Intermittent fasting: sounds bad
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texasrigdiver wrote: »hers a few scientific studies that mention autophagy/intermittent fasting and keto/atkins/paleo type low carb diet plans. copy and paste anyone of them into your browser and read up- become knowledgeable and responsible, have an open mind because if you already know it all, then you cant learn anything.
(I think if we all mice, we would already be cured of every disease...not a big fan of animal studies because I'm not convinced of the relationship of those disease and their cures being effective on humans...?)
1. Volek JS., et al. “Comparison of a Very Low-Carbohydrate and Low-Fat Diet on Fasting Lipids, LDL Subclasses, Insulin Resistance and Postprandial Lipemic Responses in Overweight Women.” J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr.
2. Cappello G., et al. “Ketogenic Enteral Nutrition as a Treatment for Obesity: Short-Term and Long-Term Results From 19,000 Patients.” Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012 Oct 30.
26. Sgarbi G., et al. “Mitochondria hyperfusion and elevated autophagic activity are key mechanisms for cellular bioenergetics preservation in centenarians.” Aging. April 2014
Komatsu M., et al. “Impairment of starvation-induced and constitutive autophagy in Atg7-deficient mice.” The Journal of Cell Biology. May 9, 2005.
2. “The Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet.” Nobelförsamlingen.
3. Longo V., et al. “Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications.” Cell Metab. 2014 February
4. Ibid. 5. Su Z., et al. “Apoptosis, autophagy, necroptosis, and cancer metastasis.” Molecular Cancer. 2015.
5. Guo Z., et al. “Intermittent fasting and caloric restriction ameliorate age-related behavioral deficits in the triple-transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer’s disease.” Neurobiology of Disease. 2007.
6. Berliocchi L., et al. “Autophagy impairment in a mouse model of neuropathic pain.” Molecular Pain. 2011.
8. rne B., et al. “Usefulness of Routine Periodic Fasting to Lower Risk of Coronary Artery Disease among Patients Undergoing Coronary Angiography.” Am J Cardiol. 2008 October 1.
9. Lindqvist LM., et al. “Current questions and possible controversies in autophagy.” Cell Death Discovery. 2015. 10. Horne B., et al. “Usefulness of Routine Periodic Fasting to Lower Risk of Coronary Artery Disease among Patients Undergoing Coronary Angiography.” Am J Cardiol. 2008 October 1.
10. Aggarwal S., et al. “Differential regulation of autophagy and mitophagy in pulmonary diseases.” Am J Physiol Lung Cell Mol Physiol. July 8, 2016.
11. Johnson J., et al. “Alternate Day Calorie Restriction Improves Clinical Findings and Reduces Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Overweight Adults with Moderate Asthma.” Free Radic Biol Med. 2007 Mar 1.
12. Gorman C., et al. “Cellular Inflammation: The Secret Killer (Article). Health: The Fires Within.” Inflammation Research Foundation. 2018.
16. Johnson J., et al. “Alternate Day Calorie Restriction Improves Clinical Findings and Reduces Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Overweight Adults with Moderate Asthma.” Free Radic Biol Med. 2007 Mar 1. 17. Wood L., et al. “Identification of neurotoxic cytokines by profiling Alzheimer’s disease tissues and neuron culture viability screening.” Scientific Reports. 13 November 2015.
18. Huberman M. “NHA president gets up close and personal at TrueNorth Health Center.” TrueNorth Health Center. January 14, 2017.
19. Rossner P., et al. “Plasma protein carbonyl levels and breast cancer risk.” J Cell. Mol. Med. 2007.
20. Napoli N. “Levels of Ceramides in the Blood Help Predict Cardiovascular Events.” American College of Cardiology. Press Release. Mar 09, 2017.
22. Lesica N. “Intermittent fasting could help tackle diabetes — here’s the science.” The Conversation. August 21, 2017.
23. Szendroedi J, Phielix E, Roden M. “The role of mitochondria in insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes mellitus.”Nature Reviews Endocrinology 8, 92-103. Feb 2012.
24. Kim J, Wei Y, Sowers JR. “Role of Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Insulin Resistance.” Circ Res. 2008 Feb 29; 102(4): 401–414.
25. Wegman M., et al. “Practicality of Intermittent Fasting in Humans and its Effect on Oxidative Stress and Genes Related to Aging and Metabolism.” Rejuvenation Research. 2014.
26. Katsuyasu Kouda, Masayuki Iki. “Beneficial effects of mild stress (hormetic effects): dietary restriction and health.” J Physiol Anthropol. 2010.
27. Newport M., et al. “A new way to produce hyperketonemia: use of ketone ester in a case of Alzheimer’s.” Alzheimers Dement. 2015 January.
28. Newport MT, VanItallie et al. “A new way to produce hyperketonemia: use of ketone ester in a case of Alzheimer’s.” Alzheimer’s & dementia : the journal of the Alzheimer’s Association. 2015.
29. “2017 Alzheimer’s Disease Facts and Figures.” Alzheimer’s Association.
30. Freake HC, Govoni KE, et al. “Actions and interactions of thyroid hormone and zinc status in growing rats.” J Nutr. 2001 Apr.
31. Cunnane S, Nugent S, et al. “Brain fuel metabolism, aging, and Alzheimer’s disease.” J Nutr. 2011 Jan.
32. He C, Sumpter R JR., et al. “Exercise induces autophagy in peripheral tissues and in the brain.” Autophagy. 2012 Oct.
33. Adapted from: von Ardenne M. “Oxygen Multistep Therapy,” Thieme, 1990, p144.
You're promoting the idea that IF increases autophagy and since I'm sure you've read all these references, please pick one or two out of this Gish gallop that you think proves that. Also when you copy and paste, you should give credit to where you got the info from.10 -
I'm glad you posted! I had low thoughts about fasting but my doctor said... And so I try not to eat from 7 pm until 10 am. Iced water is okay anytime and my other doctor said ... so I try to drink a lot. It does seem to be working okay-not as hungry and eating to maximize the foods I am getting. I am not starving like I thought nor is my body making noise! I am not sure if I will increase fast hours other than Fast Sunday once a month (My church's belief).1
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texasrigdiver wrote: »one of the reasons I posted actual scientific studies is because these are the sources I trust. I'm always concerned of the motivations of authors or bloggers that don't quote sources, its just what they think, what are their qualifications? what are their motivations? ego feeding to come across as an expert?
I cant tell anyone anything other than my personal experiences unless you need help rebuilding an air compressor. but if a company is paying me to twist a story then who knows what's true and fake news?
but if someone is looking for articles rather than peer reviewed scientific studies.
Here's one I like: https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy
I'm starting a keto diet with my wife tomorrow. I also want to fast 2 days a week, Mon and Fri...but still, even with all the scientific evidence. I know people do it all the time, I'm just kind of concerned-Hmmm afraid of failing? what If I succeed and works great for me just like it works great for so many others....?
Dietdoctor is not a reputable source of information.9 -
texasrigdiver wrote: »one of the reasons I posted actual scientific studies is because these are the sources I trust. I'm always concerned of the motivations of authors or bloggers that don't quote sources, its just what they think, what are their qualifications? what are their motivations? ego feeding to come across as an expert?
I cant tell anyone anything other than my personal experiences unless you need help rebuilding an air compressor. but if a company is paying me to twist a story then who knows what's true and fake news?
but if someone is looking for articles rather than peer reviewed scientific studies.
Here's one I like: https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy
I'm starting a keto diet with my wife tomorrow. I also want to fast 2 days a week, Mon and Fri...but still, even with all the scientific evidence. I know people do it all the time, I'm just kind of concerned-Hmmm afraid of failing? what If I succeed and works great for me just like it works great for so many others....?
An article by Fung on DietDoctor.com? OK, I think I know where you're coming from.
I did, BTW, look up a number of your links (some are scientific studies, some are not). They were about as definitive as my PP outlined, concerning autophagy specifically, which is what I was interested in investigating further.
I hope your n =1 experiments are very successful for you!
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amusedmonkey wrote: »What's wrong with just, you know, doing IF because it makes weight loss easier for the person who is happier on it? Why does it need a fantastical hook to make someone feel special about following it? If you want a hook, a large percentage of people are unable to sustain a diet. If intermittent fasting makes dieting more sustainable for you, you're one of the special few.
Because people crave ecstatic quasi-religious fervor even more than they crave hyperpalatable foods?
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amusedmonkey wrote: »What's wrong with just, you know, doing IF because it makes weight loss easier for the person who is happier on it? Why does it need a fantastical hook to make someone feel special about following it? If you want a hook, a large percentage of people are unable to sustain a diet. If intermittent fasting makes dieting more sustainable for you, you're one of the special few.
Because people crave ecstatic quasi-religious fervor even more than they crave hyperpalatable foods?
Its validation that they are doing the best possible diet out there. But reality is, there isnt a single solution that is best.12 -
Everyone does Intermittent fasting to some degree - usually about 8-10 hours a day (also known as sleep). There's nothing wrong with eating only in specific time windows so long as one is getting sufficient calories (1200 for women, 1500 for men is the general rule as a minimum).
It doesn't matter if we have 10 small meals a day or 1 large one, in the end it's all about calories and nutrients. Calories dictate weight change, nutrients in order to function properly.
IF works great for some people. I'm not one of them. I just do IIFMC (basically eat whenever and whatever I want so long as I stay in a deficit), many people have issues with this as it does force you to only have 1 cookie, or 5 chips in order to stay in a deficit.
There isn't one diet that works best for everyone.8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »What's wrong with just, you know, doing IF because it makes weight loss easier for the person who is happier on it? Why does it need a fantastical hook to make someone feel special about following it? If you want a hook, a large percentage of people are unable to sustain a diet. If intermittent fasting makes dieting more sustainable for you, you're one of the special few.
Because people crave ecstatic quasi-religious fervor even more than they crave hyperpalatable foods?
Its validation that they are doing the best possible diet out there. But reality is, there isnt a single solution that is best.
I almost feel like it's a necessary part of the learning curve...
1 - Start off doing something...
2 - Then do what's "best" or "optimal"
3 - Settle into doing what works.14 -
HoneyBadger155 wrote: »I've recently decided to start going on (my own variation of) an IF eating pattern.
I naturally do not like breakfast. I always want to enjoy a nice, full dinner. I don't need much at lunch. This pattern works well in ALL areas of my life from "normal" work weeks, to traveling, to track days, to race weekends.
Sure, meal prep and calorie counting work - when I'm at home and have the time to do it, BUT, Mar-Oct, that doesn't work so well when I'm on the road and at the track 3 out of 7 days more weeks than not and still trying to work a full week plus my side hustle.
I chose not to do a true fast in that I still have my morning coffee+creamer once I start work, and I allow myself a small plant/nut/protein based snack (~150-200cal) in the afternoon if I'm getting hungry.
Then, I don't worry about dinner - I enjoy what I feel like eating that day, and even fast food won't exceed my calories for the day (not that it's common, but just an example).
I've only just finished my first couple weeks of this, but the scale has started to drop and after a few days (since this tends to follow my natural eating patter anyways) my hunger adjusted and is very tolerable at this point, unlike trying to eat 3-5 small meals a day that always left me hungry.
Also, my morning workouts are not suffering in any way, either, whereas on the small meal plan, if I was in much of a noticeable deficit, my workouts started to suffer within a couple days. The full dinner leaves me with enough fuel that I've actually been feeling really good during my workouts. Energy during the day hasn't suffered one bit either, in fact, if anything, I've felt more energetic most of the day.
I'm pretty much doing the exact same thing you are. I am losing weight each week, not obsessing over food, not hungry during the morning or lunch anymore. Eating foods I LOVE for dinner and the weight is dropping off. I LOVE IT.4 -
I have fasted a couple of times (one for blood work) but I have a problem with it. Breakfast is my favorite meal of the day so I doubt it will ever have a major place in my eating pattern. If I wasn't working I could easily move breakfast to 10 o'clock though.3
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kommodevaran wrote: »The unhealthy thing about IF is to think about not eating all the time as something unhealthy or extreme, and needing a term for it to make it palatable (sorry but not sorry for the silly pun).
Yes ^
I know a lot of people who can't stomach breakfast. They've NEVER called it 16:8. Some are slim some are fat.
I love eating breakfast. But because it's trendy I'll start eating like them? That's what's "unhealthy" about it IMO - this fascination with following trends instead of figuring out what way of eating works for you.3 -
tuftedghostdeer wrote: »HoneyBadger155 wrote: »I've recently decided to start going on (my own variation of) an IF eating pattern.
I naturally do not like breakfast. I always want to enjoy a nice, full dinner. I don't need much at lunch. This pattern works well in ALL areas of my life from "normal" work weeks, to traveling, to track days, to race weekends.
Sure, meal prep and calorie counting work - when I'm at home and have the time to do it, BUT, Mar-Oct, that doesn't work so well when I'm on the road and at the track 3 out of 7 days more weeks than not and still trying to work a full week plus my side hustle.
I chose not to do a true fast in that I still have my morning coffee+creamer once I start work, and I allow myself a small plant/nut/protein based snack (~150-200cal) in the afternoon if I'm getting hungry.
Then, I don't worry about dinner - I enjoy what I feel like eating that day, and even fast food won't exceed my calories for the day (not that it's common, but just an example).
I've only just finished my first couple weeks of this, but the scale has started to drop and after a few days (since this tends to follow my natural eating patter anyways) my hunger adjusted and is very tolerable at this point, unlike trying to eat 3-5 small meals a day that always left me hungry.
Also, my morning workouts are not suffering in any way, either, whereas on the small meal plan, if I was in much of a noticeable deficit, my workouts started to suffer within a couple days. The full dinner leaves me with enough fuel that I've actually been feeling really good during my workouts. Energy during the day hasn't suffered one bit either, in fact, if anything, I've felt more energetic most of the day.
I'm pretty much doing the exact same thing you are. I am losing weight each week, not obsessing over food, not hungry during the morning or lunch anymore. Eating foods I LOVE for dinner and the weight is dropping off. I LOVE IT.
This sounds more like OMAD than IF. I could cram all my calories into one meal a day relatively easily. Nutrients? Nosomuch.2 -
This just reminded me of my wife. She never ate breakfast and I always told her it was the most important meal of the day. So if IF is beneficial she had it right all along. And she reminds me of this daily.1
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amusedmonkey wrote: »What's wrong with just, you know, doing IF because it makes weight loss easier for the person who is happier on it? Why does it need a fantastical hook to make someone feel special about following it? If you want a hook, a large percentage of people are unable to sustain a diet. If intermittent fasting makes dieting more sustainable for you, you're one of the special few.
Because people crave ecstatic quasi-religious fervor even more than they crave hyperpalatable foods?
Its validation that they are doing the best possible diet out there. But reality is, there isnt a single solution that is best.
I almost feel like it's a necessary part of the learning curve...
1 - Start off doing something...
2 - Then do what's "best" or "optimal"
3 - Settle into doing what works.
This is completely brilliant. Trouble is, I don't think it'll click for anyone who hasn't been through it. 0 -
I do it because I don't want to eat in the morning. End of story. I don't follow it religiously, if I happen to want to eat something because I am hungry at 8am, I will.3
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nutmegoreo wrote: »elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
You need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight. It doesn't matter of you eat those in 1 hour or in 16 hours. Some people find that IF leaves them feeling less hungry, because they get one or two big meals during a shorter period of time rather than smaller meals throughout the whole day. There is nothing magical about it.
well if you ignore autophagy and hormonal changes you are right.23 -
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lowcarbmale wrote: »nutmegoreo wrote: »elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
You need to be in a calorie deficit to lose weight. It doesn't matter of you eat those in 1 hour or in 16 hours. Some people find that IF leaves them feeling less hungry, because they get one or two big meals during a shorter period of time rather than smaller meals throughout the whole day. There is nothing magical about it.
well if you ignore autophagy and hormonal changes you are right.
Autphagy happens with caloric restriction. But I would love to see human studies as compared to normal caloric restriction.4 -
lowcarbmale wrote: »
To be clear, I do IF, and have for decades. Long before it became a 'thing.' I'm just not a person who is hungry in the morning, so, aside from my cup of coffee, my first meal of the day happens in the early afternoon. It's when all of a sudden a simple concept of using intermittent fasting as a means for some people to regulate caloric intake suddenly starts being given "magic" status that gets my back up.
Consume less than you burn in a day and you'll lose weight. However you manage to achieve that. It's not magic, it's science.
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