then have other whole meals where I really didn’t so much. Pancakes with a sliced strawberry for decoration, or a sandwich with a leaf of lettuce stuck in the middle, a plate of pasta that’s 90% pasta and 10% sauce...it just doesn’t really add up. Now that I have NO meals like those, I have more room to play around.
I can eat as much arugula as I can stuff into my face and it’s still keto. Unless you know people who routinely eat MORE arugula than they can stuff into their faces, I mean, it should be obvious already that you don’t “have to” cut veggies to go keto. Right?
As for fruit, I have no idea why people claim fruit is impossible, because check my diary for the last few days. My favorite meal is an avocado and half a box of raspberries; I eat that combo all the time. When I’m not taking up space with quinoa, I can do things like that.
I eat less produce in a single sitting, yet still more overall. Not because I avoided it before, but because I’m no longer using calories on grains or sugar, and nature fills a vacuum with coleslaw mix.
See, I see you spending calories on things like fat bombs and dark chocolate that I spend on potatoes or more vegetables.
I don't think 2 cups of arugula is particularly much, nor do I think is 3 ounces of raspberries... as you said, content is relative. Perhaps compared to how you used to it, it is. Compared to how I eat, I'd have to cut my produce intake to match yours.
This isn't a dis on your diet at all, it's more going back to the ongoing thread of conversation regarding the relative content of vegetables in people's diets and their perceptions here.
Two cups of arugula is enough to cut the fat "feel" of the things I usually eat with it. I could easily fit six cups into a day, though, which would probably make me feel sick but would definitely count as "a lot." I choose to eat a portion of raspberries (and strawberries, and blueberries, and watermelon, and pineapple) instead because I think it's more fun to eat those than to chew on arugula all day, but a volume eater who just wanted more vegetables could certainly go the other way on that. So it really wouldn't require cutting back at all, but rather, as Running_and_Coffee pointed out, swapping out certain fruits and vegetables for more fibrous, lower-carb ones.
If I take the crust out of a quiche recipe and fill the thing to bursting with spinach (as I do from time to time), it's still MUCH lower-carb than it was with the crust on. There's also way the heck more spinach in it than there was. Similarly, if you replaced potatoes with an equal weight of cauliflower, you'd only be getting 20% of the net carbs...and an equal weight of cauliflower fills even more of the plate.
Not all carb-y foods are created equal, and for most people cutting out the carb-iest ones leaves a lot of room for the other kind, if they want to find it. No one is obligated to do so, of course, but it can definitely be done.
No, I get that! No argument really. My initial point (similar to lemurcat's) was that I'd have to cut my personal vegetable intake to have a keto level of net carbs.
BTW - all my quiches are crustless ... I have celiac disease and think gluten free replacements are gross
How do you make a crustless quiche, and is it possible without any milk (even nondairy)?
I'm sure it's possible with silken tofu somehow, but since soy and my IBS don't play nicely together, I don't really have any suggestions based on experience to offer you.
The reason I suggest it is because the quiche I make uses cottage cheese and eggs as the base, and I'm sure that you could probably make the base with the silken tofu instead of the cottage cheese since I know people make "cheesecakes" that way.
I don't know if this will help you though, since dairy free milks aren't an option for you either.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Thanks @Lois_1989stanmann571 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »fuzzylop72 wrote: »
Specific foods as an addiction is a hot debate topic since it has not been proven or accepted in medical circles. I find carbs, especially sugary or refined carbs, to be addictive-like. They lead to wanting more, increase my appetite and cravings, and tend to result in weight gain.
Do you crave foods you don't like the taste of, though, which would be a key benchmark for carb addiction being real? If you're only craving hyper-palatable foods that have some carbs in them, that's not really a carb addiction.
I don't think addiction is like that. People don't crave things they dislike. They might crave something that is not good for them, or affects their health and well being, but there is something about it they like or want. IMO
It's clear that you know absolutely nothing about addiction.
I have never been addicted to anything (carb addiction is not a real or accepted thing). I just imagine that people do something repeatedly, and become addicted to it, because there is something about it that they like or are drawn to. Why start it, and then do it repeatedly, otherwise? I imagine if first experiences were not good, they would not do it again (go gambling, or smoke, or drink, or get high, etc.).
I reasoned that the individual must have gotten something they perceived as positive from their initial uses or they would not have continued to do it enough to develop the addiction. One won't become addicted to something unless they do it, and then are unlucky enough for it to become a problem.
I could be completely wrong. Maybe some people develop addictions through force or stubbornness or something else.
Honestly, just quit while you are behind.
Wow, clearly a nerve has been hit. No need to be rude about it, she was just reasoning her thought processes about the topic.
Yes, People get quite rightly and legitimately triggered when claims are made and persisted in about addiction. Especially when those claims are as ill informed as the above. The only thing rude is to persist in making ignorant assertions about the nature of addiction after being corrected. That's notwithstanding the ridiculous nature of the fiction known as "carb addiction". There are legitimate eating disorders, but there's no evidence for the fiction known as carb addiction. Nobody is tricking for twinkies. And nobody who claims carb addiction will admit to being "triggered" by carrots, or apples, or Grapefruit juice. It's chocolate cake, or twinkies, or Snowballs.
Perhaps you could explain to me why people do something enough to get addicted if they are not getting something they like from it? You have snapped at me, but that's all you've offered to correct me. Stating that I don't understand isn't a lot of help.
I actually went googling about whether people like some aspect of whatever it is they are addicted to. A very quick search seemed to back up that hypothesis...
I did not say I was addicted to carbs, but carbs are a problem for me. A trigger macro rather than a trigger food. If I have potatoes or rice cakes or snap peas, I crave more carbs. If I have a fair bit, I end up eating more calories to appease that craving. I have multiple health issues that are negatively affected by carbs, but if I have more than about 15 g in a sitting, I have to struggle to not eat more.
I easily overeat snap peas, carrots, popcorn, jelly beans, soda, bread or other carbs. If it is hyperpalatble with fat and sugar and salt, I eat even more because I like the taste. People keep saying that no one binges on carrots or other whole foods but I really think that it comes down to availability of the tastiest foods. Why binge on kale when one has jelly beans available?
I have never had a problem with the other macros. I don't binge on eggs or steak, or olive or coconut oils. Only carbs create a problem for me.
I think my problem is addictive-like in some aspects. If I have some I tend to eat more even if it s a problem for me. I have reactive hypoglycaemia so I do shake, get headaches and light headed if I don't get carbs every couple of hours when I am eating them frequently. I have mostly been out of ketosis for a couple of months - I felt worse and worse (still ate more carbs than I should) until I finally went almost zero carb again. The shaking and such lasted a little over a week. It seems addiction like to me... Again, I am not comparing it to a hard drug addiction but maybe something similar to coffee or cigarettes or weed.
You're comparing reactive hypoglycemia to addiction?
I've seen everything now.
I did not say they were the same. I said there were some similarities. Mocking me does not make it untrue.
NO, there aren't any actual similarities.
Just like there aren't any actual similarities between dehydration/heat affliction and addiction.
There are superficial similarities.9 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »fuzzylop72 wrote: »
Specific foods as an addiction is a hot debate topic since it has not been proven or accepted in medical circles. I find carbs, especially sugary or refined carbs, to be addictive-like. They lead to wanting more, increase my appetite and cravings, and tend to result in weight gain.
Do you crave foods you don't like the taste of, though, which would be a key benchmark for carb addiction being real? If you're only craving hyper-palatable foods that have some carbs in them, that's not really a carb addiction.
I don't think addiction is like that. People don't crave things they dislike. They might crave something that is not good for them, or affects their health and well being, but there is something about it they like or want. IMO
I don't think my cupboards or fridge have ever got to the point of eating some carb that I didn't like. I have a family of 5 so there is always veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, and baked goods around.
The closest I've ever got to eating carbs I didn't particularly like much was radishes and kohlrabi. But I ate it.
I've over eaten beans, veggies, fruits, raisins, milk, yogurt, cereal, rice, baked goods, noodles, and of course candies and hyperpalatable foods like doritos or cheezies.
But I called my issue with carbs "addiction-like". Similar. Not to hard drugs but perhaps cigarettes. Where I KNOW it is negatively affecting my health (I have a few health issues that are affected by carbs) but I kept eating it.
An alcoholic may prefer a specific kind of alcohol or drink...but in the absence of that particular kind of alcohol or drink, they will drink whatever to get their fix. There were a couple alcoholics in my platoon in boot camp...they would raid the cleaning closet and drink Listerine.
A gambling addict may prefer a particular game...but they'll gamble on pretty much anything.
This is basically it. I preferred jelly beans and soda. I'd eat carrots or celery if there was nothing else. First I'd look for the tastiest, then go down the line of preference to baked sweet goods, then starchy foods and fruit, then non starchy veggies.
But a grocery store is only a couple of kilometres away. It was easy to drive to the store to get my preferred, tastiest foods. It just took 5 minutes longer.6 -
Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I'd argue that a lot of foods that are easy to over-eat do not have much fat at all, like popcorn, candy corns and jelly beans, fat free ice cream and other fat free treats. Like everything I ever ate between 1995-2000, pretty much!!
But I agree with you--I doubt anyone ever became overweight from eating too many apples.
That said, I've tried many different approaches to losing and maintaining weight, and keto (ie, no/few apples) has been the first one where I don't find myself fighting food demons after the honeymoon phase passed.
I became overweight eating a LOT of fruit. which meant more calories than my body needed. I can easily eat 3 lbs of cherries in one sitting if they are in season. I can eat a whole pineapply myself and so on so yes its possible. as for apples I could eat enough to put me over my maintenance calories.0 -
I'm new to posting. I have been doing low carb and intermittent fasting for the past two months. I started slowly decreasing the carbs and upped the protein and good fats then recently went from the 16 /8 fasting window to the 20/4 fasting window because I want to see results a little faster. I was in a plateau stage for over a year and I needed to try out other ways to lose weight. For me the belly fat is the issue and I must say committed to fasting so I stay in ketosis so I burn off the excess fat. It is a struggle but lately I'm finally losing weight because I'm sticking to 700 calories two days a week ( eating at 2pm & a protein shake at 6pm) and then 1200 calories five days a week doing two meals a day only 2pm & 6pm. To combat hunger, I drink chicken broth as I crave sodium on the keto diet and I drink apple cider vinegar with 12 ounces of water every morning. I also drink black coffee, and go out for a walk to combat food cravings. I have found that I no longer want to eat sweet things like I used to. I hope to lose these last 20 pounds without much fuss.17
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lemurcat12 wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »Running_and_Coffee wrote: »I love my vegetables and still eat them in large quantities, but don't miss the cookies, oatmeal, pizza or anything else I used to crave pre-keto. It's not right for everyone, though and it's not the only way. I did feel like keto was a good option for destroying carb cravings, if that along with weight loss is your end goal.
Same. You can take quite a lot of the carbohydrates out of the typical American diet and still have plenty of room left over for fruits and veggies. It’s true that I don’t sit around munching on a whole apple as a snack on keto, but let’s face it: that wasn’t something I’d actually do before keto, either.
Now, instead of having a big salad once in a while and feeling so virtuous that I decide I deserve a cookie to go with it, I eat an avocado, heaping plates of leafy greens, and moderate portions of berries pretty much every day, along with whatever else is lying around that I can squeeze in.
And I have actual self-control around food, which just...was not the case six months ago. It’s not the case when I take weekend breaks, either. People can scoff all they want at the idea of carbs as an addiction, but for some of us they really do seem to function that way.
But the examples you use don't really support the idea of "carb addiction." An apple is pretty much all carbs, so if you weren't craving apples, it wasn't just a carb craving. If you were eating cookies, remember that most cookies are as much fat as carbs.
I think low carb and keto can be good choices for people (I eat somewhat low carb much of the time and tried keto out of curiosity), but it's a pet peeve that people going on about "carbs" when they don't really mean they are unable to control themselves around carrots or apples or plain potatoes or oats or what not (yes, some people are exceptions, but even so I suspect it's rare to just crave "carbs" and not some specific food item which is more often than not NOT mostly just carbs).
I also think very often people don't realize that going from a poor, uncontrolled (eat what I want when I want it, only control mechanism is occasionally thinking "man, I should try to eat less today") diet to a more planned and healthful one very often DOES result in not feeling so out of control. It's not necessarily "carbs" at all.
And when I briefly tried keto I absolutely stopped doing it mostly because it was late spring and I was thinking about all the in-season fruit I wanted to be eating soon, and missed being able to fit in things like roasted potatoes and a very healthy dish with pasta (and lots of vegetables) and, especially beans and lentils. I was hitting my limit daily with just vegetables and some nuts and plain greek yogurt sometimes, and was doing so despite eating fewer veg when doing keto (and no fruit), but I did eat lots and lots of vegetables before keto.
Anyway, like I said, I agree it can be a pleasant way to eat for some and that it might be more filling for some than other options, but grouping all "carbs" together and framing them as the enemy or problem IMO makes no sense. If someone really does crave "carbs" generically, eating vegetables is not a bad idea or problem to have.
If the issue, instead, is feeling out of control around some specific foods, or overindulging in them, and they often are as much fat as carb, or are very specific carbs and not others, I think it's worth being more precise about that.
Nothing to do with whether or not keto is a good approach. Personally, I like low carbing for the opposite reason, though -- most starchy carbs and sweets are to me easy foods to cut back on and sensible ones for me to cut back on, as I don't miss them much and am satisfied with small portions and they don't satiate me all that much. A meal with just a small portion of starchy carbs or none is just as satisfying, so if cutting calories it's a good way. If I loved carbs (meaning starchy carbs or, I guess, sugary foods, even though they are often high fat too) most of all, I would probably find a different strategy worked better. (And unlike with keto, I can get in all the vegetables I think are desirable plus some fruit or smaller servings of starchy carbs or both without problem when low carbing, as I do it. Couldn't with keto, although that doesn't mean it's not right for others. I tend to have different ideas about how much veg is ideal in a diet than some do, and that was a frustration when I tried keto.)
For me that is an excellent post and sums up most of my thinking and my preferred way of eating.
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Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.10
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Things I habitually overate at my highest weight:
Nuts (must have been the carbs in them)
Lots of olive oil on salad (must have been the carbs in salad)
A cup of crushed walnuts mixed with cinnamon and probably 2 teaspoons of honey (it wasn't the walnuts, I'm sure it was the honey)
Shish kebab (hmm... no carbs there, can we blame protein? I got it! We grilled onion next to it, must have contaminated the meat with trace carbs)
Fried eggplant
Lots of hummus
Buttered mushrooms
Creamed spinach
Cheese, with or without bread - I've always loved dipping veggies in cheese sauce.
etc..etc.
Learning to moderate these and not overeating them (and nearly eliminating some of them) has taken me years. It was a steep learning curve, and some of these foods (mainly nuts) were closely attached to certain habits and cues, so I had to work on that as well. When I go for a higher calorie day I find I fall back to my good old beloved fatty foods.
I wonder why there isn't a "fat addiction" movement. Is it because it's uncool since we all know the 90s are uncool and fat doesn't make you fat?
Ha ha be careful, one could spring up. Someone who can't help gorging on blocks of cheese and butter.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Things I habitually overate at my highest weight:
Nuts (must have been the carbs in them)
Lots of olive oil on salad (must have been the carbs in salad)
A cup of crushed walnuts mixed with cinnamon and probably 2 teaspoons of honey (it wasn't the walnuts, I'm sure it was the honey)
Shish kebab (hmm... no carbs there, can we blame protein? I got it! We grilled onion next to it, must have contaminated the meat with trace carbs)
Fried eggplant
Lots of hummus
Buttered mushrooms
Creamed spinach
Cheese, with or without bread - I've always loved dipping veggies in cheese sauce.
etc..etc.
Learning to moderate these and not overeating them (and nearly eliminating some of them) has taken me years. It was a steep learning curve, and some of these foods (mainly nuts) were closely attached to certain habits and cues, so I had to work on that as well. When I go for a higher calorie day I find I fall back to my good old beloved fatty foods.
I wonder why there isn't a "fat addiction" movement. Is it because it's uncool since we all know the 90s are uncool and fat doesn't make you fat?
The funny thing is, the foods the fat addiction movement could claim they're addicted to would be 90% the same foods the carb addiction people claim.7 -
Good news for people who are "fat addicted"--there are some great diets from the 1990s that are perfect for you. Maybe we can trade--I think I have a stash of Snackwells somewhere and I could use more walnuts.1
-
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....9 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
And only limited amounts of protein and fat are essential. If we were all sticking to only to essential amounts we would soon die of starvation.6 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
And only limited amounts of protein and fat are essential. If we were all sticking to only to essential amounts we would soon die of starvation.
plus to me, fibre is essential. Spending 30 min on the toilet is fun when you have angry birds or MFP threads. But when your phone is dead or you forgot it in your sister's car...all bran for me plz5 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
The fact that a lot of essential micronutrients are shy and thus only come with their unessential carby friends to the food party doesn't help the argument either.6 -
Oops, duplicating points. Will just quote instead.stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
The fact that a lot of essential micronutrients are shy and thus only come with their unessential carby friends to the food party doesn't help the argument either.
This.amusedmonkey wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
And only limited amounts of protein and fat are essential. If we were all sticking to only to essential amounts we would soon die of starvation.
And this.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »Good luck reducing your intake of that non-essential macro nutrient.
Non-essential doesn't mean non-beneficial. Carbs are not needed to survive but, if you are acitve and get high intensity exercise on a regular basis, they can be very beneficial to thrive.
Personally, I'm all about thriving and not just surviving. Just sayin'....
The fact that a lot of essential micronutrients are shy and thus only come with their unessential carby friends to the food party doesn't help the argument either.
by that logic - doesn't it mean that their carby friends are essential because they encourage the shy mircos to show up?0 -
Pretty much all the foods I used to overeat were high fat. Part of this was excess olive oil on things, part of it was that I'd eat cheese or nuts as a snack and overdo it (I love trying and buying different cheeses, even have a great book called The Cheese Bible, and live reasonably near a good cheese shop), and part was that I'd snack at work or emotionally eat when stressed and much of that was the same kinds of things "carb addicts" claim to be addicted to, which are also high fat. And part is that I love Indian food, Ethiopian food, going out to eat to some fun new (or new to me) restaurant and live in a city with a good restaurant scene, etc.
Never crossed my mind to deal with this by going low fat (in fact, I tend to do better on a diet if I have slightly more fat, as it fits my preferences better and I feel more satisfied, even though fat itself isn't sating for me). And if I did go low fat, I'd do it based on naturally low fat foods (most people I know these days who are low fat tend to be WFPB, and I have done plant-based Lents that ended up being low fat if I didn't make an effort to include in good sources of fat -- which these days I do).
I don't believe I've ever had a Snackwell or witnesses anyone actually eating a Snackwell; they seem more popular in lore than they ever were in reality, and pretty obviously no one REALLY thought low fat cookies were the ultimate in healthful eating. If people had been serious about healthful eating in a low fat way they'd have eaten more vegetables and legumes than the US diet included in the '90s (or at any recent time).1 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »Just out of curiosity I added up all the carbs I ate today from fruit and vegetables alone. It came to a grand total of 84 grams. I must be a carb addict with that high number
if that makes you one I have a problem. I had almost 500g of carbs the other day. but I had been busy 3 days straight and ran myself ragged with things that needed done.0 -
CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »Just out of curiosity I added up all the carbs I ate today from fruit and vegetables alone. It came to a grand total of 84 grams. I must be a carb addict with that high number
if that makes you one I have a problem. I have almost 500g of carbs the other day. but I had been busy 3 days straight and ran myself ragged with things that needed done.
ditto - i had 480g yesterday....my daily average is like 380-480....1 -
deannalfisher wrote: »CharlieBeansmomTracey wrote: »Lillymoo01 wrote: »Just out of curiosity I added up all the carbs I ate today from fruit and vegetables alone. It came to a grand total of 84 grams. I must be a carb addict with that high number
if that makes you one I have a problem. I have almost 500g of carbs the other day. but I had been busy 3 days straight and ran myself ragged with things that needed done.
ditto - i had 480g yesterday....my daily average is like 380-480....
mine are usually over 200g a day. that doesnt count bread or grains most days either.0
This discussion has been closed.
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