Carnivore Diet: The Antithesis to Veganism

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  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Steakhouse, IME, is easy for low carb or keto.

    I would not think that there was any point to going to a restaurant if one were carnivore. How many steakhouses are organized is that you choose your meat and then the table gets various sides. Bread may well be on the table (as in most restaurants, I generally don't eat it either). I

    So the issue for a carnivore would be that they can't eat the sides. If not being able to eat the whole meal bothers you (I frequently go to restaurants before the theater or symphony so can't take leftovers and half of it gets wasted sometimes. Bummer but hardly unique to carnivores, and if it were a personal side you could ask them not to add it to the plate, even though it would not lower the cost.)

    I wouldn't be surprised if you get comments (from others chomping away at the meat) like "are you sure you don't want these delicious brussels with bacon" or whatever the side is -- creamed spinach, asparagus. That's hardly "vegans being superior," it's people being people.

    Same with those Brazilian places -- lots of meat to fill up on, but you'd have to ignore all the sides.

    If the point of carnivore (which I think it really is in many cases) to have a boring but satisfying enough diet where you won't really ever want to overeat, tempting yourself with a bunch of sides you like might make it harder, which is why I'd think restaurants would be disfavored. Also, assuming you know how to cook meat and get good quality meat, most of the benefit and interest of a restaurant would be gone, as anything interesting they do in preparing a meal or combining flavors would be something you don't want, as most cuisines do include a wide variety of ingredients. Most I go to certainly do have many dishes featuring vegetables, which is why I think people who slam restaurants as unhealthy don't pay attention to the choices or have a narrow view of the restaurants that are out there. (But in any case the restaurants are going to be higher cal than a typical meal, even if they come with lots of veg.)

    Wrong on all accounts. Steakhouse meals are structured so that a steak meal comes with sides and one cannot buy the steak a la carte. I am not talking about appetizers for the whole table, which are a separate item to purchase.

    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    I typically avoid restaurants except in the circumstances described. Sometimes cooking at home is not an option. Example - last week, I had a meeting with a political group at a small local restaurant. I paid quite a bit for a piece of beef brisket as I asked for the sandwich plain, no bun, and no sides... no discount for that either, and I ate more when I came home afterwards. The next day, I had a work lunch at a local restaurant (work paid, so my issue was more about food quantity). Grilled chicken breasts, no fries or bread. I had a tuna pouch I keep stashed at my desk in the afternoon, which helped a bit. The next day, work catered lunch for everyone and had its annual drawing. 2 years ago, I happened to get drawn for the big prize - a TV. I had gone home (I live about 5 min. drive from work). Until my name was drawn, nobody noticed I had skipped. But one need not be present to win. So when my manager was giving me a hard time about skipping, I pointed out that the menu didn't work for me. I didn't make a fuss or ask them to change anything for me, but that is just the facts. This year, I skipped and nobody said anything (they probably didn't notice), nor did I say anything.

    Last week was 3 days where I wasn't traveling, but had potential restaurant challenges. Of those 3 days, I made do with restaurants on 2 that were not as easy to skip. When traveling by car, I can carry some amounts of meat that doesn't require cooking and eat McDonald's beef patties mostly otherwise. When traveling for work, I care less about the cost side, but end up buying snacks to supplement the relatively smaller food amount. The exception is when I travel to our corp. office that is in an area with a lot of vegetarians and vegans. I normally don't have time to go anywhere for lunch and the on-site cafeteria caters to the common interest. In that case, I stop at a Wal-Mart between the airport and the hotel/destination town to get meat snacks that don't require refrigeration and I just eat that for lunches.

    I don't eat carnivore to be bland nor to limit intake, though both end up being true whether intended or not. I eat it for better BG management and because I feel so much better (less GI distress, more alert).

    You're following a niche diet. I had the exact same issues when I was vegan, plus a lot of ribbing and some family bullying on top of it. Don't go out of your way to tell people you're carnivore and they won't say anything (no thank you is fine the explanation is inviting commentary). Also most of the cost of a meal is the meat, you would not be getting a big discount because you didn't eat extremely cheap ingredients like bread and potatoes. It sucks but nothing you're describing is particularly bad or out of the ordinary for anyone who is veg or has a major allergy, nor is it a sign that carnivores are being judged and ostracized en mass.

    ^This. When I'm offered meat, I simply say "no thank you", I don't add that I'm a vegetarian, because that's the remark that invites a discussion.

    Announcing that one doesn't eat plants is opening oneself up for comments. Just quietly going about eating meat and tactfully saying "no thank you" doesn't.

    That's true in some situations, but when we are talking about co-workers where there is food brought in fairly regularly, there is a benefit to explaining. By answering the way I do, people have finally learned to stop coming around and offering such foods to me. It took a long time for people to believe me (not sure why), but I finally don't have people stopping by with cookies, donuts, fruit, or whatever other plant products they happened to bring in that day.

    Why is it a problem to be offered things in the first place? I'm not following how this is a problem.

    For some, like you, it may not be a bother at all. I'm not sure if it is because I'm such an introvert or if there is some other reason. I just find work to be less stressful when people leave me alone.
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
    edited December 2018
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Steakhouse, IME, is easy for low carb or keto.

    I would not think that there was any point to going to a restaurant if one were carnivore. How many steakhouses are organized is that you choose your meat and then the table gets various sides. Bread may well be on the table (as in most restaurants, I generally don't eat it either). I

    So the issue for a carnivore would be that they can't eat the sides. If not being able to eat the whole meal bothers you (I frequently go to restaurants before the theater or symphony so can't take leftovers and half of it gets wasted sometimes. Bummer but hardly unique to carnivores, and if it were a personal side you could ask them not to add it to the plate, even though it would not lower the cost.)

    I wouldn't be surprised if you get comments (from others chomping away at the meat) like "are you sure you don't want these delicious brussels with bacon" or whatever the side is -- creamed spinach, asparagus. That's hardly "vegans being superior," it's people being people.

    Same with those Brazilian places -- lots of meat to fill up on, but you'd have to ignore all the sides.

    If the point of carnivore (which I think it really is in many cases) to have a boring but satisfying enough diet where you won't really ever want to overeat, tempting yourself with a bunch of sides you like might make it harder, which is why I'd think restaurants would be disfavored. Also, assuming you know how to cook meat and get good quality meat, most of the benefit and interest of a restaurant would be gone, as anything interesting they do in preparing a meal or combining flavors would be something you don't want, as most cuisines do include a wide variety of ingredients. Most I go to certainly do have many dishes featuring vegetables, which is why I think people who slam restaurants as unhealthy don't pay attention to the choices or have a narrow view of the restaurants that are out there. (But in any case the restaurants are going to be higher cal than a typical meal, even if they come with lots of veg.)

    Wrong on all accounts. Steakhouse meals are structured so that a steak meal comes with sides and one cannot buy the steak a la carte. I am not talking about appetizers for the whole table, which are a separate item to purchase.

    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    I typically avoid restaurants except in the circumstances described. Sometimes cooking at home is not an option. Example - last week, I had a meeting with a political group at a small local restaurant. I paid quite a bit for a piece of beef brisket as I asked for the sandwich plain, no bun, and no sides... no discount for that either, and I ate more when I came home afterwards. The next day, I had a work lunch at a local restaurant (work paid, so my issue was more about food quantity). Grilled chicken breasts, no fries or bread. I had a tuna pouch I keep stashed at my desk in the afternoon, which helped a bit. The next day, work catered lunch for everyone and had its annual drawing. 2 years ago, I happened to get drawn for the big prize - a TV. I had gone home (I live about 5 min. drive from work). Until my name was drawn, nobody noticed I had skipped. But one need not be present to win. So when my manager was giving me a hard time about skipping, I pointed out that the menu didn't work for me. I didn't make a fuss or ask them to change anything for me, but that is just the facts. This year, I skipped and nobody said anything (they probably didn't notice), nor did I say anything.

    Last week was 3 days where I wasn't traveling, but had potential restaurant challenges. Of those 3 days, I made do with restaurants on 2 that were not as easy to skip. When traveling by car, I can carry some amounts of meat that doesn't require cooking and eat McDonald's beef patties mostly otherwise. When traveling for work, I care less about the cost side, but end up buying snacks to supplement the relatively smaller food amount. The exception is when I travel to our corp. office that is in an area with a lot of vegetarians and vegans. I normally don't have time to go anywhere for lunch and the on-site cafeteria caters to the common interest. In that case, I stop at a Wal-Mart between the airport and the hotel/destination town to get meat snacks that don't require refrigeration and I just eat that for lunches.

    I don't eat carnivore to be bland nor to limit intake, though both end up being true whether intended or not. I eat it for better BG management and because I feel so much better (less GI distress, more alert).

    You're following a niche diet. I had the exact same issues when I was vegan, plus a lot of ribbing and some family bullying on top of it. Don't go out of your way to tell people you're carnivore and they won't say anything (no thank you is fine the explanation is inviting commentary). Also most of the cost of a meal is the meat, you would not be getting a big discount because you didn't eat extremely cheap ingredients like bread and potatoes. It sucks but nothing you're describing is particularly bad or out of the ordinary for anyone who is veg or has a major allergy, nor is it a sign that carnivores are being judged and ostracized en mass.

    ^This. When I'm offered meat, I simply say "no thank you", I don't add that I'm a vegetarian, because that's the remark that invites a discussion.

    Announcing that one doesn't eat plants is opening oneself up for comments. Just quietly going about eating meat and tactfully saying "no thank you" doesn't.

    That's true in some situations, but when we are talking about co-workers where there is food brought in fairly regularly, there is a benefit to explaining. By answering the way I do, people have finally learned to stop coming around and offering such foods to me. It took a long time for people to believe me (not sure why), but I finally don't have people stopping by with cookies, donuts, fruit, or whatever other plant products they happened to bring in that day.

    Why is it a problem to be offered things in the first place? I'm not following how this is a problem.

    For some, like you, it may not be a bother at all. I'm not sure if it is because I'm such an introvert or if there is some other reason. I just find work to be less stressful when people leave me alone.

    I am an introvert. That's my problem, not someone else's. Same with my dietary choices.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    edited December 2018
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    The beginning of this thread was months before hunting season. We did not have venison our geese in the freezer at that time. Those animals are small and won't last a year.

    I realize non hunters would not know that.

    You're painting an incomplete picture of the source of your food when trying to make a counterpoint to the people who give you flak about the environmental impact of it. That incomplete portrait is disingenuous on your part and suits your narrative at the time.

    We had no game in the freezer in July. He struck out hunting last year. I should have mentioned that?

    I also eat dairy, lamb, fish, shellfish, crustaceans, pig, chicken, turkey, and various types of eggs. I mostly eat beef.
    Victim? How? By noticing judgement? How would that make anyone a victim? I have no idea where you got that from. :confused:

    By inferring judgement. You eat a diet that's outside the mainstream, and outside the mainstream of nutritional guidance. People are going to comment on it because it's different. Commenting != judgement.

    I still don't see how noticing judgement makes me a victim.
    What? I feel outside the mainstream and that "undertone" comes across in my posts? I am outside the mainstream. LOL The undertone probably only shows up in response to some peoples' posts....

    I don't understand where you're coming from, truly. If you are happy with your diet, and secure in your choices, there's no need for undertone at all. There's no need to paint incomplete pictures. There's no need to try for silly reaches like trying to make the point that growing plant crops is bad environmentally to counter the argument that cattle farming is bad for the environment. There's no need to try to "prove" universal benefits to how you eat. There's no need to validate anything beyond your own n=1.

    I am disingenuous because I did not mention the lack of venison in my freezer? And that relates to someone saying that plant growing is bad for the environment? :confused:

    As mentioned, the undertone is probably in response to some members and their posts.
    I don't own it? I'm too wishy washy on my stance? I let others sway me from my beliefs too much?

    :D

    I said *my* stance as a vegetarian was wishy washy considering the stances of other vegetarians. Wasn't implying anything about you. I was trying to demonstrate that it's okay to sit comfortably in n=1 just because it works for you for whatever reason you're happy with.

    I know you said that. I should have typed loosey goosey to avoid confusion.

    I'm fine with my n=1. Completely.

    Edited for quotes

    I'm content to let all this drop because I want to go lift weights and I don't think we'd ever reach consensus. Except for one thing - you're the person who implied agriculture was bad for the environment as a counter to cattle farming being bad for the environment. It was a silly argument.


    I wrote that current agricultural practices damage the environment and could be improved upon greatly, and not that growing plant crops is (always) environmentally bad.

    But I agree that we should let this silly argument drop. Have fun with your weights.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    LiLee2018 wrote: »
    I'm part of a couple of carnivore groups and some folks will give vegans a run for their money in terms of how annoying they are about the diet. lol
    I mostly eat meat, but I consider myself keto since I still have some veggies and use sugar free creamer/almond milk in my coffee.
    Carnivore seems to be helping a lot of people. /shrugs

    Yeah, I've certainly met some carnivores who are simply dripping with moral superiority (as well as many who don't). It's going to happen in any group, there are going to be some people who want to feel superior.

    It's nothing inherent to carnivorism or veganism. It's just a characteristic that some people have. A couple of people in particular that I know were vegans and then went to paleo or carnivore. They expressed moral superiority in both ways of life because that's just who they are. If five years from now they're eating in a completely new fashion, I won't be surprised to see them attributing a higher moral value to *that*.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    As someone with a totally different style of eating, I've found that a simple "No thanks," is often easier when I'm declining food in a casual relationship. Most co-workers don't really care *why* you don't want a grape (or why I don't want a piece of beef jerky), they're just offering out of politeness. It really only needs to get more in-depth if the relationship is more significant.

    (Feel free to disregard my advice, it's just something I've learned in 10+ years of turning down food at work).

  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    As someone with a totally different style of eating, I've found that a simple "No thanks," is often easier when I'm declining food in a casual relationship. Most co-workers don't really care *why* you don't want a grape (or why I don't want a piece of beef jerky), they're just offering out of politeness. It really only needs to get more in-depth if the relationship is more significant.

    (Feel free to disregard my advice, it's just something I've learned in 10+ years of turning down food at work).

    I tried that for awhile and continue to do so in some circumstances (such as groups where I only see people maybe once per quarter). With co-workers at my home location, it is common enough that giving a reason helps so that people are not coming by almost every day with something they've brought in. I didn't count, but could estimate that I've probably made that explanation around 100 times and it's probably saved being bothered 300-400 more times with additional benefits continuing to come without additional effort.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    As someone with a totally different style of eating, I've found that a simple "No thanks," is often easier when I'm declining food in a casual relationship. Most co-workers don't really care *why* you don't want a grape (or why I don't want a piece of beef jerky), they're just offering out of politeness. It really only needs to get more in-depth if the relationship is more significant.

    (Feel free to disregard my advice, it's just something I've learned in 10+ years of turning down food at work).

    I tried that for awhile and continue to do so in some circumstances (such as groups where I only see people maybe once per quarter). With co-workers at my home location, it is common enough that giving a reason helps so that people are not coming by almost every day with something they've brought in. I didn't count, but could estimate that I've probably made that explanation around 100 times and it's probably saved being bothered 300-400 more times with additional benefits continuing to come without additional effort.

    Cool, I didn't mean to come across like I was second-guessing your judgment. You obviously know your own workplace dynamic best.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    The responses I get are most often from omnivores, but that is the most populous group. It often goes something like this:
    Omnivore co-worker, fellow member of various groups, etc: "Would you like a donut, grapes, etc.?
    Me: "No thanks, I don't eat plants."
    Omnivore: "You don't eat plants?! That is really unhealthy. You need plants to live."
    And so on... yes, this conversation happens even in Iowa. You can call me a liar if it helps you feel better, but I have had this conversation almost in those exact words many more times than I can remember each conversation individually.

    As someone with a totally different style of eating, I've found that a simple "No thanks," is often easier when I'm declining food in a casual relationship. Most co-workers don't really care *why* you don't want a grape (or why I don't want a piece of beef jerky), they're just offering out of politeness. It really only needs to get more in-depth if the relationship is more significant.

    (Feel free to disregard my advice, it's just something I've learned in 10+ years of turning down food at work).

    I tried that for awhile and continue to do so in some circumstances (such as groups where I only see people maybe once per quarter). With co-workers at my home location, it is common enough that giving a reason helps so that people are not coming by almost every day with something they've brought in. I didn't count, but could estimate that I've probably made that explanation around 100 times and it's probably saved being bothered 300-400 more times with additional benefits continuing to come without additional effort.

    I find telling helps with people you see often, too. Many like to try and accommodate you. I have people who make a point of coming around to me with meat trays. Very thoughtful of them. :)