Vegan vs Keto
Kaelyn90
Posts: 9 Member
Both of these diets have become really popular lately and I have done research into both. They both say totally opposite things to the point if negating the healthiness of the other. So I guess I just want to see if anyone has had experience with both. Or if anyone has a better grasp on nutrition and can weigh in on which is better.
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Replies
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"Better" for what?
Both are arbitrarily and unnecessarily restrictive (veganism for ethical reasons, so at least there's that). Neither are inherently healthy or unhealthy - it all depends upon how you structure your diet within their parameters.
Cheeseburgers, bacon and lard are all keto foods. But there are plenty of other keto choices which can make for a balanced, healthy diet.
Oreos, Pop Tarts and bean burritos are all vegan foods. But there are plenty of other vegan choices which can make for a balanced, healthy diet.
Any diet can be healthy or unhealthy. It all depends upon you making the proper choices and considering context and dosage of the foods you eat within your overall diet.17 -
Better for overall, long term health. Weight loss and control and disease prevention.0
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OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.27
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Weight loss comes down to calories. Period.
Overall long term health comes down to eating a sensible, balanced diet with adequate macro and micronutrients (which can be achieved in a variety of different modalities, whether it be vegetarian/vegan, IIFYM, keto, paleo, etc.). It's also helpful to combine a reasonable amount of strength and cardiovascular training, get adequate rest, don't smoke or take drugs, don't drink alcohol excessively, and eliminate stressors from your life wherever possible.
Disease prevention comes down to genetics first, followed by the above mentioned factors. Maintaining a healthy weight also helps stave off many diseases which are associated with obesity - which comes right back full circle to calories. You lose weight by consuming less calories than you expend, and you maintain that loss by not consuming more calories than you expend.11 -
Keto works. It’s backed by science23
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ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
This is precisely the kinda info I’m looking for. Thank you! I’ve read The China Study and watched a few documentaries. I even ate a vegan diet for about 6 months last year. No dramatic weight loss because I didn’t do it properly. Not quite McD’s veggie burgers and Oreos but vegan chik’n nuggets and chips and salsa. Even so I felt a whole lot better and more energized. But if I do it again, I’d definitely do it properly - the whole foods, plant based way.
A lot of people at my work have had great success with Keto and I’ve considered giving it a try. But my major concerns were that meat just grosses me out most of the time so that would make Keto super difficult and not knowing whether it was sustainable and healthy.
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OP, you can eat a healthy vegan diet, and you can eat an unhealthy vegan diet.
You can eat a healthy keto diet, and you can eat an unhealthy keto diet.
You can also eat a very healthy diet that is neither vegan or keto.
To lose weight you need a calorie deficit, regardless of what foods you eat. Different people will find different eating styles make sticking to their calorie goal easier.
Picking a diet you enjoy, you can eat in a balanced and varied fashion, is practical, and keeps you at the right calorie level is the key.11 -
OP, you can eat a healthy vegan diet, and you can eat an unhealthy vegan diet.
You can eat a healthy keto diet, and you can eat an unhealthy keto diet.
You can also eat a very healthy diet that is neither vegan or keto.
To lose weight you need a calorie deficit, regardless of what foods you eat. Different people will find different eating styles make sticking to their calorie goal easier.
Picking a diet you enjoy, you can eat in a balanced and varied fashion, is practical, and keeps you at the right calorie level is the key.
^^This.
The variation within either approach in terms of healthy diets is greater than the variation between the average diets under the two approaches.3 -
If meat grosses you out, then keto is probably not the best option for you. It is possible to do a vegetarian keto diet, but it would be challenging. I like keto precisely because I don't consider any meal complete unless it includes meat, fish or poultry! I enjoy lots of good veggies too, but I would always feel deprived if I tried a vegan diet. Sounds like you would be much happier with a vegan diet. Whatever approach you take, you need to learn to prepare meals you really enjoy so that you can maintain good eating habits.2
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I've had experience with both:
I tried keto twice when I had blood sugar problems (for which it's a good choice if it's sustainable for you). First time I didn't know what to eat so didn't eat much at all, so I lost weight because I was undereating, but was always hungry. The second time I gained weight because I couldn't feel full on the volumes of food I could eat, but had many recipes handy. I didn't lose weight because I was over calories.
During Lent I eat vegan. Due to the rules on some days, it's sometimes hard to eat enough (no added oil, no cooked foods). This leads me to undereat sometimes so I lose weight. Other times I'm actively looking up recipes and making things (lots of nuts and nut products involved, which means lots of calories), so I eat a lot of calories and I gain some weight.
Neither is better than the other. Both restrict things and you need to vigilantly watch your micronutrient intake and be familiar with nutrition to pull them off well. Both can be nutritious and both can be nutritionally poor depending on your choices, just like any diet can be nutritious or nutritionally poor.
I personally enjoy the vegan way of eating more than keto because my food preferences align with it (I don't like meat all that much), but wouldn't switch to it because I like dairy and want to keep enjoying eating with my family (I can push aside the meat when I eat with them, but I can't control that the meat is cooked with the food which makes the food not vegan, even without the meat). Since weight loss is about calories and nutrition is about nutrient variety, I don't feel the need to change my current "eat anything you like" approach. I just keep it within calories and make sure many of my foods are nutritious and balanced.
ETA and PS: tune out the noise and sensational articles and documentaries. Keto is not a physics-defying miracle, but it won't damage your organs. Documentaries are mostly misleading and out of context and sometimes outright propaganda. The best diet for health is one you enjoy and can sustain so it keeps you at a healthy weight, nutritionally balanced, and doesn't affect your social or mental health. This can be achieved on any choice of diet that you enjoy.7 -
I think the bolded part is your problem. If you're just after validaton of your view, you'll not get very far. We are all guilty of this (google "confirmation bias"), so don't feel too bad about it, but you could look into the replies that challenge the ideas you want to hang on to. "Woo" means "bro-science" or "bad science", btw, in case you're curious.ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
This is precisely the kinda info I’m looking for. Thank you! I’ve read The China Study and watched a few documentaries. I even ate a vegan diet for about 6 months last year. No dramatic weight loss because I didn’t do it properly. Not quite McD’s veggie burgers and Oreos but vegan chik’n nuggets and chips and salsa. Even so I felt a whole lot better and more energized. But if I do it again, I’d definitely do it properly - the whole foods, plant based way.
A lot of people at my work have had great success with Keto and I’ve considered giving it a try. But my major concerns were that meat just grosses me out most of the time so that would make Keto super difficult and not knowing whether it was sustainable and healthy.
Oh, and btw again, if you want to lose weight, you have to eat less. You can eat less of anything. You can also eat too much of anything.11 -
"Better" for what?
Both are arbitrarily and unnecessarily restrictive (in my opinion) (veganism for ethical reasons, so at least there's that). Neither are inherently healthy or unhealthy - it all depends upon how you structure your diet within their parameters.
Cheeseburgers, bacon and lard are all keto foods. But there are plenty of other keto choices which can make for a balanced, healthy diet.
Oreos, Pop Tarts and bean burritos are all vegan foods. But there are plenty of other vegan choices which can make for a balanced, healthy diet.
Any diet can be healthy or unhealthy. It all depends upon you making the proper choices and considering context and dosage of the foods you eat within your overall diet.
FIFY
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ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
Any noteworthy evidence to support that claim?
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I think the bolded part is your problem. If you're just after validaton of your view, you'll not get very far. We are all guilty of this (google "confirmation bias"), so don't feel too bad about it, but you could look into the replies that challenge the ideas you want to hang on to. "Woo" means "bro-science" or "bad science", btw, in case you're curious.
Oh, and btw again, if you want to lose weight, you have to eat less. You can eat less of anything. You can also eat too much of anything.
I absolutely appreciate your input, especially the “woo” thing. Didn’t know what that meant. But I’m not looking to just validate my view. I like the information he gave because it has more of what I’m looking for long term and sustainability wise. I am aware that creating a caloric deficit is what brings about weight loss. But if keto or vegan create nutrient deficits that harm my body in the long term, what’s the point? After I got that bit of info from him, I took it to Google and tried to find articles or research on that and honestly I could not.
I’m simply after some starting points for research here. I understand you can’t take all you read on the internet and preach it as gospel.3 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
Any noteworthy evidence to support that claim?
Honestly, I’ve tried to find some and have yet to. Most research says that keto diet hasn’t been studied long enough to show any long term effects.2 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
Any noteworthy evidence to support that claim?
Honestly, I’ve tried to find some and have yet to. Most research says that keto diet hasn’t been studied long enough to show any long term effects.
The diets been around since the 1920’s you would have thought someone would have taken a look at it!
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I think the bolded part is your problem. If you're just after validaton of your view, you'll not get very far. We are all guilty of this (google "confirmation bias"), so don't feel too bad about it, but you could look into the replies that challenge the ideas you want to hang on to. "Woo" means "bro-science" or "bad science", btw, in case you're curious.
Oh, and btw again, if you want to lose weight, you have to eat less. You can eat less of anything. You can also eat too much of anything.
I absolutely appreciate your input, especially the “woo” thing. Didn’t know what that meant. But I’m not looking to just validate my view. I like the information he gave because it has more of what I’m looking for long term and sustainability wise. I am aware that creating a caloric deficit is what brings about weight loss. But if keto or vegan create nutrient deficits that harm my body in the long term, what’s the point? After I got that bit of info from him, I took it to Google and tried to find articles or research on that and honestly I could not.
I’m simply after some starting points for research here. I understand you can’t take all you read on the internet and preach it as gospel.
Both can create deficiencies if you're not careful. Any diet that restricts types of foods does that if you don't put effort into nutrition. This is a little bit easier with a varied diet that doesn't restrict anything (simply by the sheer variety), but it doesn't mean you can't achieve good nutrition with either:
- On a vegan diet, you would have to supplement B12, omega-3, and possibly iron and calcium if you don't process plant iron and calcium well. You would also need to take care to get enough protein.
- On a keto diet, eating plenty of organ meats would be the easiest way to achieve good nutrition. If you don't like them, you would need to take care to include lots and lots of leafy greens, and eat sardines for calcium. You also need to make sure you eat lots of salt because you can be prone to electrolyte imbalance on this diet, and potassium can be a little bit harder to get since you can't eat potatoes, bananas, and legumes. There are keto friendly sources as far as I recall. In general, going the higher carb limit of keto in order to be able to include more vegetables would be a safer bet.
Now for sustainability: sustainability is the ability to happily adhere to the diet and enjoy the food. That's why you can't generalize this one. Some people are happiest eating keto, others are happiest eating vegan. Of course there are many who are happy to just eat a varied diet with no food type restrictions, but you've asked for a comparison. What types of food do you like? What types of food keep you full? What types of food make dieting easier for you? By answering these questions you will know what diet is sustainable for you.4 -
as with most things .. people seen to take a binary approach .. whats better cadio or weights, seriously, do BOTH .. should I reduce weight from my bike, or lose wight from my body, again DO BOTH !
now its pretty much accepted that the best thing for your body is a varied diet ... so in answer to the question of shall I do a keto or vegan diet, the best option is DO BOTH !!!! .... just make sure you keep your calories in a deficit and you will lose weight whilst benefiting from healthy nutritious meat protein, good fats and lots of vegetables and legumes.4 -
as with most things .. people seen to take a binary approach .. whats better cadio or weights, seriously, do BOTH .. should I reduce weight from my bike, or lose wight from my body, again DO BOTH !
now its pretty much accepted that the best thing for your body is a varied diet ... so in answer to the question of shall I do a keto or vegan diet, the best option is DO BOTH !!!! .... just make sure you keep your calories in a deficit and you will lose weight whilst benefiting from healthy nutritious meat protein, good fats and lots of vegetables and legumes.
I appreciate your enthusiasm here and I agree most things aren’t binary. Weight lifting and cardio are both absolutely beneficial to an exercise plan.
But in the sense of doing both vegan and keto, it’d be super difficult and a diet I know I could not sustain long term. And because I’m looking to become healthier by losing weight and keeping it off, it’s important to me that I can foresee myself eating a certain way for life not just a few months. Also it’d be quite impossible the way you’ve broken it down. On a vegan diet, meat could not be included. And I believe keto kinda sways away from legumes.0 -
tennisdude2004 wrote: »tennisdude2004 wrote: »ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
Any noteworthy evidence to support that claim?
Honestly, I’ve tried to find some and have yet to. Most research says that keto diet hasn’t been studied long enough to show any long term effects.
The diets been around since the 1920’s you would have thought someone would have taken a look at it!
That’s just what I’ve come across. Suppose it doesn’t mean it’s not out there.0 -
Vegan diets are loaded with fruits and vegetables. Fruits and vegetables are generally accepted as the healthiest foods there are. It's pretty easy when you think about it.
Agree with a previous poster to check out Forks Over Knives and The China Study.17 -
In my experience people go Vegan for ethical reasons and no so much fitness/nutrition reasons. Same with Keto, people tend to go Keto because they have PCOS, Type-2 Diabetes, or Insulin Resistance. If you don't have those things it might not be worth it. I seen a lot of people do very well with the DASH Diet and the Mediterranean Diet. I did Keto and lost 30 pounds and it taught me many things. I tried to do Vegan but I had a hard time with it after a month. What are your fitness goals and then find a diet that works with that goal.0
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Better for overall, long term health. Weight loss and control and disease prevention.
Vegan is an ethical way of living and isn't just about food choices. I think what you're actually talking about is the current, popular movement to move towards a more whole foods, plant based diet (WFPB)? If so, I've been transitioning to a more plant based diet (focusing on foods like veggies/fruit, nuts and seeds, whole grains, beans etc), because there seems to be some solid research backing it up. And then more abstract things like the Blue Zones, which show similar eating trends as a WFPB woe, etc. I'm making changes to my diet because of the potential health benefits and how it may relate to longevity of life (vs eating the pretty SAD way that I have been). Will it actually make a difference-time will tell lol
I can't say anything about keto because it's not something that interests me/I've never tried it.
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ThePoeToaster wrote: »OK, first of all, VEGANISM is not necessarily healthy. You can eat a veggie burger from McDonald's with fries and a coke and wash it down with Oreos and be vegan. If you're looking to prevent disease, read "The China Study," and watch "Forks over Knives." Any dietician worth their salt will tell you that Keto is a short-term solution and prolonged usage can cause organ damage. So says the NEJM, anyway. A whole foods, plant-based diet is what you want for disease prevention. IM me if you want more info.
This is precisely the kinda info I’m looking for. Thank you! I’ve read The China Study and watched a few documentaries. I even ate a vegan diet for about 6 months last year. No dramatic weight loss because I didn’t do it properly. Not quite McD’s veggie burgers and Oreos but vegan chik’n nuggets and chips and salsa. Even so I felt a whole lot better and more energized. But if I do it again, I’d definitely do it properly - the whole foods, plant based way.
A lot of people at my work have had great success with Keto and I’ve considered giving it a try. But my major concerns were that meat just grosses me out most of the time so that would make Keto super difficult and not knowing whether it was sustainable and healthy.
It doesn't sound like you did veganism improperly. Veganism is a ethical position on animal exploitation and you're still properly vegan if you eat vegan nuggets, chips, and salsa. Some vegans may decide to practice additional restriction for health reasons, but this isn't necessary any more than it's necessary for non-vegans to avoid chips and salsa.
Eating chips and salsa doesn't negate an individual's ethical stance on animal exploitation, which is the very point of veganism.4 -
as with most things .. people seen to take a binary approach .. whats better cadio or weights, seriously, do BOTH .. should I reduce weight from my bike, or lose wight from my body, again DO BOTH !
now its pretty much accepted that the best thing for your body is a varied diet ... so in answer to the question of shall I do a keto or vegan diet, the best option is DO BOTH !!!! .... just make sure you keep your calories in a deficit and you will lose weight whilst benefiting from healthy nutritious meat protein, good fats and lots of vegetables and legumes.
If you're eating meat, you aren't doing both keto and veganism. You aren't doing veganism at all.3 -
as with most things .. people seen to take a binary approach .. whats better cadio or weights, seriously, do BOTH .. should I reduce weight from my bike, or lose wight from my body, again DO BOTH !
now its pretty much accepted that the best thing for your body is a varied diet ... so in answer to the question of shall I do a keto or vegan diet, the best option is DO BOTH !!!! .... just make sure you keep your calories in a deficit and you will lose weight whilst benefiting from healthy nutritious meat protein, good fats and lots of vegetables and legumes.
I appreciate your enthusiasm here and I agree most things aren’t binary. Weight lifting and cardio are both absolutely beneficial to an exercise plan.
But in the sense of doing both vegan and keto, it’d be super difficult and a diet I know I could not sustain long term. And because I’m looking to become healthier by losing weight and keeping it off, it’s important to me that I can foresee myself eating a certain way for life not just a few months. Also it’d be quite impossible the way you’ve broken it down. On a vegan diet, meat could not be included. And I believe keto kinda sways away from legumes.
You're making your own argument for a varied, balanced diet, it just may not have a name.1 -
Better for overall, long term health. Weight loss and control and disease prevention.
Any diet can be as healthy or unhealthy as you make it.
I'm a carnivore who eats a well balanced and varied diet to include a ton of veg and some fruit, whole grains, beans and lentils, etc. I eat a primarily whole foods diet...it's pretty healthy.
You don't have to go to one extreme or another to have a healthy diet.
Veganism is an ethical thing, not a diet thing. Vegans don't consume animal products, nor do they wear them or use products that contain them.4 -
If you want to live long and stay healthy, you should...
- be blessed with good genetics
- maintain a healthy body-weight
- do something active every day
- not smoke or do hard drugs
- manage stress and be social
- follow a generally balanced, varied diet with plenty of whole foods
Humans can thrive on a variety of different diet types and macro splits. I think most would agree that getting lots of veggies, adequate protein and cutting back on processed, sugary foods is a good approach. But there's not much harm in enjoying the not-so-healthy treats once and a while.2 -
This discussion has been closed.
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