Vegan/Plant Based not as effective?

janejellyroll

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Panini911 wrote: »

While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

SCoil123

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Panini911 wrote: »

While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

You responded to the wrong person it seems then. Since my comment was specifically regarding more options depending on location and that isn’t what you were addressing.

Side note - I asked my friend and she seemed mortified at the idea of eating “her girls”. She is not vegetarian but her chickens are family, just like her dogs apparently

janejellyroll

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

SCoil123 wrote: »

janejellyroll wrote: »

Panini911 wrote: »

While I am NOT vegetarian or vegan, many days I don't eat meat. I also do not eat tofu. rarely buy organic. I still get above my protein recommendations even on those days. I just have to pre-log and find some "secret weapons".

I eat a lot of quinoa (in salad, in soup), lentils, black beans. slowly bringing almonds back into my diet. I make my own protein bars using high protein plant based protein powders. I shop at places like Bulk Barn to save money especially on lentils and quinoa.

I am not sure if you would eat eggs, but i find them to be a super good bang for my calorie buck when it comes to protein. Maybe see about finding some nice happy chickens living freely on a farm VS store bought (if the ethics are a concern).

It's incredibly difficult to find a farm source for eggs that doesn't involve both the premature death of males (either they're culling at the farm or purchasing chicks from a source that culls) and female chickens being killed when their production declines. Farms need to make money and having to feed roosters for their natural life along with the older, less productive females is going to be an issue for the bottom line.


So while the "nice happy chickens" on a farm image is nice, those who are avoiding eggs for ethical reasons are unlikely to find a farm that shares their ethics on how it is appropriate to treat chickens.

Judging from OP's comments to date, I don't think she falls in the category of having ethical concerns though.

I think this depends on where you live. In my area there are three households I know who raise chickens and sell their eggs locally. These are homestead families in a mountain community. I realize I’m a city this isn’t likely available

Homesteaders still have to deal with the issue of what to do with roosters and aging layers. I'm also surprised that you know of three homesteaders who raise chickens yet never kill chickens for meat. Most homesteaders I know are using their chickens for eggs and meat.

I’m not sure why they don’t kill them or even know for sure if they do. I don’t believe I even addressed that in my comment. I do know that in our local community groups they all sell fresh eggs, veggies, herbs, and homemade jams during different times in the year.

It's something that would have to be addressed if one was arguing that these eggs were an alternative for those with ethical concerns about eggs. That was the initial claim I was addressing -- that those with ethical concerns could simply look for farms with "nice happy chickens living freely."

Homesteaders who are practicing the "culling" of male chicks (or buying chicks from suppliers who do -- which is all of them), killing aging chickens with declining productivity, or killing chickens for meat wouldn't be a viable alternative for those avoiding eggs for ethical reasons. My point is that it will be hard for someone who thinks of chickens as appropriate objects of moral concern to find a farm that shares those values -- whether it's a factory farm or a small homestead one.

Again, not the situation that OP is apparently in. But I do hear the "just look for a place with happy chickens" comment relatively often and it's not a solution for someone committed to vegan ethics.

All I commented was that you can find homestead and humanely collected eggs depending on location. Some locations this likely isn’t easy or an option at all.

You, then proceeded to make comments about killing the chicken that had nothing to do with what I commented on. And I don’t know if they also kill their animals. The one, out of 3 in our community group, that I have a close personal relationship with I suspect does not. Given that her hens and rooster all have names and she treats them as pets I make the assumption she is very attached to them. I’ve never asked though.

And I never made a “happy chickens” comment.

I know you didn't, but the conversation you entered began with someone encouraging those with ethical concerns that prevented them from eating eggs to seek out "happy chickens." This conversation began in that context and that is what I was responding to.

If you don't know if the people you're buying from kill animals for meat or engage in/support the culling of male chicks, then their existence isn't really relevant to what was being discussed -- sourcing of eggs for people who object to these practices.

I understand they may be a better option for *you* or people who simply wish to avoid some of the more dramatic exploitation involved in factory farming, but that's not what was being discussed.

I've known people (both personally and online) who give their chickens names and seem to treat them very well and still have no particular issues with either supporting the culling of male chicks (either practicing it themselves or supporting businesses that do) or even killing chickens for meat. These aren't mutually exclusive states. People are capable of becoming quite attached to animals even when they're ultimately using them as a means to an end.

You responded to the wrong person it seems then. Since my comment was specifically regarding more options depending on location and that isn’t what you were addressing.

Side note - I asked my friend and she seemed mortified at the idea of eating “her girls”. She is not vegetarian but her chickens are family, just like her dogs apparently

You said my concerns, the specific concerns that I brought up about "happy chickens," would depend on where I live. I'm arguing that isn't the case. Finding people who are selling eggs while practicing ethics compatible with veganism is going to be virtually impossible no matter where you are located.

I'm glad your friend takes good care of the chickens that are in her custody. My statements aren't meant to be an indictment of any individual participating in this system, more pointing out that people participating in this system in any capacity aren't going to be an alternative for people whose objections to animal exploitation lead them to veganism.

Directing vegans to seek out certain types of farming isn't a solution. It isn't that these types of farming aren't available in all areas, it's that a system of chicken farming that doesn't involve chick culling doesn't really exist. Even your friend, who doesn't eat her own chickens, has several hens and just one rooster. That sex distribution is created by human intervention -- either by the supplier or the farmer.